Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

Amazoniac

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I found this strange at first glance. This conversion is being done in the intestine, right? The presence of vitamin E sort of communicates that it's appropriate for the conversion to take place (lowered inflammation)? Or is it "saturating" the carotene in the presence of bacteria, just like with fats? I guess I don't know much about how the conversion from carotene to vitamin A actually occurs in the gut and the mechanisms behind it in general, so I will look into that.
According to them, carotenoids are more prone to oxidation under low oxygen tension, but most food sources also provide some vitamin E. It must require to be present in significant amounts so that it's sacrificed while sparing carotenoids, which in turn can proceed to be converted without disturbance.

Issues converting T4 to T3? T4 lowers TSH, but if it isn't being converted to T3 then the person becomes even more hypothyroid because their TSH has been lowered. Did they mention T3 in those studies?
Yes, that appears to be the case. Worth reading:
[29a] Thyroxine and hypervitaminosis-A

Great find! I was looking for something like this.

So far I've read the abstract...

"...and that medium-chain aldehydes, especially 4-hydroxynonenal, severely disrupt cellular retinoid homeostasis."

Excited to read the whole thing!
Since we is on the topic of aldehyds, you also mentioned Alberto and Trabis' beloved methylglyoxal, which happens to be involved in diabetic damage once it's out of control (search for it in case it interests you); the following is related..

If we put aside all functions of poison A that involve the differentiation of cells, remodeling of tissues, formation of eye structures, and so on; we can focus on its direct involvement in vision:

- Vitamin A and Vision
- Metabolism of Carotenoids and Retinoids Related to Vision
- Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity
- Retina, Retinol, Retinal and the Natural History of Vitamin A as a Light Sensor

"Broadened biological activity of vitamin A is a double-edged sword that also leads to broader toxicity caused by excessive vitamin A or its derivatives (Table 4). Retinoid toxicity can be caused by physical properties of retinoid (e.g., acting like a detergent at sufficient concentrations), chemical reactivity of retinoid (e.g., modification of random proteins by free retinal), or inappropriate biological activities (e.g., retinoic acid activating or suppressing gene expression at the wrong cell type or at the wrong time) (Table 4)."

"Retinal is the vitamin A derivative that is most toxic, due to its chemical reactivity."​

The retina is in question and it consists of layers at the back of the eye. The known cone cells there are functional during daytime in bright light conditions, whereas the rod cells are relatively less sensitive, so they is more useful in dim lighting, allowing the guru to mostly sense shapes.

Both cells have their proteins (opsins) varying in structure to be sensitive to specific light spectrums, with cone cells having a group of opsins to allow them to interact with wavelengths respective to what we perceive as red, green, and blue spectrums (therefore forming colors). The poem is not in vain, it's because all these proteins are attached to poisonal, and their combination yields the familiar molecules required for vision: photopsins and rhodopsin.

When light strikes these molecules, it cleaves them with changes in conformation of poisonal from cis- to trans-poisonal. This signals the cerebra, and once you have multiple signals on different spots you start to form images. It's 11-cis-poisonal that is found attached to opsin through the protein's lysine residue. And this ties in with what has been posted previously on aldehydes being considered toxic due to their reactivity, being related to the carotenoid breakdown-products and all being prone to be quite harmful when they go awry.

In the first linked article they also claim that the "life time of all-trans-retinal is determined by the activity of RDH8 [117] and other dehydrogenases of the rod outer segment [44,70,108], which reduce the aldehyde to the alcohol (all-trans-retinol), a less chemically reactive species". It should be obvious that there is a good reason why poisonal is used for vision because it can be challenging to guard it, especially under brutal excitation.

They often refer to it as visual cycle to allude to the regenereuxion of the required form, but the process is more elaborate than it seems, it's detailed in the articles.

The point is that poison A is indispensable and irreplaceable for vision, it's at its fundamental core, and this simple aspect by itself invalidates all delusional speculations about its nature. Now get this (again):
Garrett Smith said:
If you like your eyes, you shouldn't like Poison/"Vitamin A".


--
- Alterations in Vitamin A and E Levels in Liver and Testis of Wild Ungulates from a Lead Mining Area
- Beriberi, White Rice, and Vitamin B (978-0756763848)
 
Last edited:

Dolomite

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I am pretty sure I am losing the overall yellowness to my skin. I have been yellow for so long seeing my face and fingers looking pale and “washed out” is odd. The back of my hands still seem yellow compared to my fingers and that really became apparent today.
 

somuch4food

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! !??
Weird thing to say seeing how meat is loaded with b vitamins. What would be the alternative energizing food for you?

I personally can't live a single day without red meat but I workout quite intensely and feel difference in performance and aggression right away with any other meat so that might be a factor.

It might have more to do with the proteins or minerals than vitamins.

But you are eating a ton of other foods probably. Try eating nothing but White rice and Beef for a week straight.

If I tried it, I would probably go with a rice porridge as breakfast. The few times I've tried more proteins at breakfast it never stuck. I need mostly carbs with a little fat for breakfast. I'm not there yet though. I want variety and I'm trying to figure out how to implement it in my current reality.

Russets are very white inside.

I second russets. I bought potatoes labelled as 'Red potatoes' in the last few weeks since the russets looked bad, the flesh was pretty white and it might have had to do it with my nonprogress.
 

dwide

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Thirding russet potatoes. In addition to the white flesh, I think they taste way better than red (waxy) potatoes.

Plus, they're great for roasting and frying.
 

Lynne

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So what should these people eat then? White rice is the most easily digestible starch and it is free of vitamin A. Other starches might have some vitamin A or are more difficult to digest like wheat.

Maybe at least some of the people having trouble with white rice are eating basmati or another of the higher amylose (resistant starch) rice varieties. I stick to the highly digestible, low-amylose var like Jasmine, glutinous or sushi rice. If unsure go by the GI rating: higher GI = lower amylose (+ vice versa).
 

postman

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Yes, vitamin C might help to body to heal faster from the vitamin A toxicity. However, thinking the body needs supplements is a very dangerous way to think. Once you believe the body needs supplements and/or hormones, you might consider adding b-vitamins, vitamin E, vitamin K, zinc, progesterone etc. I've got to be honest here and tell everyone that I felt worse when using any of these supplements for multiple days in a row. For example, taking zinc feels very good the first day. The second day it feels less good, and the third day it actually lowers my mood and energy levels. I also caught a cold sometime ago when supplementing vitamin E, thinking it would speed up healing by protecting against vitamin A toxicity. Well the vitamin E might have speed up my detox symptoms, because they happened after using vitamin E. I am not totally convinced all supplements are worthless though. Vitamin C and magnesium seem to have a lot of potential upsides and no downsides. I also think the body doesn't really need the fat soluble vitamins. I have eaten a low vitamin A diet in the past and never took any supplements at all. So that proves the body can be perfectly healthy without any vitamin supplements.
Personally I do get deficient in iodine and vitamin C if I eat nothing rice and beef. I get very dry eyes and it's quickly resolved by taking vitamin C. I think we most often need much less than we think though. For example my iodine supplement has 400 µg per drop, this is way too much for me. I put that one drop in a glass of water, and then I take a sip of it every day, it lasts me for 7-14 days. I could just use iodized salt but I'm avoiding that because of the excipients.
 

schultz

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Yes, that appears to be the case. Worth reading:
[29a] Thyroxine and hypervitaminosis-A

Thanks, I'll take a look.

Currently, I have nothing of value to add to your last post. Thank you for all the information though! Much appreciated.

Re: Effect of Lipid Peroxidation Products on the Activity of Human Retinol Dehydrogenase 12 (RDH12) and Retinoid Metabolism

It seems that 4-HNE is a legitimate concern when it comes to vitamin A going haywire. As far as I can tell it prevents retinol from being converted into the more stable storage form of retinyl esters by inhibiting LRAT, which causes retinol to build up. Whether this leads to anything meaningful is the question I suppose. 4-HNE also seems to inhibit the production of retinoic acid, which would presumably affect all areas in the body where retinoic acid is the active retinoid (everywhere but the eye?). This seems like a pretty big deal...


"While 4-HNE does not appear to inhibit the retinaldehyde reductase activity of RDH12, it profoundly affects the overall retinoid homeostasis in the cells by inhibiting the retinol esterification and retinoic acid biosynthesis. The finding that 4-HNE inhibits the activities of both ALDH1A1 and LRAT offers an explanation for the surprising increase in retinol levels observed in the cells incubated with 4-HNE: inhibition of retinaldehyde oxidation to retinoic acid by ALDH results in an increased flux of retinaldehyde through retinaldehyde reductases and, therefore, an increased biosynthesis of retinol, whereas the inhibition of LRAT activity further raises the levels of cellular retinol by blocking its conversion to retinyl esters"

"The finding that 4-HNE strongly inhibits the biosynthesis of retinyl esters and retinoic acid suggests that oxidative stress and lipid peroxidation can have deleterious consequences for the overall retinoid homeostasis in the cells."
 

Zpol

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That is a sad thread.
That's my life lol.

Bolding is mine. I find the "swimming head" to be a most interesting comment. I've for sure experienced that -- just feeling completely, 100% "out of it". Grant has mentioned feeling this too. And apparently, so did Charles Darwin.

@postman

Speaking as someone who experienced jaundice from vit A toxicity years ago when I was vegan, I can confirm brain fog is an associated symptom, however, I think in regards to my latest health crisis it is just another confounding factor, as is much of the other stuff that was brought up on my 'Sicker than ever' thread. Vit A excess in a hypothyroid state will bring on toxicity, which I learned from Doc RP (I haven't read through all of Grant Genereaux's theory) so indeed it has to be acknowledged but meanwhile one should be really focused on optimizing thyroid function IMHO. I assume this has been brought up at some point in this gargantuan thread, or maybe not since Grant seems to think Vit A is not a nutrient at all and is only a toxin if I understand correctly. I don't eat a zero Vit A diet but there's somethings I have to stay away from because they give me issues almost immediately, possibly due to the Vit A content (liver mainly, all high beta carotene foods, I try to stick to white carrots for salad, Uncle Matts OJ seems to be ok though). I tried a few a A,D,K supp's for brief periods before I knew better.
The game changer for me was a zero starch diet, that's what brought me and my brain cells back to life. I'm sure Vit A, EMF's, mold in my house, and a bunch of other things all contributed to my severe illness but ultimately it was the endotoxin and it's cascade of disastrous effects that was root issue. I'm not completely well yet but I'm better than I have been in years. I doubt a low Vit A diet would be possible without starches.
 

InChristAlone

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I've decided to test this out. I didn't experience any benefit from going lower in A which was from 700-2,000 IU's. I didn't understand why you'd have to go almost zero but I read some more of Grant's blog and now realize that when your stores are full even 700 could top it off again.
That's my life lol.



@postman

Speaking as someone who experienced jaundice from vit A toxicity years ago when I was vegan, I can confirm brain fog is an associated symptom, however, I think in regards to my latest health crisis it is just another confounding factor, as is much of the other stuff that was brought up on my 'Sicker than ever' thread. Vit A excess in a hypothyroid state will bring on toxicity, which I learned from Doc RP (I haven't read through all of Grant Genereaux's theory) so indeed it has to be acknowledged but meanwhile one should be really focused on optimizing thyroid function IMHO. I assume this has been brought up at some point in this gargantuan thread, or maybe not since Grant seems to think Vit A is not a nutrient at all and is only a toxin if I understand correctly. I don't eat a zero Vit A diet but there's somethings I have to stay away from because they give me issues almost immediately, possibly due to the Vit A content (liver mainly, all high beta carotene foods, I try to stick to white carrots for salad, Uncle Matts OJ seems to be ok though). I tried a few a A,D,K supp's for brief periods before I knew better.
The game changer for me was a zero starch diet, that's what brought me and my brain cells back to life. I'm sure Vit A, EMF's, mold in my house, and a bunch of other things all contributed to my severe illness but ultimately it was the endotoxin and it's cascade of disastrous effects that was root issue. I'm not completely well yet but I'm better than I have been in years. I doubt a low Vit A diet would be possible without starches.
Apples. Very low A
 

postman

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That's my life lol.



@postman

Speaking as someone who experienced jaundice from vit A toxicity years ago when I was vegan, I can confirm brain fog is an associated symptom, however, I think in regards to my latest health crisis it is just another confounding factor, as is much of the other stuff that was brought up on my 'Sicker than ever' thread. Vit A excess in a hypothyroid state will bring on toxicity, which I learned from Doc RP (I haven't read through all of Grant Genereaux's theory) so indeed it has to be acknowledged but meanwhile one should be really focused on optimizing thyroid function IMHO. I assume this has been brought up at some point in this gargantuan thread, or maybe not since Grant seems to think Vit A is not a nutrient at all and is only a toxin if I understand correctly. I don't eat a zero Vit A diet but there's somethings I have to stay away from because they give me issues almost immediately, possibly due to the Vit A content (liver mainly, all high beta carotene foods, I try to stick to white carrots for salad, Uncle Matts OJ seems to be ok though). I tried a few a A,D,K supp's for brief periods before I knew better.
The game changer for me was a zero starch diet, that's what brought me and my brain cells back to life. I'm sure Vit A, EMF's, mold in my house, and a bunch of other things all contributed to my severe illness but ultimately it was the endotoxin and it's cascade of disastrous effects that was root issue. I'm not completely well yet but I'm better than I have been in years. I doubt a low Vit A diet would be possible without starches.

I've decided to test this out. I didn't experience any benefit from going lower in A which was from 700-2,000 IU's. I didn't understand why you'd have to go almost zero but I read some more of Grant's blog and now realize that when your stores are full even 700 could top it off again.

Apples. Very low A

Yeah there are a couple of very low VA fruits. Peeled pears and peeled apples. Nashi pears apparently have almost zero VA. Lychees are supposed to be very low in VA as well. According to some nutrition databases pomegranates are very low VA but I doubt that.
 

Zpol

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Apples. Very low A
Yes, love apples!

Yeah there are a couple of very low VA fruits. Peeled pears and peeled apples. Nashi pears apparently have almost zero VA. Lychees are supposed to be very low in VA as well. According to some nutrition databases pomegranates are very low VA but I doubt that.
Pears, can't find them ripe, lychees, not available where I live. I can't eat dairy either so that's a plus.
 

dwide

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Hi Zpol. Glad you've joined the thread!

Vit A excess in a hypothyroid state will bring on toxicity, which I learned from Doc RP (I haven't read through all of Grant Genereaux's theory) so indeed it has to be acknowledged but meanwhile one should be really focused on optimizing thyroid function IMHO. I assume this has been brought up at some point in this gargantuan thread, or maybe not since Grant seems to think Vit A is not a nutrient at all and is only a toxin if I understand correctly.
For the most part, simply focusing on removing retinol/carotenoids from the diet seems to work for many, and thyroid and other hormones tend to take care of themselves. I haven't been on this diet very long, and cold extremities / cold intolerance is one of the things I hope to improve. Others here, like @Orion or @Blossom , may have more to report re: thyroid function.

The game changer for me was a zero starch diet, that's what brought me and my brain cells back to life. I'm sure Vit A, EMF's, mold in my house, and a bunch of other things all contributed to my severe illness but ultimately it was the endotoxin and it's cascade of disastrous effects that was root issue. I'm not completely well yet but I'm better than I have been in years. I doubt a low Vit A diet would be possible without starches.

There is something about going low/no A that seems to to increase the robustness of one's digestion, and allows them to tolerate more starch. See @Tarmander for an example -- rice no longer gives him restless legs. (He documented this in this thread or his log, sorry don't remember which.) Grant thinks that in IBS, basically the same "dissolving" of the skin that happens in eczema is happening inside the bowels, which could explain why starches could become problematic for those with A overload.

I'm hoping this diet can help with my digestive issues as well. I get bloated from pretty much everything. I've maybe seen some modest improvement, but still too early to tell.

Many people seem to be able to tolerate apples and apple juice. Pears also.
 

InChristAlone

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Hi Zpol. Glad you've joined the thread!


For the most part, simply focusing on removing retinol/carotenoids from the diet seems to work for many, and thyroid and other hormones tend to take care of themselves. I haven't been on this diet very long, and cold extremities / cold intolerance is one of the things I hope to improve. Others here, like @Orion or @Blossom , may have more to report re: thyroid function.



There is something about going low/no A that seems to to increase the robustness of one's digestion, and allows them to tolerate more starch. See @Tarmander for an example -- rice no longer gives him restless legs. (He documented this in this thread or his log, sorry don't remember which.) Grant thinks that in IBS, basically the same "dissolving" of the skin that happens in eczema is happening inside the bowels, which could explain why starches could become problematic for those with A overload.

I'm hoping this diet can help with my digestive issues as well. I get bloated from pretty much everything. I've maybe seen some modest improvement, but still too early to tell.

Many people seem to be able to tolerate apples and apple juice. Pears also.
My cramping disappeared when I started using ascorbic acid. I had at least one bout of extremely painful cramping bowel movements a month before this.
 

postman

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Yes, love apples!

Pears, can't find them ripe, lychees, not available where I live. I can't eat dairy either so that's a plus.
If you can't find ripe fruit, maybe cooking the unripe fruit will make it more agreeable. Or juicing + straining.
 

dwide

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My cramping disappeared when I started using ascorbic acid. I had at least one bout of extremely painful cramping bowel movements a month before this.

I do use around 1-2g of ascorbic acid a day, began recently, and it seems useful. A while ago, before I joined this forum or had heard of Grant's theory, I remember reading your posts championing vitamin C. I bet you're pumped to see the low-A crew promoting it as well haha :p:.

I've never really had cramping though. Just a lot of bloating (or swelling/water retention?) -- which is really just a cosmetic annoyance at this point. A while back I had some hemorrhoids, they've since resolved, was never able to pinpoint an exact cause, though I think it was due to too much resistant starch and other problematic fibers.
 

InChristAlone

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I do use around 1-2g of ascorbic acid a day, began recently, and it seems useful. A while ago, before I joined this forum or had heard of Grant's theory, I remember reading your posts championing vitamin C. I bet you're pumped to see the low-A crew promoting it as well haha :p:.

I've never really had cramping though. Just a lot of bloating (or swelling/water retention?) -- which is really just a cosmetic annoyance at this point. A while back I had some hemorrhoids, they've since resolved, was never able to pinpoint an exact cause, though I think it was due to too much resistant starch and other problematic fibers.
Yes! And it explains why maybe it was so helpful for me. The high retinol and carotenoids from OJ it was just too much. I started getting more and more health problems not less.
 

Tarmander

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Hi Zpol. Glad you've joined the thread!


For the most part, simply focusing on removing retinol/carotenoids from the diet seems to work for many, and thyroid and other hormones tend to take care of themselves. I haven't been on this diet very long, and cold extremities / cold intolerance is one of the things I hope to improve. Others here, like @Orion or @Blossom , may have more to report re: thyroid function.



There is something about going low/no A that seems to to increase the robustness of one's digestion, and allows them to tolerate more starch. See @Tarmander for an example -- rice no longer gives him restless legs. (He documented this in this thread or his log, sorry don't remember which.) Grant thinks that in IBS, basically the same "dissolving" of the skin that happens in eczema is happening inside the bowels, which could explain why starches could become problematic for those with A overload.

I'm hoping this diet can help with my digestive issues as well. I get bloated from pretty much everything. I've maybe seen some modest improvement, but still too early to tell.

Many people seem to be able to tolerate apples and apple juice. Pears also.

Yeah it's funny, sleep used to be such a problem and I don't even think about it anymore. Health is not having to think about it!

I wonder if applesauce is alright. I assume the peel is apart of the sauce.
 

InChristAlone

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I am loving apple juice lately.
 
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