Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Sani]

Tim, you need some MILK! I just watched your most recent YouTube video and your balding has accelerated 100-fold during this low vitamin A quest. By the end of this thing, you might be the new Jason Statham, if you hit the gym more frequently.

 

[Dr. B]

I see the link is broken but it was written by Dr William Kaufman, he used to treat arthritis with megadoses of niacinamide, up to 2-4 g per day. Perhaps the nicotinamide deficiency symptoms he noticed was worsened arthritis? I've noticed that people overdosing on vitamin A often report having stiff joints.

but I wonder , niacinamide may be impacting much more nutrients than just vitamin A. doesnt it also lower phosphate. possibly more nutrients

Tim, you need some MILK! I just watched your most recent YouTube video and your balding has accelerated 100-fold during this low vitamin A quest. By the end of this thing, you might be the new Jason Statham, if you hit the gym more frequently.

who is Tim? do you say milk for balding due to its protein and calcium?

 

[Sani]

who is Tim? do you say milk for balding due to its protein and calcium?

Member tim333. Calcium is very important for so many things and milk is the best source so you should not fear milk.

 

[SOMO]

Why does everyone here focus on lactose when dairy intolerance is being mentioned. What if you’re lactase persistent but allergic to casein? Most people’s problem is the protein.

I wasn't implying lactose is the only issue in milk and I know Casein is an issue for some, but far less than lactose.

Casein and Gluten are inherently more difficult to digest because of the Proline residues.
If you're not digesting casein, it also means you're probably not digesting gluten well either. Our digestive enzymes are poor at cleaving amino acid chains with Proline. Basically, if you claim to be reacting to Gluten, you must also be reacting to Casein and vice versa because those 2 proteins have the same problem when it comes to digestion.

The reason babies don't have issue with Casein is because babies absorb peptides in their whole form and do not need to break down proteins into individual amino acids. From what I understand about baby physiology, when the baby's intestine is fully formed this ability to digest proteins "as is" stops.

Conveniently, most lactobacilli can digest these proline chains (the bacteria have the enzymes to cleave proline,) so consuming yogurt or raw milk or raw cheeses once in a while should keep the digestion of these difficult-to-digest working, even though I am against supplementing with probiotics. There are also aspergillus-derived proteolytic enzymes like DPPIV which are present in many "Digestive Enzyme" supplements that are very effective at digesting Proline. But RP has spoken against digestive enzymes from mold, so I would stick with consuming yogurt from time to time, which seems to help my digestion personally.

I think a lot can be done to make milk fully digestible. In my opinion there is no reason to avoid dairy, and if someone has issues digesting dairy they should be taking steps to make it digestible.

 

[somuch4food]

I wasn't implying lactose is the only issue in milk and I know Casein is an issue for some, but far less than lactose.

Casein and Gluten are inherently more difficult to digest because of the Proline residues.
If you're not digesting casein, it also means you're probably not digesting gluten well either. Our digestive enzymes are poor at cleaving amino acid chains with Proline. Basically, if you claim to be reacting to Gluten, you must also be reacting to Casein and vice versa because those 2 proteins have the same problem when it comes to digestion.

The reason babies don't have issue with Casein is because babies absorb peptides in their whole form and do not need to break down proteins into individual amino acids. From what I understand about baby physiology, when the baby's intestine is fully formed this ability to digest proteins "as is" stops.

Conveniently, most lactobacilli can digest these proline chains (the bacteria have the enzymes to cleave proline,) so consuming yogurt or raw milk or raw cheeses once in a while should keep the digestion of these difficult-to-digest working, even though I am against supplementing with probiotics. There are also aspergillus-derived proteolytic enzymes like DPPIV which are present in many "Digestive Enzyme" supplements that are very effective at digesting Proline. But RP has spoken against digestive enzymes from mold, so I would stick with consuming yogurt from time to time, which seems to help my digestion personally.

I think a lot can be done to make milk fully digestible. In my opinion there is no reason to avoid dairy, and if someone has issues digesting dairy they should be taking steps to make it digestible.

I didn't know casein had the proline problem too. Interesting. Does the proline relate to the opioids like peptides often mentioned for casein and gluten?

 

[Dr. B]

I wasn't implying lactose is the only issue in milk and I know Casein is an issue for some, but far less than lactose.

Casein and Gluten are inherently more difficult to digest because of the Proline residues.
If you're not digesting casein, it also means you're probably not digesting gluten well either. Our digestive enzymes are poor at cleaving amino acid chains with Proline. Basically, if you claim to be reacting to Gluten, you must also be reacting to Casein and vice versa because those 2 proteins have the same problem when it comes to digestion.

The reason babies don't have issue with Casein is because babies absorb peptides in their whole form and do not need to break down proteins into individual amino acids. From what I understand about baby physiology, when the baby's intestine is fully formed this ability to digest proteins "as is" stops.

Conveniently, most lactobacilli can digest these proline chains (the bacteria have the enzymes to cleave proline,) so consuming yogurt or raw milk or raw cheeses once in a while should keep the digestion of these difficult-to-digest working, even though I am against supplementing with probiotics. There are also aspergillus-derived proteolytic enzymes like DPPIV which are present in many "Digestive Enzyme" supplements that are very effective at digesting Proline. But RP has spoken against digestive enzymes from mold, so I would stick with consuming yogurt from time to time, which seems to help my digestion personally.

I think a lot can be done to make milk fully digestible. In my opinion there is no reason to avoid dairy, and if someone has issues digesting dairy they should be taking steps to make it digestible.

does A2 protein help/make a difference ? like 100% A2a2 milk, 100% grass fed, non homogenized, organic, low temp pasteurized?

 

[julcreutz]

I feel like their logic is backwards. If retinol and t4 share the same transport protein then it seems to me that an excess of retinol would cause hypothyroidism. Retinol taking up all the seats on the bus.

I've been experimenting with a low vitamin A diet for the past month and I am feeling warmer than I have in a long time. I will post a proper update after 2 months.

Yes, I feel the exact same way.
I actually have a warm body temperature between meals. Before, I would get cold much quicker.

 

[SOMO]

does A2 protein help/make a difference ? like 100% A2a2 milk, 100% grass fed, non homogenized, organic, low temp pasteurized?

Yes, A2 does make a difference and is superior.

Goats and sheep's milk is even better.

 

[Dr. B]

Yes, A2 does make a difference and is superior.

Goats and sheep's milk is even better.

what makes those better? btw i think sheeps milk is much higher fat and protein per the same cup... i think it has double the fat and protein or something

 

[SOMO]

what makes those better? btw i think sheeps milk is much higher fat and protein per the same cup... i think it has double the fat and protein or something

Those hard to digest opiod compounds are not present in goats and sheep's milk. I don't have access to sheep's milk and goats milk is good, but not worth the extra price.

But the goal for everyone IMO should be to repair digestion until they CAN drink regular grocery store milk and they don't have to purchase any of these "fancier" milks.

The fat:protein content in milk is good regardless of which animal it comes from, because it has to feed and build a young animal into a young adult. The fat in dairy is also beneficial and if someone is following RP principles, their diet will be pretty low-fat as is. Maybe this is a concern if someone is trying to lose weight, but I don't track my calories or how many grams of fat I eat.

 

[Dr. B]

Those hard to digest opiod compounds are not present in goats and sheep's milk. I don't have access to sheep's milk and goats milk is good, but not worth the extra price.

But the goal for everyone IMO should be to repair digestion until they CAN drink regular grocery store milk and they don't have to purchase any of these "fancier" milks.

The fat:protein content in milk is good regardless of which animal it comes from, because it has to feed and build a young animal into a young adult. The fat in dairy is also beneficial and if someone is following RP principles, their diet will be pretty low-fat as is. Maybe this is a concern if someone is trying to lose weight, but I don't track my calories or how many grams of fat I eat.

are those Opioid compounds still present in 100% A2 jersey or guernsey milk too?
yes true. but these grocery store milks, usually dont have just milk but also added vitamins alongside, propylene glycol/polysorbate 80.

 

[Missenger]

The general consensus for a lot of people including Haidut is just sticking to low-fat cheeses or the few hard grassfed ones if you can't get a good source for liquid dairy.

 

[Dr. B]

The general consensus for a lot of people including Haidut is just sticking to low-fat cheeses or the few hard grassfed ones if you can't get a good source for liquid dairy.

is there a big difference with low temp pasteurized milk (145 degrees for 30 minutes) vs raw milk

 

[Apple]

is there a big difference with low temp pasteurized milk (145 degrees for 30 minutes) vs raw milk

As I understand 1% store-bought is totally fine. I usually warm it a bit.
I tried to bring it to boil thinking it will be easier to digest it but I was getting elbow pain every time... So I'm against boiling milk.
After trying different kinds of milk I realised there is no big difference, just choose which tastes better. The system will adapt to any kind.

 

[Sani]

"Based upon our extensive research, we believe that most people require 5,000 IU to 10,000 IU of supplemental vitamin D each day to achieve optimal blood level status. The need for preformed vitamin A, on the other hand, is only 500-1,000 IU each day."
Source: Startling Findings About Vitamin D - page 1 - Life Extension

I think Life Extension might be right on preformed vitamin A need, sounds much more reasonable than current RDA. It's very very hard to get 100% rda of preformed A from real food, unless you seek to kill animals and stealing their livers. Sounds very suspicious to me.

 

[stargazer1111]

@franko, I really appreciate you sharing this information with the forum. I'm sure it doesn't apply to everyone but there are people that are struggling with autoimmune issues that have tried everything to no avail or with only partial improvement and perhaps this could give them an additional avenue to explore on their healing journey.
I've suspected for many years that retin-a was a contributing environmental factor in my development of celiac disease. I learned it is advised against for people with celiac disease because it increases intestinal permeability via one of the interleukins.
It's also interesting that people with autoimmune diseases are reporting substantial improvements from the carnivore diet. It does make me wonder if vitamin A could be a factor for them. I could personally never go back to carb restriction but sadly the carnivore diet proponents are blaming everything on the carbs. This seems like a much safer approach.
Do you use eggshell or oyster shell calcium since you aren't eating dairy?

After taking too much vitamin A several years ago, I went on an elimination diet for several years until last December when I had my blood levels checked. My blood levels were in the severely deficient range after 4 years of zero vitamin A intake and yet all of the autoimmune problems I had originally attributed to vitamin A were still present (actually worse) and I was starting to have eye problems ( my eyes would go so blurry I couldn't see when I got tired).

I have since re-incorporated full-fat dairy (milk and cheese) which gives me a moderate vitamin A intake and this has totally reversed the eye problems, though my autoimmune problems are still there (though not worse).

I think Genereux's hypothesis is incorrect.

 

[Blossom]

After taking too much vitamin A several years ago, I went on an elimination diet for several years until last December when I had my blood levels checked. My blood levels were in the severely deficient range after 4 years of zero vitamin A intake and yet all of the autoimmune problems I had originally attributed to vitamin A were still present (actually worse) and I was starting to have eye problems ( my eyes would go so blurry I couldn't see when I got tired).

I have since re-incorporated full-fat dairy (milk and cheese) which gives me a moderate vitamin A intake and this has totally reversed the eye problems, though my autoimmune problems are still there (though not worse).

I think Genereux's hypothesis is incorrect.

Thanks for letting me know. My situation was similar but I only ended up being really low in my intake for a bit less than 2 years. When covid hit and I was working overtime every week I started eating eggs and cheese out of necessity rather than not eat at all. I’ve been doing that now since the spring of last year and my health is still gradually improving. I don’t worry if I get a lot some days and none on others. I’m thinking it’s helpful for a time in people who have overdone it on A supplements and perhaps screwed up their ability to handle A with medications. I’m also thinking the persons light environment plays a role.

 

[Dr. B]

"Based upon our extensive research, we believe that most people require 5,000 IU to 10,000 IU of supplemental vitamin D each day to achieve optimal blood level status. The need for preformed vitamin A, on the other hand, is only 500-1,000 IU each day."
Source: Startling Findings About Vitamin D - page 1 - Life Extension

I think Life Extension might be right on preformed vitamin A need, sounds much more reasonable than current RDA. It's very very hard to get 100% rda of preformed A from real food, unless you seek to kill animals and stealing their livers. Sounds very suspicious to me.

2 liters of whole milk will provide around 3000IU vitamin A, its in sweet potatoes and other foods in the beta carotene form. also if you look at supplement labels etc, vitamin A rda used to be 5000IU per day but it was downgraded around 2 years ago to 3000IU. I think LE lowered the amount of vitamin A in their product in response to that. i think vitamin A intake that low would work if youre also getting some in the beta carotene form. thats how they make their product, a serving has 500IU or 1000IU preformed vitamin A and then 4500 IU beta carotene
but anyway, Ray has mentioned limiting vitamin A from all food/sources to 5000IU a day if youre low metabolism. it seems like more vitamin D can offset its negative effects. Ray claims vitamin A has progesterone like effects

After taking too much vitamin A several years ago, I went on an elimination diet for several years until last December when I had my blood levels checked. My blood levels were in the severely deficient range after 4 years of zero vitamin A intake and yet all of the autoimmune problems I had originally attributed to vitamin A were still present (actually worse) and I was starting to have eye problems ( my eyes would go so blurry I couldn't see when I got tired).

I have since re-incorporated full-fat dairy (milk and cheese) which gives me a moderate vitamin A intake and this has totally reversed the eye problems, though my autoimmune problems are still there (though not worse).

I think Genereux's hypothesis is incorrect.

what kind of autoimmune problems did you have? did you ever use vitamin D, E, or K supplements?
i think Grants theory may apply to just the supplemental form of vitamin A, maybe also to accutane and other things of the sort.

 

[Sani]

2 liters of whole milk will provide around 3000IU vitamin A

My point exactly. How many regular people drink little over 2 liters of whole milk every single day or eat six large eggs every day to get 3000 IU of preformed A every day? Beta carotene doesn't count because for many people it just reduces active A in the body and gives you orange skin.

 

[Dr. B]

My point exactly. How many regular people drink little over 2 liters of whole milk every single day or eat six large eggs every day to get 3000 IU of preformed A every day? Beta carotene doesn't count because for many people it just reduces active A in the body and gives you orange skin.

apparently iron and b12 help convert the carotene to A, as needed by the body... i think there's been studies showing beta carotene can cover vitamin A needs, hence why mainstream supplement labels will interchange between carotene and preformed A. also it has to do with thyroid function, low metabolism people get orange much easier from carotene.
but yeah mate, if you're doing a more 'typical' diet, like ground beef or lamb with rice, maybe 1 or 2 cups of milk, and no other dairy or liver sources, then your vitamin A would be around 1000IU a day preformed or less
beta carotene apparently doesnt have the hypervitaminosis A risks of preformed A, hence why supplement makers like using that form, but it apparently has the same anti metabolic effects as excess A. I havent seen Ray address whether regular A or carotene is more anti metabolic, it seems like he prefers preformed A, but just keeping it minimal