Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Tarmander]

No, you are dangerous. You are creating doubt in people's minds about the low vitamin A diet. Your approach is one of taking the middle road, but that is the wrong approach to take. Vitamin A is a poison which is responsible for taking people's life and happiness away by causing the body to self-destruct. Living with auto-immune diseases is hell on earth. Your approach will cause people to delay getting started on the low vitamin A diet because they think Vitamin A is no big deal, everyone is eating it right? We have to help people suffering from these diseases to get started on the low vitamin A diet. It's the best we can do for our fellow human beings. People will never develop their full potential if they don't start on the low vitamin A diet soon.

In 6 months time, you are going to be wrong. I would put money on it. The whole theory will be fleshed out, there will be certain people who do well on the diet. There will be hurdles, limitations, caveats. There will be needed supplements to make it work long term, maybe vitamin C, maybe sunlight, who knows. The landscape will look different and there will be mistakes and successes to take into account.

You have been doing this diet for what...a month? two? I just hope people do not take you too seriously and ease into this diet. I think your zealotry has probably accomplished that, but I want to add my own weight and reiterate it. I have been on this diet now for almost 4 months and while there are continued good signs, with any drastic reduction in diet like this you must be careful. Very easy to get orthorexic. There are social consequences that can be dealt with well or poorly.

I also seem to get sick much easier now than I used to. Colds, sore throats, that kind of thing. I balance that out against the other benefits to sleep and blood sugar and continue on the diet, but it is something people will want to consider.

I really wish you would calm down Vinero. If you are telling the truth that you have been doing different diets for awhile, then you should have some wisdom about your own ability to make mistakes. You are selling this low vitamin A diet so hard, it is going to turn people who are experienced and wise off. You are actually hurting your own cause by pushing it with such zealotry. I would like this diet to help people and one whiff of what your smoking and reasonable people will drift away. Just think about it man.

 

[Braveheart]

The common definition of autoimmune disease...(from dictionary.com)

"a disease resulting from a disordered immune reaction in which antibodies are produced against one's own tissues"

The assumption made it seems (and wrongfully IMO) is that the tissues are perfectly healthy and the body just decides to attack them.

Meanwhile there is this huge line of research on HNE-protein adducts and nobody seems to talk about this stuff. It's just so weird to me...



This is possible. Do you have evidence of this? You may have shared some in one of your "information dumps". Maybe I'll go back and look.



Maybe... I am not as convinced that people who say they eat low PUFA actually eat low PUFA. I mean, what does "low" even mean when you say you're eating low PUFA? For myself, if I am above 3g in a day I consider that high, I consider 1-3g range normal (again, for me), and I consider under 1g to be low and it's rare for me unless I am actively trying to keep it low (currently I am logging my food, and I was at 0.8g yesterday). Ray tends to say keep it under 4g. There is probably no hard rule on this, but if you're eating in the range of 4-10g per day I imagine this is enough to cause problems, especially if you have a history of illness and already have some stored (and especially if you're overweight).

That being said, I do believe there are other things that cause problems. I think it's possible that vitamin A can cause similar problems to the PUFA, and I think it is even more possible for carotene to do this. This is really the only reason I have shown interest in this thread, because I believe there is a chance that carotene and vitamin A can actually have PUFAesque effects.



I agree. Why not try and figure it out? If someone knows the details maybe they can make decisions based on those details and possibly figure out ways of increasing their intake of carotene/vitamin A without causing problems. For lots of people the puppy love stage of a VAD diet will wear off an they will start thinking "Do I have to do this for the rest of my life?". Maybe not my friends!



Indeed! But I think people are encouraged by their results and are more focused on avoidance at this point. That's understandable, but I think they should leave the question planted in their mind of "maybe there is more to this than just X = poison" @somuch4food seems to be open to all possibilities.

"There is probably no hard rule on this, but if you're eating in the range of 4-10g per day I imagine this is enough to cause problems, especially if you have a history of illness and already have some stored (and especially if you're overweight)."

I average 12g pufa with no problems....

 

[Blossom]

My plan right now is just to get my levels closer to that of a young child. I do not have any desire to prove to the world that A is an absolute toxin/poison but I respect the fact that Grant is working toward that goal. It definitely can cause problems in overload and I believe more people than ever in the modern world are susceptible to overload due to our diet and lifestyle. I’m hopeful that once I have depleted the excess A I can have small amounts of A containing foods without issues. I believe it’s going to take quite some time though. I’ll be 50 this year and I don’t feel willing to gamble on my health by going into deficiency (I do not know if that really exists) so near deficiency seems more appropriate for me. I’ll continue to report any labs or positive or negative developments as time goes on.

 

[charlie]

Now that good guy Garrett Smith is well on his way to saving humanity. He has pivoted and will save the dolphins. #winning #savethedolphins #mymanGarrettwootwoot

Even dolphins in captivity are being poisoned with Vitamin A

 

[somuch4food]

I think you are actually very healthy.

I'm not that sick. I have admitted to this many times, but I do have a number of symptoms that hinder my everyday life: fatigue, back pain, mild constipation, mild depression, some autistic traits. I had menstrual pains requiring the use of painkillers, but I'm dodging that one with pregnancy.

I do think this theory is relevant. I got really way worse with a high carotene clean eating diet.

The thing is I want a holistic approach that while allowing some healing also allows some leeway. I might change side again at one point, but I'm not willing to bet on vit A being a poison atm especially during pregnancy.

I want to find a middle ground approach. Grant found a solution. It doesn't mean it's the only one.

 

[Blossom]

I’m signing off from RP forum indefinitely. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you feel like keeping in touch and we can exchange emails.

Peace out y’all!

Your coconutty presence will be missed. Best wishes, Blossom

 

[Dolomite]

I'm not that sick. I have admitted to this many times, but I do have a number of symptoms that hinder my everyday life: fatigue, back pain, mild constipation, mild depression, some autistic traits. I had menstrual pains requiring the use of painkillers, but I'm dodging that one with pregnancy.

I do think this theory is relevant. I got really way worse with a high carotene clean eating diet..

I had the constipation and cramps when I was younger, too. Have you read the thread about Katharina Dalton and her recommendation to eat a starchy snack every three hours to keep adrenaline down and allow progesterone to dominate? Even at my age, that helps. I would try that if I were your age. And avoid high beta carotene foods. You may never get too overloaded.

 

[Dolomite]

@somuch4food here is the thread Katharina Dalton: The Dietary "musts" For Improving Progesterone (Hint: No Low Carb, No Starvation)

 

[postman]

As I posted to you before, there are other diets that people have success with to cure their autoimmune issues. I do think Grant could have identified one of the worse and unsuspected causative agent in retinoic acid and carotenoids, but I don't think that simply avoiding A is the final answer. There are other factors like the importance of proteins, vitamin E and zinc in creating resistance to these damaging compounds. I want us to get to the bottom of this and not stop at avoid all A and you're good.

I have reduced my B and iron fortified wheat consumption and upped oats as an alternative recently and I seem to be getting better. Fortification or gluten might be another important factor for my case. It's also frequently avoided by those going low A despite being low in A and some could be seeing most of their benefits from this change alone. They won't know unless they challenge their bodies which you are not encouraging.

I do not want to remove foods from my diet because of dogma anymore. You mentioned "Learned helplessness" in another post. Blindly following dietary advices from the Internet is "Learned helplessness" by relying on external sources to make decision for yourself. That's what I was doing last year and I was going in a very wrong direction. I'm decoding my body and want to understand its reactions.

For sure there are many factors but VA seems to be the single biggest one for a lot of people, a way bigger factor than pufas or iron levels or vitamin deficiencies. According to Grants theory his dietary intervention should not be a permanent thing, as your liver stores get depleted of VA you should be able to tolerate some VA again. Maybe this is wrong though, maybe this all has more to do with a dysfunctional VA metabolism. But according to his theory to super strict avoidance is only necessary until you have depleted your liver basically.

I just don't see how you can spend so much time knacking a theory when you haven't really tried applying it yourself. Janelle just said a couple of pages ago that moderately limiting VA didn't do much for her, she had to be quite strict for it to make a difference and I think a lot of people have the same experience. The reason you felt better on your lower VA diet might not have been to VA at all, it could be something completely different. By the same token that you say Vinero doesn't encourage people to challenge their bodies so they can't know what's doing what, the same could be said of you, you've never really tried a low VA diet.

I'm not that sick. I have admitted to this many times, but I do have a number of symptoms that hinder my everyday life: fatigue, back pain, mild constipation, mild depression, some autistic traits. I had menstrual pains requiring the use of painkillers, but I'm dodging that one with pregnancy.

I do think this theory is relevant. I got really way worse with a high carotene clean eating diet.

The thing is I want a holistic approach that while allowing some healing also allows some leeway. I might change side again at one point, but I'm not willing to bet on vit A being a poison atm especially during pregnancy.

I want to find a middle ground approach. Grant found a solution. It doesn't mean it's the only one.

I don't think the obsession with orthorexia that many people have in the peat community have is relevant or relatable to that many people in general. Most people who are long term chronically ill would happily eat nothing but cardboard for the rest of their lives if it means they could be cured of disease. However I do agree you shouldn't do any experimental dieting or supplementation when you are pregnant, you should trust your insticts.

 

[charlie]

The "perfect storm" of Poison/"Vitamin A" problems from dairy products

 

[Ronald1919]

I think long term on this diet there are much more options available. Just go through the initial phase restricted. My current diet

• Oatmeal, maple syrup, Brazil nuts or almonds. Coconut water or almond milk. Turkey slices (cold cut)
• Almond butter and peeled apple
• Rice or white potato and extra lean grass fed ground beef. Optional: pinto beans. Rarely: cauliflowers
• Repeat previous meal
• Repeat previous meal

Also in the mix: berries since a lot are low VA

Supplement: vitamin c, iodized salt. Sunflower oil. That's it. Shortest list of supplements I been on in my life.

So I really do believe it's really sustainable and enough variety for me. Vitamin c can easily be obtained from low VA fruits or lemonade like it was suggested here. I just like to use the supplement it helps with the detox.

How is this a restrictive diet ?

 

[charlie]

Night blindness and dry eye are CAUSED by excess retinoic acid Poison/"Vitamin A", NOT by deficiency!

 

[Atman]

So PUFA, beans and grains are a good staple now?
Apart from your aversion to carotenoids you are pretty much in line with mainstream nutritional advice at the moment.
But if you keep up the speed you will be there in a month. You can now start to buy processed junk food from the supermarket again, which is 99% cheap starches and vegetable oils. In some way, I envy you.

 

[somuch4food]

@somuch4food here is the thread Katharina Dalton: The Dietary "musts" For Improving Progesterone (Hint: No Low Carb, No Starvation)

Thanks. I will take a look at this later.

The reason you felt better on your lower VA diet might not have been to VA at all, it could be something completely different. By the same token that you say Vinero doesn't encourage people to challenge their bodies so they can't know what's doing what, the same could be said of you, you've never really tried a low VA diet.

You could be right. I think I will stop with all my middle ground approach in this thread. You all make good points. I simply can't go extremely low right now.

I will be looking at ways to enhance my tolerance/help recover from slip ups and if I find anything relevant. I will keep you all updated accordingly.

But if you keep up the speed you will be there in a month. You can now start to buy processed junk food from the supermarket again, which is 99% cheap starches and vegetable oils. In some way, I envy you.

Processed junk food is mostly out on this diet too. I don't think anyone can truly heal with processed food. Some items in restricted quantities might be ok though.

 

[Cirion]

well FWIW I made the decision to try out a vegan inspired diet (with some cheats like I still have gelatin), which inherently is probably going to be way less VA than I was eating (yesterday only tracked 4000 IU VA, and today only 1000IU so far). I'm not doing it because of VA though, so that's a fall-out possible benefit. I am doing it because I now feel convinced that I had way too much protein before. Those who have followed my posts know this is a big reversal of previous stances. Lol. But I watched an extremely compelling one hour lecture on it and it's enough to make me try it. this won't necessarily confirm the VA theory, and it's actually different than many of you still eating beef which I have now cut out 100% along other meats (and dairy).

 

[InChristAlone]

So I haven't been feeling like myself lately, but I just realized with the processed food comment that I'm actually better off this winter than I was last winter. I had a bad menstrual cycle in terms of my mental health, but I realized that I didn't get the acid reflux I had been getting towards the end and my diet is by no means great. I even ate about 500 calories of doritos the other day and NO digestive issue. In the past that would have certainly caused gallbladder issues along with nausea. Like what the heck! I mean I as a kid I could eat an entire full size bag of doritos in a day and be fine. But then after going 'healthy' I couldn't tolerate much junk at all without feeling like absolute crap. I also ate gummy bears without nausea. Hurray!! The only difference this winter, is no vitamin A supplements or liver and trying to minimize dairy although I did eat quite a bit of ice cream. I also stopped eating much tomato based stuff, so minimized pizza. Tomato was my acid reflux trigger. But junk food would always cause it too.

So maybe there have been benefits but it's clouded by emotional stress. I'm dropping the dairy though just to see how things go.

 

[Amazoniac]

This is possible. Do you have evidence of this? You may have shared some in one of your "information dumps". Maybe I'll go back and look.

They're only effective antioxidants if the reactions are terminated, so the cooperating nutrients are needed, otherwise we's left with these riskier odd fatty products around. In case there's nowhere to go, perhaps some that can might be funneled to the poison A metabolism as an attempt to make something useful out of them, recovering as poisonal or straight poisonoic acid, to be stored or eventually cleared. But in the meantime they might compete for nutrients, enzymes, the guarding proteins, and so on.

Maybe... I am not as convinced that people who say they eat low PUFA actually eat low PUFA. I mean, what does "low" even mean when you say you're eating low PUFA? For myself, if I am above 3g in a day I consider that high, I consider 1-3g range normal (again, for me), and I consider under 1g to be low and it's rare for me unless I am actively trying to keep it low (currently I am logging my food, and I was at 0.8g yesterday). Ray tends to say keep it under 4g. There is probably no hard rule on this, but if you're eating in the range of 4-10g per day I imagine this is enough to cause problems, especially if you have a history of illness and already have some stored (and especially if you're overweight).

That being said, I do believe there are other things that cause problems. I think it's possible that vitamin A can cause similar problems to the PUFA, and I think it is even more possible for carotene to do this. This is really the only reason I have shown interest in this thread, because I believe there is a chance that carotene and vitamin A can actually have PUFAesque effects.

But there's something unique to them because the detrimental effects appear too fast, contrary to what usually happens with PUFAs in general. They do have a different behavior.

Though this is not directly about Vitamin A, I think my experience will illustrate the ridiculousness of how Vitamin A is portrayed often as the "eye vitamin" and is evidence personally for me that its quite a load of crap.

I decided to take B6(pyrodoxine hydrochoride) supplements a few days ago as I suspected dopamine deficiency.

After a few days I noticed that my eyes adapt to sunlight after being indoors instantaneously. Bright sunlight no longer disturbs me greatly like it used to. It seems unreal that one single vitamin could do that especially since I had high natural b6 intake from beef on a regular basis.

The high amounts of preformed retinol I used to eat from liver that I had daily months ago had no such effect on my eyes, its like it was doing nothing and possibly worsening my eye health in long run. A few days of dedicated B6 supplementation(100mg per meal) and I have seen big improvement in my eyes... sharpness, straining, light sensitivity. Falls in line with grant saying all thats in the eye is protein, b and c vitamins. And now I've seen it hold true with my own eyes.

Guru, it's not a matter of experience on what improves your vision, it's part of the eye. How will it function without it?

Now that good guy Garrett Smith is well on his way to saving humanity. He has pivoted and will save the dolphins. #winning #savethedolphins #mymanGarrettwootwoot

Even dolphins in captivity are being poisoned with Vitamin A

Night blindness and dry eye are CAUSED by excess retinoic acid Poison/"Vitamin A", NOT by deficiency!

It could be much more valuable if those of you who are going extreme were also contributing to get to the crux of the matter, such links are just reinforcement stuff. That's why dropping the poison idea is needed. Not having in mind that the issue is settled will return the curiosity required to solve the actual problem and since you know what feels like, your impressions could speed up our progress here.

By the way, makes no sense to spend a penny on those questionable antidote E products if Zeus sells a neat product.

 

[InChristAlone]

They're only effective antioxidants if the reactions are terminated, so the cooperating nutrients are needed, otherwise we's left with these riskier odd fatty products around. In case there's nowhere to go, perhaps some that can might be funneled to the poison A metabolism as an attempt to make something useful out of them, recovering as poisonal or straight poisonoic acid, to be stored or eventually cleared. But in the meantime they might compete for nutrients, enzymes, the guarding proteins, and so on.

But there's something unique to them because the detrimental effects appear too fast, contrary to what usually happens with PUFAs in general. They do have a different behavior.

Guru, it's not a matter of experience on what improves your vision, it's part of the eye. Extract it and try to make it function.


It could be much more valuable if those of you who are going extreme were also contributing to get to the crux of the matter, such links are just reinforcement stuff. That's why dropping the poison idea is needed. Not having in mind that the issue is settled will return the curiosity needed to solve the actual problem and since you know what feels like, your impressions could speed up our progress here.

By the way, makes no sense to spend a penny on those questionable antidote E products if Zeus sells a neat product.

Amazon guru,
Hi! There may be antidotes, but clearly with a Ray Peat diet, many were supplementing vitamin E and using absurd amounts of calcium. And maybe using thyroid or progesterone. Should that not have protected them from overload? I mean if you email Ray he will tell you have you checked your thyroid status? and if it is low have you tried a thyroid supplement? Been there done that. Crashed so bad I regret ever listening to this advice. And by crash I mean using thyroid and coffee while losing a bunch of weight, not being able to sleep, drowning myself in dairy, having hot flashes like a woman in menopause, and still praising Peat.

 

[Pulstar]

Someone put this link on earlier https://ods.od.nih.gov/pubs/usdandb/VitaminA-Content.pdf

Thanks Dolomite. Here you can also do a search by a nutrient or by a product Food Composition Databases Show Nutrients List

 

[Dolomite]

Thanks Dolomite. Here you can also do a search by a nutrient or by a product Food Composition Databases Show Nutrients List

Yes, that is a good one for all nutrients. Thanks.