Experiences With Antibiotics? (Tetracycline, Doxycycline, Minocycline)

[chris]

I have been reading about antibiotics, especially the three I mentioned in the subject title and was wondering about peoples experiences?

Minocycline is 17x as expensive as Tetracycline on ADC, I was wondering why that was as well.

 

[DaveFoster]

Bump.

 

[Peater Piper]

I took two weeks of Doxycycline for acute Lyme. Gave me diarrhea within a day. Started eating fermented foods and taking a probiotic on the second day and stools returned mostly to normal. I was a wreck though from the Lyme, so I don't know if my experience is applicable for someone that isn't severely ill while taking it.

 

[michael94]

I think tetracycline can be useful but it is NOT something to take lightly. Yes it chelates iron and kills bad bacteria but it also chelates zinc/copper/etc and kills good bacteria. I think it could have use in a combination therapy with zinc/copper/electrolytes and fermented foods but as a stand alone it's very hit or miss. Internet is filled with antibiotic horror stories. Some people have good results.

 

[bobbybobbob]

Negative. Took three different courses (doxycycline, tetracycline) over the last six years for distinct inflammatory problems and they either did nothing or set the stage for even worse inflammation problems. I would lean towards the latter interpretation, though I can't say for sure. I have no idea what the mechanism was; I'm not going to say you need to cultivate a healthy gut microbiome or whatever -- I don't know. I just know for my specific problems that strongly indicated antibiotics they probably made things even worse.

 

[Rafe]

My experience with doxycycline: Over the past winter, beginning in Dec., I was having trouble with nighttime restlessness, flexing muscles like restless legs, but in my large muscles. This caused insomnia and anxiety. Bad development. Thinking it was a serotonin issue from endotoxin, I took cyproheptadine. This didn't work that well. I tried salt, calcium before bed, ice cream, juice, nothing worked for more than a night.

I had some doxy and since I thought it might be endotoxin-generated, I tried that. Within 3 days of dosing 50mg/2 X/day on a MWF schedule, the restlessness calmed down.

When the dose is effective it treats so many symptoms for me: a weird, exaggerated anxiety, depressed sensations, restless muscles, & related insomnia. When I get the dose right I just feel like a better me. Again, apologies. I haven't got a rhythm yet.

[self-quotation is a labor-saving device]

I did 2 rounds of doxy in Dec. '15. Each time I stopped the symptoms--restless muscles, insomnia, anxiety--returned. Each time I continued, the symptoms went away. So I ate the carrot everyday and improved my diet. But it was the middle of winter and I had been peaty for less than 18 mos. A lot of my food choices were still triage for stress. I was looking for solid, permanent gains around 18 mos.

By late Jan. of '16 I was taking doxycycline every day 50 mg./ 2 X/day b/c the symptoms were returning pretty quickly, and then the restlessness wasn't helped at all. Still, at 20 mos I was showing good gains: I had gained weight, but it stabilized, my outlook-moods had down-shifted to a nice, constant mellow state, I could take woods walks for an hour without stress, I felt mostly awesome, but insomnia remained a problem. I occasionally had morning anxiety that went away as the day went on. My temps remained stubbornly low except for some short periods late in the afternoon.

I stopped doxycycline in late April. I considered the higher daily dose [100mg/day total] to be getting into a risky range. I was getting more sun and the doxy made my skin too sun sensitive.

I consider my results pretty good for what I used doxycycline for, but it carries significant risks, and I didn't have any die-off symptoms. The effects seemed to wear off. I did sometimes have sulphurous poops. Like when you strike a match.

I took a road trip earlier this month and started doxy for the trip where I'd be camping [sometimes outhouses], stopping in truck stops, and remote stores a lot. Now I am in a climate too sunny to take it, but I now have some morning anxiety, and insomnia is still with me. I also took a lot of cyproheptadine and tianeptine over the winter and I'm not taking those now, they do help me with sleep. But a short summer period without supplements besides about 10 mcg T3 total/day and some aspirin is what I'm choosing to figure out my native organismic progress. I have stubborn, longstanding stress, live in a stressful winter environment, didn't change my job, and am older, so this is why I'm higher on supplements and trying a lot.

This is not a recommendation to do it this way.

TL, dr;

I took doxy for a total of about 5 winter mos, and had some good results, but they wore off after about 6 - 8 wks, which is consistent with RP's advice that supplements can be expected to cause side-effects [or I suppose not be needed] after some time.

I considered it a somewhat risky strategy. I will probably use it again next winter. I really liked its effect on lowering anxiety. But I consider part of my anxiety is just getting used to being low-adrenaline. I've had to rebuild my life without adrenaline and everyone around me now seems frenzied. I now find, after 2 yrs of peating, that food is first, and properly ripe fruit makes a big difference. I will be adding back cyproheptadine as soon as my package arrives. Have fun out there!

 

[CarbAppreciator]

I think the minocycline price has to do with patents

I have tried doxy and penicillin, doses of 25-50mg at a time. Doxy gives me good vibes, clear head etc. I only take it intermittently, and only low doses as per Peat's methods.

 

[Rafe]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_metalloproteinase

and @raypeatclips [Hi, rpclips!]

From this thread:

Tetracycline Antibiotics Are Strong Iron Chelators

Oh, well, that explains a lot: reporting back about my long-term doxycycline experiment.

Some of you may recall that I posted in this thread:

Magnesium Deficiency, A Brief Review

that I had had an episode of DT-like symptoms, at night, near Dec. 25th, that indicated massive serotonin release. I had determined then that I had given myself an electrolyte imbalance by not eating a wide-enough variety of foods while over working. Magnesium seemed to stop these symptoms almost right away and I was satisfied that this was correct.

But a couple of nights ago it happened again and, sorry to report, I think I made a mistake about the cause. [Now, not only do I feel ridiculous, but my family are pressuring me to see a doctor. The Peating life. Har.] The magnesium loss was probably partly right, but not the cause. This time when I took mag glycinate, it didn't help.

Just for full disclosure, a few days before the latest episode I tried my first coffee enema [with "enema coffee," oh my dignity, I miss you, darling] with very stimulating results, in a good way. TMI: A few days later I came down with yellow-stool diarrhea. I've had yellow stools at times for a couple of years, but I couldn't find out exactly what makes stools yellow, which leads me to believe that no one who should understand this really does. My skin hasn't turned yellow, so I didn't think it was a liver problem exactly. No pain. No pancreas pain. But maybe a lack of bile salts? But after some more reading, I'm wondering if I've pretty much cleaned out my colon of bacteria, which would otherwise make the stool not-yellow, and not diarrheal. Am I missing something here?

So, I've been taking too much doxycycline [50mg 2X/day about 5 days/wk. for about 10 wks and was about to wean off]. It's long-term use is associated with higher incidences of inflammatory bowel problems [http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-acne-bowel-idUSTRE67J3GG20100820]. But some could have many benefits, especially for older people, whose health problems are harder to turn around. Docs Rx it for teens for years at a time for acne control.

On the positive side, I didn't get a single episode of Recurrent Corneal Erosion, which I've had for about 4 winters. Very painful thing, and you wouldn't believe the number of people on RCE forums that find no relief or answer at all. I'm going to send link to an eye doc I know. I've never run into the doxycyline control of RCE before seeing the Wikipedia link above. And that's not to mention that my gallbladder never hurts anymore after peating for 2 yrs and taking doxy. I was using doxy at this dosage b/c it did away with anxiety in winter.

But I guess it's a balance if you decide to use this kind of supplement. Don't take too much doxycycline [besides the risk of c. diff getting off it], take it easy with the coffee enemas, but get relief where you can. I overdid it. On the mend now. Looking forward to paring down the supps as the days get longer.

Happy trails, Forum Friends!

 

[raypeatclips]

@Rafe Thanks for the tag. I read your post and didn't work out what you concluded the reason for your DT was? Too low iron, bowel irritation? Glad to hear you are on the mend!

 

[Rafe]

I think serotonin release was caused by bowel irritation & diarrhea from too much doxy for too long. I wonder what this means for talking about the advantages of a sterile gut.

I still think doxy can be great, just at lower doses than what I was doing. The color of everything is rosy again! Quick recovery after a miserable episode.

 

[TubZy]

How come people prefer doxy over mino? Doesn't mino have much better penetration? Same thing with tini vs metro which tini seems much more superior. I also found this.


http://www.emedexpert.com/compare-meds/ ... line.shtml

Here is an excert of what she found:

"Doxycycline treatment increased round bodies by ~275% (Figure 3B). Out of this population ~270% were alive and only ~5% were dead.

Tinidazole treatment reduced round bodies by ~94%, but in the remaining 6% of the population only ~2% were dead.

Tigecycline treatment reduced round bodies by ~96%, but in the remaining 4% of population only ~1% were dead.

Metronidazole treatment reduced round bodies by ~68%, but in the remaining 32% of the population ~15% were dead.

Amoxicillin treatment reduced round bodies by ~32%, but in the remaining 68% of the population ~30% were dead (Figure 3B)."

Also, seems like vitamin C enahances tetracycline effectiveness.

 

[tomisonbottom]

I think the minocycline price has to do with patents

I have tried doxy and penicillin, doses of 25-50mg at a time. Doxy gives me good vibes, clear head etc. I only take it intermittently, and only low doses as per Peat's methods.

What kinda of doses are low doses for you? Do you taper off of it?

 

[jitsmonkey]

I have used Doxy and Mino
I know 3 people who used Doxy DAILY at 100mg for multiple YEARS without interruption
the improvement in their health both physical and mental was marked
I have used it for months without interruption with consistent improvements in mood/pulse/temps/behavior/etc. I use it now much as robknob described above intermittently
1-2x per year.

I think the antibiotic conversation is simply "you need what you need and you don't need what you don't need"
there is no narrative that will lead you to "its right" or "its wrong" without simply running your own experiment.

Outside of thyroid supplementation nothing was or has been as powerful as Doxy

My experience with Mino was not nearly as good
I did not note improvements in mood nor pulse nor temp nor anything else
I took 200mg/day for 3 weeks.

 

[CarbAppreciator]

What kinda of doses are low doses for you? Do you taper off of it?

Somewhere around 25 mg is my lowest dose, that's only for mood enhancement, I wouldn't bother with tapering unless I was taking 100mg or more. I don't take AB very often, if i had disbiosis, I would take it steadily at low doses multiple xs a day in conjunction with charcoal, and careful food intake.

 

[tomisonbottom]

Somewhere around 25 mg is my lowest dose, that's only for mood enhancement, I wouldn't bother with tapering unless I was taking 100mg or more. I don't take AB very often, if i had disbiosis, I would take it steadily at low doses multiple xs a day in conjunction with charcoal, and careful food intake.

Interesting, thanks.

And you don't worry about the charcoal absorbing the antibiotic?

 

[johnsmith]

Any experiences with Penicillin VK? Why no mention?

 

[CarbAppreciator]

Interesting, thanks.

And you don't worry about the charcoal absorbing the antibiotic?

I do, I don't take them at the same time.

Any experiences with Penicillin VK? Why no mention?

I've used it, I feel as though it is a more powerful anti biotic and using it haphazardly risks disbiosis. Also, it does not give a feeling of well being like doxy.

 

[Peatful]

Any one had water retention and water weight gain from their tetracycline (doxy or mino)?
Fat gain?

 

[Blossom]

Any one had water retention and water weight gain from their tetracycline (doxy or mino)?
Fat gain?

I suspected that in the past although I can't prove it was the doxycycline because I had a lot of issues at the time. This post might interest you if you haven't seen it before.

I posted a study about a month ago showing that the tetracycline class of antibiotics are potent inhibitors for a large number of cancer types. The proposed mechanism of action in that study was the fact that the tetracyclines were very toxic to the tumor mitochondria.
This study found that the tetracyclines inhibit mitochondrial respiration in normal cells too. I wonder what would Ray say about that and what the impact is for people using those antibiotics on a regular basis for gut issues.
Perhaps more interestingly (and in support of Peat's endorsement of the tetracyclines), despite the decrease in mitochondrial respiration organisms treated with a tetracycline antibiotic were more agile as they aged - i.e. they did not exhibit decline in physical/mental fitness with age.
So, what's going on here - tetracyclines cause lower respiration/metabolism but improved fitness??

http://www.the-scientist.com//?articles ... ochondria/

"... Two years ago, study coauthor Johan Auwerx, an energy metabolism researcher at the École Polytechnique Fédérale in Lausanne, Switzerland, and his colleagues observed that the tetracycline class of antibiotics, which target mitochondrial translation, led to an imbalance between mitochondrial and nuclear protein translation in both worms and mammalian cell lines. Expanding on this observation, the researchers have now shown that even low concentrations of tetracyclines can inhibit mitochondrial function and lead to changes in both mitochondrial and nuclear protein expression. Across four commonly used human cell lines, as little as 1 microgram of the drug per milliliter resulted in a decrease in cellular respiration, signaling impaired mitochondrial activity. Treatment with amoxicillin, an antibiotic that does not target protein synthesis in the mitochondria, did not lead to these effects. Further, genome-wide expression data showed global repression of mitochondrial protein synthesis in the presence of the tetracycline doxycycline.
In C. elegans and D. melanogaster, doxycycline exposure during development resulted in developmental delays as well as decreased oxygen consumption when the animals reached adulthood. However, both the doxycycline-treated worms and the fruit flies were more agile throughout their lives compared to those not exposed to the antibiotic, Auwerx and his colleagues found. This observation was consistent with the authors’ previous findings that blocking mitochondrial translation can partly prevent a decline in physical fitness with age."

 

[Peatful]

@Blossom
Thx-
I had not read that Haidut post.