Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Captain_Coconut]

I’m signing off from RP forum indefinitely. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you feel like keeping in touch and we can exchange emails.

Peace out y’all!

 

[sunraiser]

I’m signing off from RP forum indefinitely. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you feel like keeping in touch and we can exchange emails.

Peace out y’all!

Good luck in your journey, capitan!

 

[Amazoniac]

Thanks, I'll take a look.

Currently, I have nothing of value to add to your last post. Thank you for all the information though! Much appreciated.

Re: Effect of Lipid Peroxidation Products on the Activity of Human Retinol Dehydrogenase 12 (RDH12) and Retinoid Metabolism

It seems that 4-HNE is a legitimate concern when it comes to vitamin A going haywire. As far as I can tell it prevents retinol from being converted into the more stable storage form of retinyl esters by inhibiting LRAT, which causes retinol to build up. Whether this leads to anything meaningful is the question I suppose. 4-HNE also seems to inhibit the production of retinoic acid, which would presumably affect all areas in the body where retinoic acid is the active retinoid (everywhere but the eye?). This seems like a pretty big deal...


"While 4-HNE does not appear to inhibit the retinaldehyde reductase activity of RDH12, it profoundly affects the overall retinoid homeostasis in the cells by inhibiting the retinol esterification and retinoic acid biosynthesis. The finding that 4-HNE inhibits the activities of both ALDH1A1 and LRAT offers an explanation for the surprising increase in retinol levels observed in the cells incubated with 4-HNE: inhibition of retinaldehyde oxidation to retinoic acid by ALDH results in an increased flux of retinaldehyde through retinaldehyde reductases and, therefore, an increased biosynthesis of retinol, whereas the inhibition of LRAT activity further raises the levels of cellular retinol by blocking its conversion to retinyl esters"

"The finding that 4-HNE strongly inhibits the biosynthesis of retinyl esters and retinoic acid suggests that oxidative stress and lipid peroxidation can have deleterious consequences for the overall retinoid homeostasis in the cells."

- Aldehyde - Wikipedia

"The word aldehyde was coined by Justus von Liebig as a contraction of the Latin alcohol dehydrogenatus (dehydrogenated alcohol)."

Which explains this.​

- Interaction of aldehydes derived from lipid peroxidation and membrane proteins

"A great variety of compounds are formed during lipid peroxidation of polyunsaturated fatty acids of membrane phospholipids. Among them, bioactive aldehydes, such as 4-hydroxyalkenals, malondialdehyde (MDA) and acrolein, have received particular attention since they have been considered as toxic messengers that can propagate and amplify oxidative injury."

"Due to the high chemical reactivity of aldehydes, mammals have evolved a battery of enzymes which convert these compounds to less reactive chemical species. The main reactions of aldehydes are the adduction with glutathione (GSH), which can either occur spontaneously or be catalyzed by glutathione S-transferases (GSTs), the reduction to alcohol by aldo–keto reductases (AKRs) or alcohol dehydrogenase and the oxidation to acid by aldehyde dehydrogenases. The metabolism of aldehydes has been reviewed in excellent mode by Esterbauer and collaborators (1991). More recent reviews were focused on the biochemistry of lipid peroxidation products (Guéraud et al., 2010) and acrolein biotransformation (Stevens and Maier, 2008). The catabolic rates of the various aldehydes contribute, together with their rates of production from lipid peroxidation, in determining their steady-state intracellular concentrations."

"At high concentrations, all these aldehydes were found to play a rôle in the toxic effects of lipid peroxidation. Aldehyde toxicity is mainly due to the alterations of several cell functions, which mostly depend on the formation of covalent adducts with cellular proteins (Grimsrud et al., 2008). Due to their amphiphilic nature, aldehydes can easily diffuse across membranes and can covalently modify any protein in the cytoplasm and nucleus, far from their site of origin (Negre-Salvayre et al., 2008). Similarly, the aldehydes formed outside the cells (i.e., in a site of inflammation or in plasma), can react with adjacent cells, even in cases when they are not primary sites of lipid peroxidation. In the latter instance, plasma membrane proteins represent the first targets for adduct formation. Exogenous or endogenous aldehydes can react also with nuclear proteins, thus modulating protein expression through their reaction with transcription factors or other regulatory elements (Jacobs and Marnett, 2010)."

"Modification of self antigens in the course of oxidative stress, by adduct formation with reactive products of lipid peroxidation, HNE being one of the most commonly involved, is generally regarded to as a mechanism by which concomitant modification of self and neoantigen formation may lead to the breaking of tolerance to self antigens and, thus, to the pathogenesis of autoimmune disease. Indeed, it was known for a long time that abnormally high levels of HNE-protein adducts can be detected in the sera of children affected by autoimmune diseases (Grune et al., 1997). According to this view, cross-linking of HNE with self antigens would be instrumental in creating neoantigens from formerly tolerated autoantigens and, thus, initiating autoimmunity."​

- β-Carotene Degradation Products – Formation, Toxicity and Prevention of Toxicity

- Aldehydes release zinc from proteins. A pathway from oxidative stress/lipid peroxidation to cellular functions of zinc


Something has to also explain why these poisonoid and carotenoid products are being more potent than other unsaturated fats since they're consumed in lower amounts [a few mgs compared to grams (unless you're haidut, not to be confused with adduct)].

Gurus' diets have been low in PUFA for a good while, there has to be more players involved that are responsible for the perpgoehwate inflammation. We doesn't know if easing it suffices to fix the issue over the time, hopefully yes. It's still worth not getting too caught up in poison avoidance to the point of neglecting finding out the underlying cause. Assuming it's poisonous is a discouragement for this kind of investigation.

 

[sunraiser]

I have many symptoms of vitamin A deficiency (or excess, according to this thread); but my diet consists of a lot of vitamin A containing foods. Is there any possibility that my body cannot utilize the vitamin? Is there maybe a cofactor missing? At the moment I am testing for Wilson's disease because of low ceruloplasmin. I always thought I was either toxic/deficient in vitamin A or toxic/deficient in copper. No idea which. It's very confusing.

Also, just to add my anecdotal experience. Liver does not function as a vitamin A source for me.

Sweet potatoes and especially retinol supplements have very different (positive) effects. Liver seems to as actively "use up" retinol for me.

Perhaps it's not bioavailable in its storage form in liver, or perhaps my body is just odd!

NB I took accutane for 6 months.

Oh, and have you had an alkaline phosphatase blood test?

 

[somuch4food]

Gurus' diets have been low in PUFA for a good while, there has to be more players involved that are responsible for causing the perpgoehwate inflammation. We doesn't know if easing it suffices to fix the issue over the time, hopefully yes. It's still worth not getting too caught up in poison avoidance to the point of neglecting finding out the underlying cause. Assuming it's poisonous is a discouragement for this kind of investigation.

This is important. Why can poison A become so problematic ? Calling it a poison is a simple explanation.

Grant mentions it destroys epithelium tissues and cell membranes. Why is it allowed to do this damage?

 

[Pdohlen]

We should add vitamin C as a potential supplement to use on this diet

The only good supplement I found after years of experimenting and of course its the one Ray peat doesn't approve of lol

I suggest to make Lemon Marmelade/Lemonade, good ratio of Vit A/Vit C. Below is per 100g

 

[schultz]

"Modification of self antigens in the course of oxidative stress, by adduct formation with reactive products of lipid peroxidation, HNE being one of the most commonly involved, is generally regarded to as a mechanism by which concomitant modification of self and neoantigen formation may lead to the breaking of tolerance to self antigens and, thus, to the pathogenesis of autoimmune disease. Indeed, it was known for a long time that abnormally high levels of HNE-protein adducts can be detected in the sera of children affected by autoimmune diseases (Grune et al., 1997). According to this view, cross-linking of HNE with self antigens would be instrumental in creating neoantigens from formerly tolerated autoantigens and, thus, initiating autoimmunity."

The common definition of autoimmune disease...(from dictionary.com)

"a disease resulting from a disordered immune reaction in which antibodies are produced against one's own tissues"

The assumption made it seems (and wrongfully IMO) is that the tissues are perfectly healthy and the body just decides to attack them.

Meanwhile there is this huge line of research on HNE-protein adducts and nobody seems to talk about this stuff. It's just so weird to me...

It must be possible that carotenes are less regulated than PUFAs in terms of distribution in the body, and this makes them more prone to cause problems in spite of being consumed in lower amounts [a few mgs compared to grams (unless you're haidut, not to be confused with adduct)].

This is possible. Do you have evidence of this? You may have shared some in one of your "information dumps". Maybe I'll go back and look.

Gurus' diets have been low in PUFA for a good while, there has to be more players involved that are responsible for causing the perpgoehwate inflammation.

Maybe... I am not as convinced that people who say they eat low PUFA actually eat low PUFA. I mean, what does "low" even mean when you say you're eating low PUFA? For myself, if I am above 3g in a day I consider that high, I consider 1-3g range normal (again, for me), and I consider under 1g to be low and it's rare for me unless I am actively trying to keep it low (currently I am logging my food, and I was at 0.8g yesterday). Ray tends to say keep it under 4g. There is probably no hard rule on this, but if you're eating in the range of 4-10g per day I imagine this is enough to cause problems, especially if you have a history of illness and already have some stored (and especially if you're overweight).

That being said, I do believe there are other things that cause problems. I think it's possible that vitamin A can cause similar problems to the PUFA, and I think it is even more possible for carotene to do this. This is really the only reason I have shown interest in this thread, because I believe there is a chance that carotene and vitamin A can actually have PUFAesque effects.

It's still worth not getting too caught up in poison avoidance to the point of neglecting finding out the underlying cause.

I agree. Why not try and figure it out? If someone knows the details maybe they can make decisions based on those details and possibly figure out ways of increasing their intake of carotene/vitamin A without causing problems. For lots of people the puppy love stage of a VAD diet will wear off an they will start thinking "Do I have to do this for the rest of my life?". Maybe not my friends!

Assuming it's poisonous is a discouragement for this kind of investigation.

Indeed! But I think people are encouraged by their results and are more focused on avoidance at this point. That's understandable, but I think they should leave the question planted in their mind of "maybe there is more to this than just X = poison" @somuch4food seems to be open to all possibilities.

 

[schultz]

This is important. Why can poison A become so problematic ? Calling it a poison is a simple explanation.

Grant mentions it destroys epithelium tissues and cell membranes. Why is it allowed to do this damage?

If it is indeed actually doing damage (it is possible) then it would be good to find out why.

I think our two biggest clues are these...

"Oxygen pressure is considered determinant for the anti/pro-oxidant activity of β-carotene. At low oxygen tension, typical of the most human tissues, β-carotene acts as a chain breaking antioxidant. With increasing oxygen tension, β-carotene is readily autoxidized and consequently may display a pro-oxidant behaviour (Kikugawa et al., 1997)."

This fact suggests that peroxidation degradation products of carotenoids at certain concentration can be more toxic than corresponding PUFA peroxidation products.

If someone has stored so much carotene that their skin is turning colour it seems to me that they might start achieving this. If they are turning colour, they are likely hypothyroid or are consuming mass quantities of carotenoids (or both).

In this sense, it is expected that these products participate in the same reactions as the aldehydic lipid peroxidation products, malondialdehyde (MDA) and 4-hydroxynonenal (HNE). These include reactions with amino acid residues of proteins and peptides and with nucleic acids and lipids. The potential toxic effects of carotenoids oxidation products may indeed involve this type of reactions (Siems et al., 2005)."

 

[schultz]

It was also stated that retinoids may be excreted in the breath (≈ 10%); however, the extent of their excretion in saliva, sweat or tears is unknown (Burri and Clifford, 2004; Erdman et al., 1993).

So kissing people who have lots of stored vitamin A might be off limits for the VAD peoples? lol

Where does that go on the food avoidance list?

(I'm teasing of course)

 

[sunraiser]

That being said, I do believe there are other things that cause problems. I think it's possible that vitamin A can cause similar problems to the PUFA, and I think it is even more possible for carotene to do this. This is really the only reason I have shown interest in this thread, because I believe there is a chance that carotene and vitamin A can actually have PUFAesque effects.

It's important to keep an open mind.

For example, I eat whole food pufa to craving with no discernible effects - I would say mackerel, avocado, salmon, cashews and pistachios are a staple of my diet at this point.

I sometimes go a week without wanting any of them but never too much time without at least a small serving.

Liver and oysters on the other hand can cause problems for me.

It's always about rate limiting factors imo, be it lifestyle or diet.

 

[Vinero]

That's my life lol.



@postman

Speaking as someone who experienced jaundice from vit A toxicity years ago when I was vegan, I can confirm brain fog is an associated symptom, however, I think in regards to my latest health crisis it is just another confounding factor, as is much of the other stuff that was brought up on my 'Sicker than ever' thread. Vit A excess in a hypothyroid state will bring on toxicity, which I learned from Doc RP (I haven't read through all of Grant Genereaux's theory) so indeed it has to be acknowledged but meanwhile one should be really focused on optimizing thyroid function IMHO. I assume this has been brought up at some point in this gargantuan thread, or maybe not since Grant seems to think Vit A is not a nutrient at all and is only a toxin if I understand correctly. I don't eat a zero Vit A diet but there's somethings I have to stay away from because they give me issues almost immediately, possibly due to the Vit A content (liver mainly, all high beta carotene foods, I try to stick to white carrots for salad, Uncle Matts OJ seems to be ok though). I tried a few a A,D,K supp's for brief periods before I knew better.
The game changer for me was a zero starch diet, that's what brought me and my brain cells back to life. I'm sure Vit A, EMF's, mold in my house, and a bunch of other things all contributed to my severe illness but ultimately it was the endotoxin and it's cascade of disastrous effects that was root issue. I'm not completely well yet but I'm better than I have been in years. I doubt a low Vit A diet would be possible without starches.

Focusing on optimizing thyroid function is useless if you are suffering from Vitamin A toxicity. Don't spread dangerous lies like these. The reverse approach is the only approach that works. Focusing on combating the vitamin A toxicity will lead optimized thyroid hormone levels. Thyroid function can only be optimized when the vitamin A toxicity is dealt with first. The ingredients to dealing with vitamin A toxicity are animal protein, starch and time. In other words, if you eat nothing but White Rice and Beef for a few months exclusively, the vitamin A toxicity situation will be under control. You will witness your thyroid hormone level increase all by itself, without taking any external hormones such as thyroid, progesterone, pregnenolone etc. One sign your thyroid levels are increasing is if your eyebrows are getting wider. The external part of the eyebrows tend to fall out during times of hypothyroidism (caused by vitamin A toxicity). People who are on the low vitamin A diet are reporting increased eyebrow growth and thicker, more attractive eyebrows. Once you see results like these, it's natural that you want to continue the low vitamin A diet. It makes people feel so good, so alive, and become the most beautiful version of themselves. Nobody will ever want to go back to eating foods containing vitamin A. Focusing on increasing thyroid function while still eating foods containing vitamin A is a waste of time.

 

[somuch4food]

Focusing on optimizing thyroid function is useless if you are suffering from Vitamin A toxicity. Don't spread dangerous lies like these. The reverse approach is the only approach that works. Focusing on combating the vitamin A toxicity will lead optimized thyroid hormone levels. Thyroid function can only be optimized when the vitamin A toxicity is dealt with first. The ingredients to dealing with vitamin A toxicity are animal protein, starch and time. In other words, if you eat nothing but White Rice and Beef for a few months exclusively, the vitamin A toxicity situation will be under control. You will witness your thyroid hormone level increase all by itself, without taking any external hormones such as thyroid, progesterone, pregnenolone etc. One sign your thyroid levels are increasing is if your eyebrows are getting wider. The external part of the eyebrows tend to fall out during times of hypothyroidism (caused by vitamin A toxicity). People who are on the low vitamin A diet are reporting increased eyebrow growth and thicker, more attractive eyebrows. Once you see results like these, it's natural that you want to continue the low vitamin A diet. It makes people feel so good, so alive, and become the most beautiful version of themselves. Nobody will ever want to go back to eating foods containing vitamin A. Focusing on increasing thyroid function while still eating foods containing vitamin A is a waste of time.

You're dangerous, man. Many experience setbacks at the beginning. By spreading a world too good to be true, they might stop halfway through healing thinking it was the wrong path for them.

I've always had thick eyebrows. It doesn't mean I don't have health issues. Hairs have always been on the thick side for me on any part of my body.

On Grant's forum, someone also mentioned he lost some eyelashes. What do you do of this? They are not on an exclusive Rice and Beef diet?

 

[Pulstar]

Folks, could anyone please post a list or a link to such list, containing top 10 or 15 (more is better) foods with maximum amount of VA per 100 grams of product or something like that? I would be grateful.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Maybe... I am not as convinced that people who say they eat low PUFA actually eat low PUFA. I mean, what does "low" even mean when you say you're eating low PUFA? For myself, if I am above 3g in a day I consider that high, I consider 1-3g range normal (again, for me), and I consider under 1g to be low and it's rare for me unless I am actively trying to keep it low (currently I am logging my food, and I was at 0.8g yesterday). Ray tends to say keep it under 4g. There is probably no hard rule on this, but if you're eating in the range of 4-10g per day I imagine this is enough to cause problems, especially if you have a history of illness and already have some stored (and especially if you're overweight).

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

[Dolomite]

Folks, could anyone please post a list or a link to such list, containing top 10 or 15 (more is better) foods with maximum amount of VA per 100 grams of product or something like that? I would be grateful.

Someone put this link on earlier https://ods.od.nih.gov/pubs/usdandb/VitaminA-Content.pdf

 

[Vinero]

You're dangerous, man. Many experience setbacks at the beginning. By spreading a world too good to be true, they might stop halfway through healing thinking it was the wrong path for them.

I've always had thick eyebrows. It doesn't mean I don't have health issues. Hairs have always been on the thick side for me on any part of my body.

On Grant's forum, someone also mentioned he lost some eyelashes. What do you do of this? They are not on an exclusive Rice and Beef diet?

No, you are dangerous. You are creating doubt in people's minds about the low vitamin A diet. Your approach is one of taking the middle road, but that is the wrong approach to take. Vitamin A is a poison which is responsible for taking people's life and happiness away by causing the body to self-destruct. Living with auto-immune diseases is hell on earth. Your approach will cause people to delay getting started on the low vitamin A diet because they think Vitamin A is no big deal, everyone is eating it right? We have to help people suffering from these diseases to get started on the low vitamin A diet. It's the best we can do for our fellow human beings. People will never develop their full potential if they don't start on the low vitamin A diet soon.

 

[somuch4food]

No, you are dangerous. You are creating doubt in people's minds about the low vitamin A diet. Your approach is one of taking the middle road, but that is the wrong approach to take. Vitamin A is a poison which is responsible for taking people's life and happiness away by causing the body to self-destruct. Living with auto-immune diseases is hell on earth. Your approach will cause people to delay getting started on the low vitamin A diet because they think Vitamin A is no big deal, everyone is eating it right? We have to help people suffering from these diseases to get started on the low vitamin A diet. It's the best we can do for our fellow human beings. People will never develop their full potential if they don't start on the low vitamin A diet soon.

As I posted to you before, there are other diets that people have success with to cure their autoimmune issues. I do think Grant could have identified one of the worse and unsuspected causative agent in retinoic acid and carotenoids, but I don't think that simply avoiding A is the final answer. There are other factors like the importance of proteins, vitamin E and zinc in creating resistance to these damaging compounds. I want us to get to the bottom of this and not stop at avoid all A and you're good.

I have reduced my B and iron fortified wheat consumption and upped oats as an alternative recently and I seem to be getting better. Fortification or gluten might be another important factor for my case. It's also frequently avoided by those going low A despite being low in A and some could be seeing most of their benefits from this change alone. They won't know unless they challenge their bodies which you are not encouraging.

I do not want to remove foods from my diet because of dogma anymore. You mentioned "Learned helplessness" in another post. Blindly following dietary advices from the Internet is "Learned helplessness" by relying on external sources to make decision for yourself. That's what I was doing last year and I was going in a very wrong direction. I'm decoding my body and want to understand its reactions.

 

[Dolomite]

I've always had thick eyebrows. It doesn't mean I don't have health issues. Hairs have always been on the thick side for me on any part of my body.

I think you are actually very healthy. The low vitamin a diet didn’t seem to make much difference for you. I doubt you have too much built up in your liver. I never experienced health problems until I went through menopause. At that time I must have had a big drop in beneficial hormones and all the things I experienced are described by Dr. Peat. I have a history of eating high beta carotene foods, taking multi vitamins, and in the last three years high consumption of milk and OJ. I have almost always eaten one egg per day.

I have only been low A for a little over four weeks and I can tell by my ability to eat a lot, temperatures, and weight loss that my thyroid function is better. This has been a great experiment. This forum is populated with a bunch of young people who have ailments that that only old people or someone using too many pharmaceuticals should have. A simple diet that helps makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Vinero]

As I posted to you before, there are other diets that people have success with to cure their autoimmune issues. I do think Grant could have identified one of the worse and unsuspected causative agent in retinoic acid and carotenoids, but I don't think that simply avoiding A is the final answer. There are other factors like the importance of proteins, vitamin E and zinc in creating resistance to these damaging compounds. I want us to get to the bottom of this and not stop at avoid all A and you're good.

I have reduced my B and iron fortified wheat consumption and upped oats as an alternative recently and I seem to be getting better. Fortification or gluten might be another important factor for my case. It's also frequently avoided by those going low A despite being low in A and some could be seeing most of their benefits from this change alone. They won't know unless they challenge their bodies which you are not encouraging.

I do not want to remove foods from my diet because of dogma anymore. You mentioned "Learned helplessness" in another post. Blindly following dietary advices from the Internet is "Learned helplessness" by relying on external sources to make decision for yourself. That's what I was doing last year and I was going in a very wrong direction. I'm decoding my body and want to understand its reactions.

Other diets besides the Low vitamin A diet are indeed curing people of auto-immune diseases. Examples are the carnivore diet, the potato diet, the steak-and-potato diet, the grape juice fast, the rice diet etc. All of these diets are low vitamin A diets, it's just that people are not aware of it. They are unintentionally eating a low vitamin A diet and are curing their auto-immune diseases as a result. They mistakenly believe that it's low-carb that cured their disease, in the case of the carnivore diet. Or they might think that cutting animal protein is what healed their disease in the case of the potato diet, rice diet, or grape juice fast. The guys who are eating the steak-and-potato diet are just eating that way because they like to eat steak and potatoes, it's their favorite food. These guys are the toughest, strongest, most robust humans you tend to find in the western world. They don't care about dieting or health, many smoke and drink alcohol as well. Their vitamin A intake is zero. They probably don't even know what the words retinol and beta-carotene mean. When people mention to them that they should eat more fruits, vegetables and dairy they will laugh at them. Everybody wishes they could be one of those steak-and-potato guys. It's the opposite of learned helplessness. We are just eating those foods that are the most delicious and produce the greatest health outcomes. We know this from experience, not following a dietary dogma. Beef and White Rice have proven themselves worthy of being eaten, because of the way the make us feel. Potatoes are amazing as well, but White Rice has absolutely zero vitamin A. So for people who are perfectionists White Rice is preferable to potatoes.

 

[redsun]

Though this is not directly about Vitamin A, I think my experience will illustrate the ridiculousness of how Vitamin A is portrayed often as the "eye vitamin" and is evidence personally for me that its quite a load of crap.

I decided to take B6(pyrodoxine hydrochoride) supplements a few days ago as I suspected dopamine deficiency.

After a few days I noticed that my eyes adapt to sunlight after being indoors instantaneously. Bright sunlight no longer disturbs me greatly like it used to. It seems unreal that one single vitamin could do that especially since I had high natural b6 intake from beef on a regular basis.

The high amounts of preformed retinol I used to eat from liver that I had daily months ago had no such effect on my eyes, its like it was doing nothing and possibly worsening my eye health in long run. A few days of dedicated B6 supplementation(100mg per meal) and I have seen big improvement in my eyes... sharpness, straining, light sensitivity. Falls in line with grant saying all thats in the eye is protein, b and c vitamins. And now I've seen it hold true with my own eyes.