Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Cirion]

I tanned all summer peak UV. All the while I was consuming liver and eggs to 'balance' things. Guess what? My Seb derm got worse. Ray peat's suggestion are the same as an economist. They sound good on paper but have no application in the real world

Eggs are rich in PUFA also and are problematic when it comes to sunlight exposure. All the experiences I have seen on these forums, only those on low PUFA diet can tolerate sun exposure without being burned.

 

[Ronald1919]

Eggs are rich in PUFA also and are problematic when it comes to sunlight exposure. All the experiences I have seen on these forums, only those on low PUFA diet can tolerate sun exposure without being burned.

I actually came back from a long trip. Didn't use sunscreen tanned for one hour daily in coconut oil didn't burn while consuming my daily almonds so there goes the pufa angle again

 

[Cirion]

I actually came back from a long trip. Didn't use sunscreen tanned for one hour daily in coconut oil didn't burn while consuming my daily almonds so there goes the pufa angle again

Ok, but you used coconut oil. Also pufa isn't something you can either introduce or remove and suddenly have no stores of pufa or suddenly have lots of it. PUFA has 600 day half life.

 

[somuch4food]

I actually came back from a long trip. Didn't use sunscreen tanned for one hour daily in coconut oil didn't burn while consuming my daily almonds so there goes the pufa angle again

How much almonds do you eat a day? Also, almonds have vitamin E which protects against the bad effects of PUFA.

PUFA restriction is not the answer to everything, but high consumption of it certainly wrecks me. I ate chips this morning and a few minutes after I felt my skin getting oilier. I had the same reaction last time I had French fries. I'm of the school that a little nuts and seeds is not harmful and may be beneficial, but PUFA is bad, I have experimented with it enough in the last few months to feel confident about my conclusion. The worst really is heated oil as in fried food and chips. I used a sunflower oil Nutella spread for a month this winter and it didn't have a noticeable effect, but I suspect it didn't help with my energy levels and might explain why I was more tired.

 

[Cirion]

Also I think some people here have posted that carotenes can act effectively as PUFA's.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Ok, well that's not entirely a fair comparison. No one eats 100 gram of protein from rice lol. I don't notice it because I don't eat 100 gram of protein from rice =P But your comment on milk is probably one of many reasons people don't do well on it. I rarely even eat 100 gram protein total a day anymore. Sometimes half that.

Just like reducing dietary fat automatically brings down pufa, so bringing down dietary protein automatically drops tryptophan.

We must also probably consider density of tryptophan. Even though rice may have more per gram of protein, per gram of RICE has almost none.

I used 100 grams of protein just to establish a common amount between foods. Yeah, definitely, nobody eats 100 grams of protein from rice or melons,or even meat, although it's much easier to do it with meat.

Well, if one eats a few cups of rice per day, that's around 53 grams of protein. If you were to get that same amount of protein from beef( which would be about 250 grams of lean red meat), you would get less tryptophan, less cysteine and about the same amount of methionine. You would even get less PUFA if you were to get that protein from beef.

But I agree, reducing protein=less tryptophan

 

[Ronald1919]

How much almonds do you eat a day? Also, almonds have vitamin E which protects against the bad effects of PUFA.

PUFA restriction is not the answer to everything, but high consumption of it certainly wrecks me. I ate chips this morning and a few minutes after I felt my skin getting oilier. I had the same reaction last time I had French fries. I'm of the school that a little nuts and seeds is not harmful and may be beneficial, but PUFA is bad, I have experimented with it enough in the last few months to feel confident about my conclusion. The worst really is heated oil as in fried food and chips. I used a sunflower oil Nutella spread for a month this winter and it didn't have a noticeable effect, but I suspect it didn't help with my energy levels and might explain why I was more tired.

Oxidized aka heated pufa =/= all pufa. Most pufa is bad research is looking at rancid oils not pure cold pressed.
I am eating spoonfuls of almond butter. PUFA restriction was a horrible waste of my time. Being a health freak I never used any vegetable oils anyway.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Oxidized aka heated pufa =/= all pufa. Most pufa is bad research is looking at rancid oils not pure cold pressed.

The idea of "cold pressed" is irrelevant if you are using those oils for cooking, and considering they are sold as "cooking oils," you would have to assume that most people use them for that purpose.

 

[schultz]

I actually came back from a long trip. Didn't use sunscreen tanned for one hour daily in coconut oil didn't burn while consuming my daily almonds so there goes the pufa angle again

This is excellent proof and I see no problems with it whatsoever. Can we get this published in some science journal?! Seems like a shame to let such profound evidence go to waste....

 

[charlie]

Good guy Garrett Smith sounding the alarms on Annatto.

Annatto causes MAJOR problems and is a carotenoid Poison/"Vitamin A" used as natural food coloring

 

[Pulstar]

I've seen lot's of quotes about A, but none in that context. Dan Wich has some excellent Peat related search engines here, this might help you find such a quote easier- PeatSearch: a Ray Peat-specific search engine - Toxinless

@Cheesecake posted this-
I had this response from him when I asked him that question in April last year:
"I don’t think the ratio matters, the need for them can vary in opposite directions, for example, with lots of sunlight there’s no need to supplement D, but the need for A increases. Vitamin E protects against an excess of A."

Thanks!

 

[tankasnowgod]

I actually came back from a long trip. Didn't use sunscreen tanned for one hour daily in coconut oil didn't burn while consuming my daily almonds so there goes the pufa angle again

Wait..... are you saying you used coconut oil, the most saturated natural oil on the planet, while you tanned? How could that possibly go against the pufa angle?

 

[stargazer1111]

I am curious about something. In your initial story you said you had extreme brain fog and memory issues AFTER you got off vitamin A for a few months. Did I read that right? While you were on vitamin A you were doing fine but then when you went low vitamin A you had this initial memory problem which resolved itself after a few months?

Not exactly. I noticed the memory problems one day when I was out to dinner and I would look at the sign of the restaurant on the building, look away, and couldn't remember what the sign said. I did this several times and couldn't remember after each look at the sign. This was after several weeks of taking 100,000 IU per day. I took this dose after having read Haidut's posts citing research on the safety of doses below 300,000 IU per day. I regret this as a lot of that research is flawed for a number of reasons (sample size being one). I continued taking the vitamin A for another week or so after noticing this but stopped when I realized I had re-developed food allergies I had several years prior to this on my zero carb, carnivorous diet (which was also high in vitamin A, coincidentally).

One week after this, all hell broke loose and I suspect this was because the body was no longer trying to store the incoming vitamin A and was instead trying to excrete the excess. I ended up in the ER 5 times that summer with severe tachycardia (woke up one morning with it running about 230 bpm and thought I was going to die).

The vitamin A overdose caused severe hyperthyroidism. I had zero TSH, high T3, high T4, and an ultrasound revealed severe inflammation and hot nodules on the thyroid gland. It also caused Crohn's-like symptoms in the GI tract. I passed blood with my stools and had severe diarrhea for weeks.

The memory loss was really bad but was suddenly potentiated one day when I took an iron supplement. That night I was basically in and out of consciousness, could literally feel the swelling in my skull, and the memory loss was so severe that I would go to the store, use the bathroom, or read something and couldn't remember doing it at all. I also had severe suicidal depression for several weeks after stopping the vitamin A.

Iron potentiates the damage from vitamin A because excess vitamin A will haphazardly donate electrons to anything in the environment, especially redox-active metals which initiates the cascade of production for reactive oxygen and nitrogen species which then kill cells.

I can still have light memory problems if I eat incorrectly, but they are mostly gone now. The thyroid issue, the heart issue, and the bowel issue have largely been reversed after 2 years eating zero vitamin A. It took at least a year before the memory problems really started to reverse. Vitamin A is excreted very slowly and it can take years to get rid of an excess. I also had trouble similarly to early-stage Alzheimer's. I couldn't remember common words like "ocean" or "pencil." I also couldn't remember the names of family members and people I had known for years. Very scary stuff for someone in their 30's.

I consider myself lucky. I'm sure I was pretty close to death at certain points that summer.

 

[Cirion]

It's pretty unfortunate if true that people are recommending dosages in the 100,000 of IU. That's an obscene dosage for any vitamin, let alone 300,000.

If there ever is indeed a time for someone to take supraphysical dosages of ANY thing, it should ALWAYS be done under the close supervision of a physician and NEVER undertaken alone.

 

[stargazer1111]

It's pretty unfortunate if true that people are recommending dosages in the 100,000 of IU. That's an obscene dosage for any vitamin, let alone 300,000.

Agreed. I am a dolt for doing what I did but perhaps it led me down this path of focusing my science on this issue for a reason...

The problem is that the tolerance for vitamin A is likely quite variable (as are all things) due to genetic and epigenetic differences in how much retinol-binding protein people make. This is the protein that keeps vitamin A from being toxic. If you make too little or if you consume vitamin A to a level that exceeds the body's capacity for making retinol-binding protein, this is what leads to toxicity.

 

[Cirion]

And I thought I was crazy for doing 50,000 IU of vitamin D (don't do this either BTW lol).

 

[stargazer1111]

And I thought I was crazy for doing 50,000 IU of vitamin D (don't do this either BTW lol).

50 is a lot. Up to 10 generally causes no toxicity. But, after that, it's a crap shoot.

 

[Tarmander]

Not exactly. I noticed the memory problems one day when I was out to dinner and I would look at the sign of the restaurant on the building, look away, and couldn't remember what the sign said. I did this several times and couldn't remember after each look at the sign. This was after several weeks of taking 100,000 IU per day. I took this dose after having read Haidut's posts citing research on the safety of doses below 300,000 IU per day. I regret this as a lot of that research is flawed for a number of reasons (sample size being one). I continued taking the vitamin A for another week or so after noticing this but stopped when I realized I had re-developed food allergies I had several years prior to this on my zero carb, carnivorous diet (which was also high in vitamin A, coincidentally).

One week after this, all hell broke loose and I suspect this was because the body was no longer trying to store the incoming vitamin A and was instead trying to excrete the excess. I ended up in the ER 5 times that summer with severe tachycardia (woke up one morning with it running about 230 bpm and thought I was going to die).

The vitamin A overdose caused severe hyperthyroidism. I had zero TSH, high T3, high T4, and an ultrasound revealed severe inflammation and hot nodules on the thyroid gland. It also caused Crohn's-like symptoms in the GI tract. I passed blood with my stools and had severe diarrhea for weeks.

The memory loss was really bad but was suddenly potentiated one day when I took an iron supplement. That night I was basically in and out of consciousness, could literally feel the swelling in my skull, and the memory loss was so severe that I would go to the store, use the bathroom, or read something and couldn't remember doing it at all. I also had severe suicidal depression for several weeks after stopping the vitamin A.

Iron potentiates the damage from vitamin A because excess vitamin A will haphazardly donate electrons to anything in the environment, especially redox-active metals which initiates the cascade of production for reactive oxygen and nitrogen species which then kill cells.

I can still have light memory problems if I eat incorrectly, but they are mostly gone now. The thyroid issue, the heart issue, and the bowel issue have largely been reversed after 2 years eating zero vitamin A. It took at least a year before the memory problems really started to reverse. Vitamin A is excreted very slowly and it can take years to get rid of an excess. I also had trouble similarly to early-stage Alzheimer's. I couldn't remember common words like "ocean" or "pencil." I also couldn't remember the names of family members and people I had known for years. Very scary stuff for someone in their 30's.

I consider myself lucky. I'm sure I was pretty close to death at certain points that summer.

Wow thank you for outlining this story and what you went through. I am sure it was hell but being able to share that story now is going to benefit people, myself included. Your sacrifice was not in vain :)

When you were doing this 2 years of low vitamin A diet, did you find Grant or was this something you did on your own? Did you make a forum post about it?

 

[schultz]

One week after this, all hell broke loose and I suspect this was because the body was no longer trying to store the incoming vitamin A and was instead trying to excrete the excess. I ended up in the ER 5 times that summer with severe tachycardia (woke up one morning with it running about 230 bpm and thought I was going to die).

The vitamin A overdose caused severe hyperthyroidism. I had zero TSH, high T3, high T4, and an ultrasound revealed severe inflammation and hot nodules on the thyroid gland. It also caused Crohn's-like symptoms in the GI tract. I passed blood with my stools and had severe diarrhea for weeks.

Sounds like a pretty awful summer.

I'm curious, did you get the pituitary and/or pituitary hormones, PTH and calcium checked during all this?

Vitamin A is usually, historically, used to suppress the thyroid, so your reaction to it is quite unique (though not unheard of). I'm just wondering if there was something else involved in the effect?

 

[Blossom]

Not exactly. I noticed the memory problems one day when I was out to dinner and I would look at the sign of the restaurant on the building, look away, and couldn't remember what the sign said. I did this several times and couldn't remember after each look at the sign. This was after several weeks of taking 100,000 IU per day. I took this dose after having read Haidut's posts citing research on the safety of doses below 300,000 IU per day. I regret this as a lot of that research is flawed for a number of reasons (sample size being one). I continued taking the vitamin A for another week or so after noticing this but stopped when I realized I had re-developed food allergies I had several years prior to this on my zero carb, carnivorous diet (which was also high in vitamin A, coincidentally).

One week after this, all hell broke loose and I suspect this was because the body was no longer trying to store the incoming vitamin A and was instead trying to excrete the excess. I ended up in the ER 5 times that summer with severe tachycardia (woke up one morning with it running about 230 bpm and thought I was going to die).

The vitamin A overdose caused severe hyperthyroidism. I had zero TSH, high T3, high T4, and an ultrasound revealed severe inflammation and hot nodules on the thyroid gland. It also caused Crohn's-like symptoms in the GI tract. I passed blood with my stools and had severe diarrhea for weeks.

The memory loss was really bad but was suddenly potentiated one day when I took an iron supplement. That night I was basically in and out of consciousness, could literally feel the swelling in my skull, and the memory loss was so severe that I would go to the store, use the bathroom, or read something and couldn't remember doing it at all. I also had severe suicidal depression for several weeks after stopping the vitamin A.

Iron potentiates the damage from vitamin A because excess vitamin A will haphazardly donate electrons to anything in the environment, especially redox-active metals which initiates the cascade of production for reactive oxygen and nitrogen species which then kill cells.

I can still have light memory problems if I eat incorrectly, but they are mostly gone now. The thyroid issue, the heart issue, and the bowel issue have largely been reversed after 2 years eating zero vitamin A. It took at least a year before the memory problems really started to reverse. Vitamin A is excreted very slowly and it can take years to get rid of an excess. I also had trouble similarly to early-stage Alzheimer's. I couldn't remember common words like "ocean" or "pencil." I also couldn't remember the names of family members and people I had known for years. Very scary stuff for someone in their 30's.

I consider myself lucky. I'm sure I was pretty close to death at certain points that summer.

Thank you, that matches much of what I’ve experienced over the years although fortunately not all at once. This is a very valuable and helpful post and much appreciated.