Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[postman]

After experimenting for some time with higher and lower amounts of PUFA consumption I now believe that a significant portion of my symptom relief has been from eating very low PUFA. Maybe 30-40% of the symptomatic relief. If you follow Grant's simple diet example you eat less PUFAs that most people here recommend, less PUFAs than even Ray commonly recommends.

@thomas200 I wouldn't recommend challenging yourself with retinol unless you feel like it's a good idea, listen to yourself before you listen to anyone slse.

 

[thomas200]

Your anecdote about added iron in oreos could possibly mean you have something going on in your gut since a small amount of added iron wouldn't have drastic effects on the entire body, but it could very well feed some harmful gut bacteria or damage the lining.

That may be the case with me... idk its a bit confusing. If I eat foods fortified with iron thats more than 10-15% of the RDA I get VA Toxicity symptoms. Here is a quote I found on another forum talking about foods fortified with Iron and VA toxicity:

"Heavy metals make this process infinitely worse, and I experienced this first hand. I supplemented with iron and copper separately while I was toxic with vitamin A and it exponentially exacerbated the brain problems. This is because free iron and free copper steal electrons from the vitamin A and then donate them to oxygen, creating the same toxic byproducts."

Time will do its thing I guess and I can only hope for the best.

You should probably include red meat regularly since it helps the body make RBP.
I think you can probably find a way to go out some if you really want to. I understand that it can be challenging and you may prefer not to right now but for anything to be sustainable long term you have to find a way to still live a little. I hope some more people will reply and give you tips about how they work this way of eating into their social life.

Yeah I will definitely include some ground beef but not for every meal, I'll probably be eating chicken and rice for most of my meals. I honestly dont mind being less social for a little more to heal at all, I've done this for about 6 months im sure a few more months wouldn't hurt too badly.

I've seen one study that says that sunlight will lower both serum and tissue levels of carotenoids, but not retinol, but I can't find it right now.

Ahhhh makes lots of sense!!! I've been getting lots of sun lately and noticed a mild improvement in my symptoms.

After experimenting for some time with higher and lower amounts of PUFA consumption I now believe that a significant portion of my symptom relief has been from eating very low PUFA. Maybe 30-40% of the symptomatic relief. If you follow Grant's simple diet example you eat less PUFAs that most people here recommend, less PUFAs than even Ray commonly recommends.

@thomas200 I wouldn't recommend challenging yourself with retinol unless you feel like it's a good idea, listen to yourself before you listen to anyone slse.

I have almost no PUFA in my diet. I used to eat salmon on the VA deplete diet but learned that was a big mistake. My only nutritional concern with this diet is Calcium (since im still growing). I'm supplementing on B complex and C every now and then. And thank you for the advice, I'll be willing to test it out in a few months or so when I'm curious to see if a meal out with my friends would do any harm


A quick THANK YOU to everyone who took time out of their day to reply and help out, it means a lot more to me than you think!!!

 

[Amazoniac]

Cronometer shows, that i ate average 5 х RDA

Is that for poison A in general or PAE? But even if it's for 'Poisonol Activity Equivalents', 5 times more is not insane, especially because it wased from foods.

It is not too late. The earlier you adjust the better. Your baby's liver will get bigger and make more room to tolerate vit A. Grant in his book mentions that children often outgrow these problems when the liver gets bigger.

How often did you take liver? Were you taking a prenatal?

My baby also has issues and I would warn you against thinking all yours and your baby's health problems are related to A. I'm thinking that children with various sensitivities and issues are more the results of an inadequate environment in the womb. It could be anything really, but if you reflect on what you did and ate before and during pregnancy it might give some clues. Don't beat yourself over it though. What's done is done, focus on what you can do better now and forget your past mistakes.

I did as well as my toddler have some issues improve in my initial go at a low A diet (that was when he was 16 months old), but haven't had any improvements lately. I'm now exploring a low histamine diet which seems to further help.

The effects of excess poison A on the fetus are malformations or malfunctions, but (as far as I know) not accumulation in liver.

Increase of liver length from birth to 12 years:

Normal values of liver and spleen size by ultrasonography in Indian children

Spoiler

Increase of height for the same period:

Height of South Asian children in the Netherlands aged 0-20 years: Secular trends and comparisons with current Asian Indian, Dutch and WHO references

Spoiler

Therefore the liver size of babyzords is disproportionally great for their body size and they have a monstrous metabolism. They are also borneded with low to normal liver reserves, so there's nothing to outgrow from. Restricting poison/"vitamin" A will lead to a depletion in a critical stage of development. If it was desirable for milch to be less poisonous, it would be this way. Its purpose in it must be to prime creatures for the tough world out there.

And just to reinforce that they're not outgrowing anything:

Liver concentrations of vitamin A and carotenoids, as a function of age and other parameters, of American children who died of various causes (James Olson)

Spoiler

 

[somuch4food]

Therefore the liver size of babyzords is disproportionally great for their body size and they have a monstrous metabolism. They are also borneded with low to normal liver reserves, so there's nothing to outgrow from. Restricting poison/"vitamin" A will lead to a depletion in a critical stage of development. If it was desirable for milch to be less poisonous, it would be this way. Its purpose in it must be to prime creatures for the tough world out there.

It's quite common for toddlers to outgrow allergies and skin issues before the school years.

Grant links this on the liver increasing size making more room to tolerate higher doses that are typically found in modern diets.

Personally, I would think it's more complicated than that, but nonetheless kids do outgrow some issues whether it's from Poisonol or not, that I don't know.

 

[Amazoniac]

CM is finally addressing the concerns about vitamin A instead of writing us off as flat earthers. He believes the reason people struggle is because of fatty liver. He says with fatty liver the retinol is just floating around your blood causing damage. He says the cells are starved of vitamin A in this position too.

Janelle! I agree with tankas, Mito is not finally addressing it, he has mentioned this possibility since the first time:
- Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

Even though I believe the issue is beyond liver, people can probably benefit from some of these..

- "I Have Liver Issues And I Am Not Making Progress"
- The Role of Nutritional Therapy in Alcoholic Liver Disease

Sometimes the liver is just taking the hits, being the first organ to be compromised, so the manifestation is there.

It's quite common for toddlers to outgrow allergies and skin issues before the school years.

Grant links this on the liver increasing size making more room to tolerate higher doses that are typically found in modern diets.

Personally, I would think it's more complicated than that, but nonetheless kids do outgrow some issues whether it's from Poisonol or not, that I don't know.

That's likely an adaptation to the environment, and poison/"vitamin" A is often involved in its success.

- Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity
- Law of the instrument - Wikipedia

 

[Amazoniac]

I thoughted that liver size could perhaps quadruple (or more) if it doubles in length whereas the body size depending on height didn't increase as much. Using weight instead of length is preferable for not relying on single dimensions, we doesn't knows if the others increase in proportion.

- Normal organ weights of infants and children: Graphs of Values by Age, with Confidence Intervals

0y: 125 g
2y: 400 g
12y: 1000 g​

- Average Height to Weight Chart - Babies to Teenagers

(Similar for girls)

0y: 3 kg
2y: 13 kg
12y: 40 kg​

So..

Hectogram is a maded-up unit.​

The ratio shows that babyzords have a bigger liver than adults in relation to their body sizes. And on the publication above by Jamie, the content of poison A in the liver based on gram of tissue only increased throughout development.

 

[bennyha]

That's not true. But some can tolerate larger amounts so for you it might be true.

I’m not eating any purple rice or potatoes. Just saw a list of safe foods on a list that a practitioner made and it was listed as safe. I’m taking a purple rice product that’s micronized but not eating any

 

[bennyha]

try using Lifegivingstore's orange/red light on your heel. several reports of the lights turning heels very soft.

Awesome thank you! I have a rad light from redlightman so I’ll try that

 

[Tarmander]

I am interested to see what MJ says about fatty liver. I have gone around that merry go round so many times. Vitamin K, caffeine, B vitamins, milk thistle, olive oil cleanses. I wonder how down doctors are to ultrasound your liver. Can that be done in a regular doc's office?

I thought it was interesting that he mentioned type 1 diabetics having fatty liver so i looked into it and apparently they can get this "too much glycogen stored in the liver." Especially if they are uncontrolled and taking too much insulin. Kind of interesting. How does it connect? Well it can also occur from too many steroids, not the bodybuilding kind of the auto immune dampening kind. I wonder if Grant ever took steroids for his autoimmune? Vitamin A Depletion diet for Glycogenic hepatopathy? Might be worth looking into.

By the by, I went camping. So much energy hiking. All the endurance and none of the out of breath issues of the past. It does feel like my liver is firing on all cylinders to deliver glycogen to where it needs to go. Also been taking Boron and joints are feeling great.

I burn so easily though. My hands and arms are sunburned from an hour in the sun. Stupid. I used to be basically immune to sunburn.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I am interested to see what MJ says about fatty liver. I have gone around that merry go round so many times. Vitamin K, caffeine, B vitamins, milk thistle, olive oil cleanses. I wonder how down doctors are to ultrasound your liver. Can that be done in a regular doc's office?

You might not even need a doctor soon enough. There's apparently a personal ultrasound device coming out soon priced at about $2,000. A big chuck of change, to be sure, but not insurmountable for an individual.

 

[thomas200]

anyone here have a good source for calcium? This low A diet is pretty low in calcium(especially for teens, we're still growing) idk if supplementing is needed

 

[Mito]

The question for me is what causes fatty liver in the first place? Has CM ever mentioned his reviews on this?

Here is a link to a lot of his work on fatty liver. He has mentioned that visceral fat, insulin resistance, and choline deficiency are all implicated in fatty liver.


https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/04/24/start-here-for-fatty-liver-disease/

 

[EJG2112]

anyone here have a good source for calcium? This low A diet is pretty low in calcium(especially for teens, we're still growing) idk if supplementing is needed

If you like them, Starbucks bottled Frappucino only have 6 IU of Vitamin A in the 9.5 oz bottles. I saw the RDA for Vitamin A was listed as 0% on the label, so I emailed them and asked.


Q - "Hello, I have a question about the Vitamin A content of - Starbucks® Bottled Coffee Frappuccino® Coffee Drinks. 9.5 fl oz. On the label it lists the RDA for vitamin A as 0% - Is this correct? I assume the reduced fat and skim milk used is not fortified with Vitamins A or D? I would think that there is still some natural vitamin A in the milk, since there are 3.5 grams of fat per serving. Are you able to tell me how many IU of vitamin A is in this product per serving?"

A - "0% Daily Value for Vitamin A on the label is correct. There is a very small amount of Vitamin A coming from the milk (about 6 IU) but not enough to bump up the % daily value."


Unless you are on a very strict beef and rice, 0 IU vitamin A diet, this will likely be acceptable. The ingredients in there that may be offending to some are maltodextrin and pectin. I do not seem to have an issue with these ingredients personally. Maltodextrin adds some starch, but even when I was trying an extremely low starch diet, it did not give me the bloating, overly full feeling that grains, beans, or potatoes do. Many other manufacturers of these bottled coffee drinks add guar gum, or carrageenan, etc. which would definitely make me feel worse, so I avoid them completely.

A few others have also mentioned Bob's Red Mill no fat milk powder. (no fat, so there is no vitamin A or D and its non-fortified) I doubt it tastes very good, but some people seem to like it. Some others who have issues with dairy use eggshell calcium. You can do a search to find out more about that.

 

[thomas200]

If you like them, Starbucks bottled Frappucino only have 6 IU of Vitamin A in the 9.5 oz bottles. I saw the RDA for Vitamin A was listed as 0% on the label, so I emailed them and asked.


Q - "Hello, I have a question about the Vitamin A content of - Starbucks® Bottled Coffee Frappuccino® Coffee Drinks. 9.5 fl oz. On the label it lists the RDA for vitamin A as 0% - Is this correct? I assume the reduced fat and skim milk used is not fortified with Vitamins A or D? I would think that there is still some natural vitamin A in the milk, since there are 3.5 grams of fat per serving. Are you able to tell me how many IU of vitamin A is in this product per serving?"

A - "0% Daily Value for Vitamin A on the label is correct. There is a very small amount of Vitamin A coming from the milk (about 6 IU) but not enough to bump up the % daily value."


Unless you are on a very strict beef and rice, 0 IU vitamin A diet, this will likely be acceptable. The ingredients in there that may be offending to some are maltodextrin and pectin. I do not seem to have an issue with these ingredients personally. Maltodextrin adds some starch, but even when I was trying an extremely low starch diet, it did not give me the bloating, overly full feeling that grains, beans, or potatoes do. Many other manufacturers of these bottled coffee drinks add guar gum, or carrageenan, etc. which would definitely make me feel worse, so I avoid them completely.

A few others have also mentioned Bob's Red Mill no fat milk powder. (no fat, so there is no vitamin A or D and its non-fortified) I doubt it tastes very good, but some people seem to like it. Some others who have issues with dairy use eggshell calcium. You can do a search to find out more about that.

That starbucks drink seems interesting, that would help the situation a lot. I'm gonna be looking into eggshell calcium. That caught my eye the most. Big help, thank you

 

[Blossom]

Here is a link to a lot of his work on fatty liver. He has mentioned that visceral fat, insulin resistance, and choline deficiency are all implicated in fatty liver.


https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/04/24/start-here-for-fatty-liver-disease/

Thanks!

 

[Pompadour]

@Amazoniac , thank you for sharing your view!

Is that for poison A in general or PAE? But even if it's for 'Poisonol Activity Equivalents', 5 times more is not insane, especially because it wased from foods.

It is Vitamin A in IU - in Cronometer. 1 part was from multivitamins and 4 other parts from food - liver, carrots , pumpkin, green veggies...

Restricting poison/"vitamin" A will lead to a depletion in a critical stage of development. If it was desirable for milch to be less poisonous, it would be this way. Its purpose in it must be to prime creatures for the tough world out there.

If i have too much of stored vitamin A myself, then i probably have enough vitamin A in my breastmilk. So for now it must be ok for the baby.
So, you think, that when she will eat mostly solids , it won't be wise to restrict vitamin A intenitionally? (i am sorry to ask again, but english is not my first language and i am not sure, if i did understand correctly)

 

[Blossom]

@Amazoniac , thank you for sharing your view!

It is Vitamin A in IU - in Cronometer. 1 part was from multivitamins and 4 other parts from food - liver, carrots , pumpkin, green veggies...

If i have too much of stored vitamin A myself, then i probably have enough vitamin A in my breastmilk. So for now it must be ok for the baby.
So, you think, that when she will eat mostly solids , it won't be wise to restrict vitamin A intenitionally? (i am sorry to ask again, but english is not my first language and i am not sure, if i did understand correctly)

Personally if it were me I’d just not go overboard feeding my child excessive colorful vegetables and fruits rich in beta carotene or fortified food. It is still a theory after all. My daughter turned orange as a toddler because she ate butternut squash nearly everyday. She could have the same genes I do though and be a poor converter. Just be mindful but I don’t think you have to fear toxicity in your child in the absence of A supplements and excessive amounts in the diet. That’s just my opinion of course and I hope others chime in.

 

[somuch4food]

If i have too much of stored vitamin A myself, then i probably have enough vitamin A in my breastmilk. So for now it must be ok for the baby.
So, you think, that when she will eat mostly solids , it won't be wise to restrict vitamin A intenitionally? (i am sorry to ask again, but english is not my first language and i am not sure, if i did understand correctly)

My personal opinion is that you don't have to restrict vitamin A, but it would be wise to prioritize retinol over beta carotene (meaning getting it from animal products instead of veggies).

One portion of highly colored veggies (carrots, spinach...) a day would be my limit if I were to do it again. Greatly reducing carotenoids helped clear my toddler's eczema. I gave him liver pate yesterday and no flare up happened.

Beta carotene does not equal animal vit A. I believe it to be a backup system in case we couldn't find animal products to eat for a while.

 

[sunraiser]

Personally if it were me I’d just not go overboard feeding my child excessive colorful vegetables and fruits rich in beta carotene or fortified food. It is still a theory after all. My daughter turned orange as a toddler because she ate butternut squash nearly everyday. She could have the same genes I do though and be a poor converter. Just be mindful but I don’t think you have to fear toxicity in your child in the absence of A supplements and excessive amounts in the diet. That’s just my opinion of course and I hope others chime in.

But is going orange necessarily a sign that anything is physiologically wrong? Could just be that it's a storage or processing or excretion mechanism. Did she have any symptoms other than being orange?

Flamingos are pink because of the carotenoid breakdown mechanism they have... are you declaring against the flamingos?

 

[Blossom]

But is going orange necessarily a sign that anything is physiologically wrong? Could just be that it's a storage or processing or excretion mechanism. Did she have any symptoms other than being orange?

Flamingos are pink because of the carotenoid breakdown mechanism they have... are you declaring against the flamingos?

She was sick a lot and had to get tubes in her ears because of chronic infection but that could have been from other things. I guess my thought is that if your child is turning orange maybe it’s time to back off the beta carotene a bit! :)
I think flamingos are beautiful!