Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[stargazer1111]

Wow thank you for outlining this story and what you went through. I am sure it was hell but being able to share that story now is going to benefit people, myself included. Your sacrifice was not in vain :)

When you were doing this 2 years of low vitamin A diet, did you find Grant or was this something you did on your own? Did you make a forum post about it?

I posted here and a few other places. Some of my posts were maybe incorrect because it was too soon for me to understand what had happened so not all of them are helpful.

I don't remember how I found Grant, actually. But, I read some of his work and e-mailed him.

 

[stargazer1111]

Sounds like a pretty awful summer.

I'm curious, did you get the pituitary and/or pituitary hormones, PTH and calcium checked during all this?

Vitamin A is usually, historically, used to suppress the thyroid, so your reaction to it is quite unique (though not unheard of). I'm just wondering if there was something else involved in the effect?

Here is the funny part. While I was toxic with vitamin A, I was simultaneously almost toxic with vitamin D because I was taking 20-30,000 IU per day of the D at the same time. My D level was 189 ng/ml at the time I was in the ER. The toxic range starts at 200. I'm lucky I saw this and stopped taking so much. The D level dropped much more quickly than the vitamin A and I am now on about 8,000 IU per day which keeps it at a reasonable, non-toxic level. My serum calcium was surprisingly normal.

They didn't check PTH or anything else because the doctors were stupid. They had to wikipedia hypervitaminosis A and had no idea what to look for. I did and I requested the specific tests but they obviously didn't listen because I am only a biochemist.

 

[Blossom]

Here is the funny part. While I was toxic with vitamin A, I was simultaneously almost toxic with vitamin D because I was taking 20-30,000 IU per day of the D at the same time. My D level was 189 ng/ml at the time I was in the ER. The toxic range starts at 200. I'm lucky I saw this and stopped taking so much. The D level dropped much more quickly than the vitamin A and I am now on about 8,000 IU per day which keeps it at a reasonable, non-toxic level. My serum calcium was surprisingly normal.

They didn't check PTH or anything else because the doctors were stupid. They had to wikipedia hypervitaminosis A and had no idea what to look for. I did and I requested the specific tests but they obviously didn't listen because I am only a biochemist.

I was wondering if you would mind sharing what you eat if you haven't already?

 

[Amazoniac]

- Amounts and Types of Fatty Acids in Meals Affect the Pattern of Retinoids Secreted in Human Chylomicrons After a High-Dose Preformed Vitamin A Intake

"Dietary retinyl esters are hydrolyzed in the duodenum lumen[2-4] and unesterified retinol is taken up by enterocytes, involving both diffusion and protein-mediated facilitated transport. At physiological concentrations retinol is absorbed by facilitated diffusion, whereas at pharmacological concentrations it can be absorbed by passive diffusion."

"Once in enterocytes, retinol complexed with CRBP(II) is re-esterified by lecithin:retinol acyltransferase (LRAT),[5] while uncomplexed retinol in membranes may be esterified by acyl coenzyme A:retinol acyltransferase (ARAT).[6-10] Under a physiological vitamin A load, LRAT is the primary enzyme responsible for the esterification of retinol. ARAT esterifies excess retinol when pharmacological doses of vitamin A are absorbed and CRBP(II) becomes saturated. Palmitate, stearate, oleate, and linoleate account for the great majority of the fatty acids that esterify retinol."

"When a pharmacological dose of preformed vitamin A is ingested (about 20 times the vitamin A recommended daily allowance in this study), LRAT capacities are overwhelmed, the esterification of retinol by ARAT becomes significant, and retinyl esters are produced using ingested fatty acids. This can explain the appearance of retinyl linoleate after the sunflower meal. When a high dose of preformed vitamin A is ingested together with a small amount of fatty acids, LRAT capacities are overwhelmed, and ARAT cannot esterify the excess of free retinol because of shortage of newly absorbed fatty acids. In these conditions a large fraction of retinol is incorporated in its free form in chylomicrons. This mechanism can explain why amounts and species of triacylglycerols affect the pattern of retinoids secreted in chylomicrons only when a pharmacological dose of preformed vitamin A is ingested."

Marked apperance of free retinol in chylomicrons from a high dose taken with a fat-free meal:

Spoiler: Fig. 2

Spoiler: Fig. 3B

Because retinol bound to serum retinol binding protein combines with a specific cell surface receptor, the specificity of vitamin A uptake depends on the carrier protein. By contrast, synthetic retinoids are transported nonspecifically bound to albumin or lipoproteins, enter the cell from a small pool of free drug, and specificity of uptake depends upon the retinoid molecule itself.

Retinol toxicity occurs following the saturation of the retinol binding protein. This results in an increase in the non-specific binding of retinol to plasma lipoproteins and often an increase in the concentration of free retinol in the plasma. Additionally, an increase in circulating retinyl esters occurs which may be a more specific marker for predicting hypervitaminosis A, as plasma retinol levels do not reliably predict clinical symptomatology (Krasinski et al., 1989). Nonetheless, the rise in free retinol causes a disruption of controlled receptor-mediated cell interactions and a perturbation of cellular membranes resulting in an alteration of cell function (Goodman, 1988). Since retinol not bound to RBP is easily oxidized, further damage may occur through retinol-induced pro-oxidant effects elicited by the products of spontaneous oxidation (Dal-Pizzol et al., 2001).

 

[stargazer1111]

- Amounts and Types of Fatty Acids in Meals Affect the Pattern of Retinoids Secreted in Human Chylomicrons After a High-Dose Preformed Vitamin A Intake

"At physiological concentrations retinol is absorbed by facilitated diffusion, whereas at pharmacological concentrations it can be absorbed by passive diffusion. Once in enterocytes, retinol complexed with CRBP(II) is re-esterified by lecithin:retinol acyltransferase (LRAT),[5] while uncomplexed retinol in membranes may be esterified by acyl coenzyme A:retinol acyltransferase (ARAT).[6-10] Under a physiological vitamin A load, LRAT is the primary enzyme responsible for the esterification of retinol. ARAT esterifies excess retinol when pharmacological doses of vitamin A are absorbed and CRBP(II) becomes saturated. Palmitate, stearate, oleate, and linoleate account for the great majority of the fatty acids that esterify retinol."

"When a pharmacological dose of preformed vitamin A is ingested (about 20 times the vitamin A recommended daily allowance in this study), LRAT capacities are overwhelmed, the esterification of retinol by ARAT becomes significant, and retinyl esters are produced using ingested fatty acids. This can explain the appearance of retinyl linoleate after the sunflower meal. When a high dose of preformed vitamin A is ingested together with a small amount of fatty acids, LRAT capacities are overwhelmed, and ARAT cannot esterify the excess of free retinol because of shortage of newly absorbed fatty acids. In these conditions a large fraction of retinol is incorporated in its free form in chylomicrons. This mechanism can explain why amounts and species of triacylglycerols affect the pattern of retinoids secreted in chylomicrons only when a pharmacological dose of preformed vitamin A is ingested."

Apperance of free retinol in chylomicrons from a high dose taken with a fat-free meal:

Spoiler: Fig. 2

View attachment 12704

Spoiler: Fig. 3B

View attachment 12705

Yes. This is exactly correct.

 

[stargazer1111]

I was wondering if you would mind sharing what you eat if you haven't already?

It changes sometimes. Currently, I eat:

80/20 ground beef
Bob's Red Mill skim milk (zero vitamin A) with added table sugar
Kettle brand potato chips (only 1 gram of PUFA per serving, so my PUFA intake is very low)
Iodized salt
Caffeine-free Coke
Sprite
Glucose tablets to keep blood sugar up during the day

That's my diet and I feel really damn good on it.

I take 400 IU per day of vitamin E (mixed tocopherols) as vitamin E has been demonstrated in studies to alleviate hypervitaminosis A without side effects.
8,000 IU per day of vitamin D
1-2 mg of vitamin K2
Several grams of vitamin C

 

[kyle]

Here is the funny part. While I was toxic with vitamin A, I was simultaneously almost toxic with vitamin D because I was taking 20-30,000 IU per day of the D at the same time. My D level was 189 ng/ml at the time I was in the ER. The toxic range starts at 200. I'm lucky I saw this and stopped taking so much. The D level dropped much more quickly than the vitamin A and I am now on about 8,000 IU per day which keeps it at a reasonable, non-toxic level. My serum calcium was surprisingly normal.

They didn't check PTH or anything else because the doctors were stupid. They had to wikipedia hypervitaminosis A and had no idea what to look for. I did and I requested the specific tests but they obviously didn't listen because I am only a biochemist.

Which brand of A/D were you taking?

Were you taking anything else?

 

[Blossom]

It changes sometimes. Currently, I eat:

80/20 ground beef
Bob's Red Mill skim milk (zero vitamin A) with added table sugar
Kettle brand potato chips (only 1 gram of PUFA per serving, so my PUFA intake is very low)
Iodized salt
Caffeine-free Coke
Sprite
Glucose tablets to keep blood sugar up during the day

That's my diet and I feel really damn good on it.

I take 400 IU per day of vitamin E (mixed tocopherols) as vitamin E has been demonstrated in studies to alleviate hypervitaminosis A without side effects.
8,000 IU per day of vitamin D
1-2 mg of vitamin K2
Several grams of vitamin C

Thanks!

 

[stargazer1111]

Which brand of A/D were you taking?

Were you taking anything else?

Nothing else. The D was Superior Source Extra Strength Microlingual tablets. The A was pure vitamin A palmitate powder from Bulk Supplements. I have a mg scale I use to weigh the dosage.

 

[Blossom]

Bob's Red Mill skim milk (zero vitamin A) with added table sugar

Non-Fat Dry Milk Powder
Is this the one you use?

 

[stargazer1111]

Non-Fat Dry Milk Powder
Is this the one you use?

Yes! I also verified that there is literally zero vitamin A, not even 1 IU by e-mailing them. They sent me the analysis report done on the powder and no vitamin A is present at all. I'm so happy I found it because every single product in grocery stores is fortified with that stuff. Very frustrating.

It isn't the BEST tasting milk ever, but I don't mind. It tastes great after adding some table sugar anyway...

 

[Blossom]

Yes! I also verified that there is literally zero vitamin A, not even 1 IU by e-mailing them. They sent me the analysis report done on the powder and no vitamin A is present at all. I'm so happy I found it because every single product in grocery stores is fortified with that stuff. Very frustrating.

It isn't the BEST tasting milk ever, but I don't mind. It tastes great after adding some table sugar anyway...

That's brilliant. There are some speculations that retinol is hidden within casein protein but if you are making progress perhaps that's not true. If I decide to try milk again I will try that one.

 

[stargazer1111]

That's brilliant. There are some speculations that retinol is hidden within casein protein but if you are making progress perhaps that's not true. If I decide to try milk again I will try that one.

Wow. I had no idea, but I just found some papers indicating that casein may indeed bind to retinoids.

I attached a screenshot of the e-mail the company sent me.

I wonder if the assay used by the lab they contract can pick up retinoids bound to casein. This is concerning to me.

 

[Tarmander]

I have been doing some research on micro albumin levels and kidney disease and I came across this stuff called chitosan. There are some studies on it helping people with kidney disease...basically giving them energy, better sleep, and normalizing some of their blood parameters.

I got to thinking. Didn't Grant have kidney disease and his low A diet saved him? I wonder if somehow Chitosan has some action on vitamin A. I looked into studies and only found this one so far:Continuous and massive intake of chitosan affects mineral and fat-soluble vitamin status in rats fed on a high-fat diet. - PubMed - NCBI

They gave massive doses of chitosan to rats and it basically squeezed out all their vitamins and minerals. So nothing interesting yet. I am going to send a message to Smith and see if he has anything dug up on it.

@Amazoniac have you seen anything on it?

 

[Amazoniac]

I have been doing some research on micro albumin levels and kidney disease and I came across this stuff called chitosan. There are some studies on it helping people with kidney disease...basically giving them energy, better sleep, and normalizing some of their blood parameters.

I got to thinking. Didn't Grant have kidney disease and his low A diet saved him? I wonder if somehow Chitosan has some action on vitamin A. I looked into studies and only found this one so far:Continuous and massive intake of chitosan affects mineral and fat-soluble vitamin status in rats fed on a high-fat diet. - PubMed - NCBI

They gave massive doses of chitosan to rats and it basically squeezed out all their vitamins and minerals. So nothing interesting yet. I am going to send a message to Smith and see if he has anything dug up on it.

@Amazoniac have you seen anything on it?

- Milk in context: allergies, ecology, and some myths "chitin"

 

[InChristAlone]

Yes! I also verified that there is literally zero vitamin A, not even 1 IU by e-mailing them. They sent me the analysis report done on the powder and no vitamin A is present at all. I'm so happy I found it because every single product in grocery stores is fortified with that stuff. Very frustrating.

It isn't the BEST tasting milk ever, but I don't mind. It tastes great after adding some table sugar anyway...

That's awesome. If you feel that casein is okay as far as vitamin A goes why not skim milk mozzarella? I seemed to do really good on cheese sticks. I am testing dairy free at the moment, but I have a feeling this isn't going to be sustainable long term, will probably go back to cheese.

 

[Tarmander]

- Milk in context: allergies, ecology, and some myths "chitin"

Chitin and Chitosan are different.

 

[Blossom]

Wow. I had no idea, but I just found some papers indicating that casein may indeed bind to retinoids.

I attached a screenshot of the e-mail the company sent me.

I wonder if the assay used by the lab they contract can pick up retinoids bound to casein. This is concerning to me.

Grant wrote about it in one of his books. Part of his theory is that the retinol is converted to retinoic acid by heat and is not detected by normal analysis. That’s my understanding of his stance. I hope you are able to verify if this is true. I’m lactose intolerant anyway so I’m not consuming dairy atm because it’s impossible to find both A and lactose free milk. You’ve improved regardless so that’s positive and if there’s some A perhaps it’s not enough to impact you.

 

[postman]

It changes sometimes. Currently, I eat:

80/20 ground beef
Bob's Red Mill skim milk (zero vitamin A) with added table sugar
Kettle brand potato chips (only 1 gram of PUFA per serving, so my PUFA intake is very low)
Iodized salt
Caffeine-free Coke
Sprite
Glucose tablets to keep blood sugar up during the day

That's my diet and I feel really damn good on it.

I take 400 IU per day of vitamin E (mixed tocopherols) as vitamin E has been demonstrated in studies to alleviate hypervitaminosis A without side effects.
8,000 IU per day of vitamin D
1-2 mg of vitamin K2
Several grams of vitamin C

There is no such thing as zero vitamin A milk. 1% milk has almost 300 IU per litre, and 0.1% has almost 30 IU per litre. That's with cows eating at least some grass but there are almost no carotenoids in milk and the cows are supplemented so I doubt it's any different with grain-fed cows. I very much doubt it's 0 IU retinol unless they managed to make it 0.00% fat

 

[charlie]

No skin problems for 23 men after going Poison/"Vitamin A" free for 2 years!