Tetracyclines Cause Mitochondrial Dysfunction

yerrag

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Check out this paper. Scroll down to lumbrokinase(page 4) unless you want to know a lot about earth worms. I am researching a podcast on it.

Lumbro, unlike the other systemic enzymes, seems to stabilize the fibrogen system. So it avoids some of the side effects of the other enzymes. Also has possible anti bacteria/anti biofilm effects
Thanks again!

The article mentions the TCM supplement called Di Long, which comes from earthworms, and once again, I'm getting a hit at Activeherbs :

Di Long (Earthworm, 地龙)

I'm just not sure whether this is the same enzyme as lumbrokinase though. I'm avoiding buying anything from Amazon, since their automation in order fulfillment tends to make their packaging too large, and I incur additional charges when the package is forwarded to Manila. Amazon has Lumbrokinase though. I should ask Activeherbs to see if the product was made under conditions that don't degrade the product through high heat exposure, which destroys enzymes.

Di Long (extract) - Wikipedia
Globinmed - Di Long

https://www.nutricology.com/infocus/pdfletters/InFocus_2009Mar_Earthworms.pdf
 
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yerrag

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yeah I am trying both that brand and doctor's best to see which is best
I can't wrap my head around this statement from the article: "This enzyme can only demonstrate thrombolytic activity in the presence of fibrin; therefore, LK has the advantage of not causing hemorrhage owing to hyperfibrinolysis during treatment." I understand the inability to prevent hyperfibrinolysis to be a weakness of nattokinase, but can that be said of other proteases such as serrapeptidase or bromelain/papain? I mean, I still can't fully appreiate what makes it special.

Could you help me understand this?
 

yerrag

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yeah I am trying both that brand and doctor's best to see which is best
Doctor's Best is a quarter of the price of Boluoke. I can see why you'd want to try them both. Have you had any initial impressions?

It's interesting that Dr's Best has regularly priced itself at a much lower price. It was the same with its ascorbic acid, where it sells much lower than the GMO-Free brand, and both claim to be sources from the same company that manufactures the Quali-C ascorbic acid in Scotland. I've tried them both, and it's hard to really make a conclusive observation as to the efficacy of each one and this makes it hard to compare. But the only superiority of GMO-Free that I can be certain that it is finer than that of Dr's Best (but Dr's Best best doesn't claim to be ultrafine, which GMO-Free does).

Dr. Best either provides good value or simply knows how to game our inability to determine the relative efficacy of two brands that have huge differences in quality.
 
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Tarmander

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Doctor's Best is a quarter of the price of Boluoke. I can see why you'd want to try them both. Have you had any initial impressions?

It's interesting that Dr's Best has regularly priced itself at a much lower price. It was the same with its ascorbic acid, where it sells much lower than the GMO-Free brand, and both claim to be sources from the same company that manufactures the Quali-C ascorbic acid in Scotland. I've tried them both, and it's hard to really make a conclusive observation as to the efficacy of each one and this makes it hard to compare. But the only superiority of GMO-Free that I can be certain that it is finer than that of Dr's Best (but Dr's Best best doesn't claim to be ultrafine, which GMO-Free does).

Dr. Best either provides good value or simply knows how to game our inability to determine the relative efficacy of two brands that have huge differences in quality.
I have been taking the Dr. Best and it works well I am assuming. Just got the boluke today and giving it a go. Unless it blows my socks off I am sticking with Dr. Best

I can't wrap my head around this statement from the article: "This enzyme can only demonstrate thrombolytic activity in the presence of fibrin; therefore, LK has the advantage of not causing hemorrhage owing to hyperfibrinolysis during treatment." I understand the inability to prevent hyperfibrinolysis to be a weakness of nattokinase, but can that be said of other proteases such as serrapeptidase or bromelain/papain? I mean, I still can't fully appreiate what makes it special.

Could you help me understand this?
Not sure tbh. Several papers talk about LK's ability to balance fibrinogen processes unlike the other systemic enzymes. Maybe you can track down why that is
 

yerrag

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I have been taking the Dr. Best and it works well I am assuming. Just got the boluke today and giving it a go. Unless it blows my socks off I am sticking with Dr. Best


Not sure tbh. Several papers talk about LK's ability to balance fibrinogen processes unlike the other systemic enzymes. Maybe you can track down why that is

It's hard to pass up the good deal with Dr. Best. Pls. let me know if Boluoke blows your socks off. I'll be ordering this in a day or two.

It's rather frustrating reading through the articles when most of them don't differentiate thrombolysis from fibrinolysis, using one for the other. Since I don't have a lot of time to be exhaustive, I came upon this : Thrombolytic/Fibrinolytic Mechanism of Natural Products | IntechOpen :

The main elements of thrombus include fibrin, thrombin, and platelets [17]. Current techniques to dissolve clot focus on the fibrin and prothrombin activation, fail to address the important effects of platelets; thrombolysis may dissolve the fibrin component of the clot but may have no effect on the platelet portion [18]. Fibrinolytic therapy has a potent platelet aggregating effect as does the exposure of the ruptured atherosclerotic plaque [19]...

...However, larger thrombi have notoriously proven to be resistant to intravenous tPA lysis with recanalization rates in the range of only 13% to 20% [23]. Even if endovascular treatment of ischemic stroke is proven to improve clinical outcomes, there will still be many patients with residual partial or complete occlusion after intravenous tPA alone suffering ischemia, whereas waiting for catheter rescue [24]. Thrombolysis resistance has also been demonstrated in platelet-rich thrombi, as seen in postmortem microscopic examination of serial sections of coronary thrombus of patients with acute myocardial infarction and sudden death revealing that thrombus formed at the plaque fissure is very rich in platelets, whereas proximal and distal extensions of the thrombus are composed of erythrocyte-rich material [25].

I gather that for a substance to be really thrombolytic, it not only should be fibrinolytic, must also be able to to dissolve thrombin, and platelets.

Sorry that we're using this thread for this discussion, maybe the later posts here can be moved to another thread.
 

Tarmander

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It's hard to pass up the good deal with Dr. Best. Pls. let me know if Boluoke blows your socks off. I'll be ordering this in a day or two.

It's rather frustrating reading through the articles when most of them don't differentiate thrombolysis from fibrinolysis, using one for the other. Since I don't have a lot of time to be exhaustive, I came upon this : Thrombolytic/Fibrinolytic Mechanism of Natural Products | IntechOpen :

The main elements of thrombus include fibrin, thrombin, and platelets [17]. Current techniques to dissolve clot focus on the fibrin and prothrombin activation, fail to address the important effects of platelets; thrombolysis may dissolve the fibrin component of the clot but may have no effect on the platelet portion [18]. Fibrinolytic therapy has a potent platelet aggregating effect as does the exposure of the ruptured atherosclerotic plaque [19]...

...However, larger thrombi have notoriously proven to be resistant to intravenous tPA lysis with recanalization rates in the range of only 13% to 20% [23]. Even if endovascular treatment of ischemic stroke is proven to improve clinical outcomes, there will still be many patients with residual partial or complete occlusion after intravenous tPA alone suffering ischemia, whereas waiting for catheter rescue [24]. Thrombolysis resistance has also been demonstrated in platelet-rich thrombi, as seen in postmortem microscopic examination of serial sections of coronary thrombus of patients with acute myocardial infarction and sudden death revealing that thrombus formed at the plaque fissure is very rich in platelets, whereas proximal and distal extensions of the thrombus are composed of erythrocyte-rich material [25].

I gather that for a substance to be really thrombolytic, it not only should be fibrinolytic, must also be able to to dissolve thrombin, and platelets.

Sorry that we're using this thread for this discussion, maybe the later posts here can be moved to another thread.
Did not really blow my socks off. Definitely seems a little better. Blood sugars are even more stable and I think I had some mental benefits...felt calmer all day yesterday. Not really sure if it's worth the price. I am going to switch back and forth and see what I think. Doctors best seems passable
 

yerrag

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The article mentions the TCM supplement called Di Long, which comes from earthworms, and once again, I'm getting a hit at Activeherbs :

Di Long (Earthworm, 地龙)

I'm just not sure whether this is the same enzyme as lumbrokinase though. I'm avoiding buying anything from Amazon, since their automation in order fulfillment tends to make their packaging too large, and I incur additional charges when the package is forwarded to Manila. Amazon has Lumbrokinase though. I should ask Activeherbs to see if the product was made under conditions that don't degrade the product through high heat exposure, which destroys enzymes.

Activeherbs replied to my email query and told me that Di Long doesn't have lumbrokinase, as the processing involved in making Di Long would expose it to heat and would destroy the enzyme.

But, "The heat-stable, purified enzymes were first isolated in 1992 by Japanese researchers." https://www.nutricology.com/infocus/pdfletters/InFocus_2009Mar_Earthworms.pdf#page=3 @Amazoniac !

So, I'm now wondering whether the Di Long contains the lumbrokinase enzymes.
 
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yerrag

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Also has possible anti bacteria/anti biofilm effects
https://www.nutricology.com/infocus/pdfletters/InFocus_2009Mar_Earthworms.pdf#page=5 :

Lumbricin I is an antimicrobial peptide that has been isolated from Lumbricus rubellus. It exhibits antimicrobial activity against both Gram negative and Gram positive bacteria as well as fungi, yet without hemolytic activity against human blood cells. Lumbricin I is rich in proline and actually shares characteristics with peptides found in insects and fruit flies.

https://media.neliti.com/media/publications/174490-EN-none.pdf :

Lumbricus rubellus is the ubiquitous earthworm containing antimicrobial peptide named Lumbricin-1. The aim of this study was to determine the broad spectrum antimicrobial activity of Lumbricus rubellus powder against several drug resistant microbes such as Multidrug Resistant (MDR) Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) and Fluconazole resistant Candida albicans...

...Statistical analysis revealed that Lumbricus rubellus powder in the tested concentrations showed significant broad spectrum antimicrobial activity against drug resistant microbes (p<0.05).

Antibacterial Activity of Lumbricus Rubellus Earthworm Extract Against Porphyromonas Gingivalis as the Bacterial Cause of Periodontitis :

The purpose of this study was to determine the antibacterial activity of Lumbricus rubellus earthworms through inhibitory zone diameter to the growth of the bacterium Phorphyromonas gingivalis as the cause of periodontitis...

...The mean diameter of the inhibitory zone extract of Lumbricus rubellus earthworm on the growth of Phorphyromonas gingivalis bacteria in the treatment group had significant differences (p < 0.05). The mean inhibition zones between controls and the ECT treatment group (ECT 50%, ECT 25%, ECT 12.5%) were statistically different (p < 0.05), in contrast with ECT 6.25% (p > 0.05) which did not show significant difference with the control group (p > 0.05)...

...Lumbricus rubellus earthworm extract with a concentration of 50% has the largest diameter of the inhibitory zone on the growth of the Phorphyromonas gingivalis bacteria. The 6.25% earthworm extract showed no antibacterial activity against the growth of Phorphyromonas gingivalis bacteria.
 

Tarmander

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https://www.nutricology.com/infocus/pdfletters/InFocus_2009Mar_Earthworms.pdf#page=5 :

Lumbricin I is an antimicrobial peptide that has been isolated from Lumbricus rubellus. It exhibits antimicrobial activity against both Gram negative and Gram positive bacteria as well as fungi, yet without hemolytic activity against human blood cells. Lumbricin I is rich in proline and actually shares characteristics with peptides found in insects and fruit flies.

https://media.neliti.com/media/publications/174490-EN-none.pdf :

Lumbricus rubellus is the ubiquitous earthworm containing antimicrobial peptide named Lumbricin-1. The aim of this study was to determine the broad spectrum antimicrobial activity of Lumbricus rubellus powder against several drug resistant microbes such as Multidrug Resistant (MDR) Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) and Fluconazole resistant Candida albicans...

...Statistical analysis revealed that Lumbricus rubellus powder in the tested concentrations showed significant broad spectrum antimicrobial activity against drug resistant microbes (p<0.05).

Antibacterial Activity of Lumbricus Rubellus Earthworm Extract Against Porphyromonas Gingivalis as the Bacterial Cause of Periodontitis :

The purpose of this study was to determine the antibacterial activity of Lumbricus rubellus earthworms through inhibitory zone diameter to the growth of the bacterium Phorphyromonas gingivalis as the cause of periodontitis...

...The mean diameter of the inhibitory zone extract of Lumbricus rubellus earthworm on the growth of Phorphyromonas gingivalis bacteria in the treatment group had significant differences (p < 0.05). The mean inhibition zones between controls and the ECT treatment group (ECT 50%, ECT 25%, ECT 12.5%) were statistically different (p < 0.05), in contrast with ECT 6.25% (p > 0.05) which did not show significant difference with the control group (p > 0.05)...

...Lumbricus rubellus earthworm extract with a concentration of 50% has the largest diameter of the inhibitory zone on the growth of the Phorphyromonas gingivalis bacteria. The 6.25% earthworm extract showed no antibacterial activity against the growth of Phorphyromonas gingivalis bacteria.
Gingivitis! Exactly what you are looking for.

I think the Boluke I got may be counterfeit...that or it just doesn’t do much. Blood sugars were not great yesterday and I wasn’t sure exactly why.

At night I thought maybe I should try the doc best again and about 20 minutes after I took 2 pills I felt it. Mind got clearer, blood sugars flattened out.

so not sure if boluke just sucks or I got a bad bottle.

I knew about di long. I ordered an ounce of powdered earthworm, should be here in a few days.
 

yerrag

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Gingivitis! Exactly what you are looking for.

I think the Boluke I got may be counterfeit...that or it just doesn’t do much. Blood sugars were not great yesterday and I wasn’t sure exactly why.

At night I thought maybe I should try the doc best again and about 20 minutes after I took 2 pills I felt it. Mind got clearer, blood sugars flattened out.

so not sure if boluke just sucks or I got a bad bottle.

I knew about di long. I ordered an ounce of powdered earthworm, should be here in a few days.
Yeah, the lumbricin-1 antimicrobial peptide found in lumbricus rubellus should be in the TCM drug Di Long. I'll order this one. I read it has a foul taste though, that it can cause one to vomit. It's recommended to mix with yoghurt, but i don't know. At worst, I'll come to put it in a capsule.

As for why blood sugars weren't great for you, is it because it's doing a good lysing plaque? And in doing so, some bacteria is being released to the blood and that the bacteria is somehow causing an effect on blood sugar regulation? I had good blood sugar control. My fasting blood sugar was normally 85. It became 110 when I took, for just one day, 3 capsules of serrapeptidase with 120,000 IU each, for a total of 360,000 IU . I don't remember why I discontinued it, and I'm glad I did; The next blood test- 4 days later - my wbc and neutrophils shot up. I realized then I had unleashed a lot of bacteria into my blood from the plaque being lysed. Over the next few weeks, I began to feel hunger, and I sensed my blood sugar regulation system had somehow been impaired. I gained 20 lbs in the next few months.

I'm blaming it on the p.gingivalis bacteria which produces enzymes that would break up incretins, which modulate the production of insulin. With dysregulation in the production of insulin. As insulin is like a traffic cop which regulates many metabolic activities, not only in sugar metabolism and fat metabolism, such as lipolysis, glucuneogensis, glycogenolysis, proteolysis - the metabolic balance would be impaired .

I don't think it's the boluoke not working that's causing you to feel a blood sugar disturbance, it may be that it's doing its job, but that it's exposing some underlying issues in your blood vessels. It could be harboring dormant bacteria which are being released through the lysing action of the expensive boluoke enzyme, which the cheaper brand wasn't doing.

Have you received the di long powder and if you've used it, what are your impressions?

n.b. Just this Monday, I had an ECG. I just wanted to test my thyroid, as the prinout shows my QTc. A QTc below 440msec gives me a passing grade, that I'm not hypothyroid. And I'm glad I wasn't (since my temps had dropped, hence the test). But I had a surprise coming. Turns out I had " an old inferior wall myocardial infarction." That meant I had a heart attack, though a mild one since I'm still around. I suspect though that the near-miss embolism was the result of me taking 3 capsules of serrapeptidase (360,000 IU) and it could be that the strong fibrinolytic effect without the thrombolytic effect got the embolism going. I'm just glad I stopped altogether taking the enzyme after one day of use. I must have lucked out or I still have my guardian angel watching over me. Anyway, this makes lumbrokinase really special.
 
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Tarmander

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Yeah, the lumbricin-1 antimicrobial peptide found in lumbricus rubellus should be in the TCM drug Di Long. I'll order this one. I read it has a foul taste though, that it can cause one to vomit. It's recommended to mix with yoghurt, but i don't know. At worst, I'll come to put it in a capsule.

As for why blood sugars weren't great for you, is it because it's doing a good lysing plaque? And in doing so, some bacteria is being released to the blood and that the bacteria is somehow causing an effect on blood sugar regulation? I had good blood sugar control. My fasting blood sugar was normally 85. It became 110 when I took, for just one day, 3 capsules of serrapeptidase with 120,000 IU each, for a total of 360,000 IU . I don't remember why I discontinued it, and I'm glad I did; The next blood test- 4 days later - my wbc and neutrophils shot up. I realized then I had unleashed a lot of bacteria into my blood from the plaque being lysed. Over the next few weeks, I began to feel hunger, and I sensed my blood sugar regulation system had somehow been impaired. I gained 20 lbs in the next few months.

I'm blaming it on the p.gingivalis bacteria which produces enzymes that would break up incretins, which modulate the production of insulin. With dysregulation in the production of insulin. As insulin is like a traffic cop which regulates many metabolic activities, not only in sugar metabolism and fat metabolism, such as lipolysis, glucuneogensis, glycogenolysis, proteolysis - the metabolic balance would be impaired .

I don't think it's the boluoke not working that's causing you to feel a blood sugar disturbance, it may be that it's doing its job, but that it's exposing some underlying issues in your blood vessels. It could be harboring dormant bacteria which are being released through the lysing action of the expensive boluoke enzyme, which the cheaper brand wasn't doing.

Have you received the di long powder and if you've used it, what are your impressions?

n.b. Just this Monday, I had an ECG. I just wanted to test my thyroid, as the prinout shows my QTc. A QTc below 440msec gives me a passing grade, that I'm not hypothyroid. And I'm glad I wasn't (since my temps had dropped, hence the test). But I had a surprise coming. Turns out I had " an old inferior wall myocardial infarction." That meant I had a heart attack, though a mild one since I'm still around. I suspect though that the near-miss embolism was the result of me taking 3 capsules of serrapeptidase (360,000 IU) and it could be that the strong fibrinolytic effect without the thrombolytic effect got the embolism going. I'm just glad I stopped altogether taking the enzyme after one day of use. I must have lucked out or I still have my guardian angel watching over me. Anyway, this makes lumbrokinase really special.

I am pretty sure the boluke did nothing. The doctor's best stabilizes blood sugar fantastically, clears my mind, makes my limbs fall asleep less. It is awesome. The two days I took boluke those just faded slowly away. I can generally tell when something disturbs blood sugar and this did not disturb blood sugar, it was just not having the doctors best brand working.

I am going to encapsulate di long, just got it yesterday
 

yerrag

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am pretty sure the boluke did nothing. The doctor's best stabilizes blood sugar fantastically, clears my mind, makes my limbs fall asleep less. It is awesome. The two days I took boluke those just faded slowly away. I can generally tell when something disturbs blood sugar and this did not disturb blood sugar, it was just not having the doctors best brand working.
It was really hard to get any guidance from the reviews of the different brands of lumbrokinase being sold in Amazon.

I should have ordered both brands. I ordered Boluoke only, and I hope it does better on me.

I also ordered a 100g bottle of Di Long from Activeherb. Judging from my good experience with its berberine extract Hua Liang, I expect it to be good as well. Hopefully, it will have the Lumbricin-1 peptide in it.
 

yerrag

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It was really hard to get any guidance from the reviews of the different brands of lumbrokinase being sold in Amazon.

I should have ordered both brands. I ordered Boluoke only, and I hope it does better on me.

I also ordered a 100g bottle of Di Long from Activeherb. Judging from my good experience with its berberine extract Hua Liang, I expect it to be good as well. Hopefully, it will have the Lumbricin-1 peptide in it.
I cancelled my order and will place a revised order. Didn't know I could cancel even after the item shipped - as long as it's not too late. And it wasn't. Nice! A plus for ordering from Amazon.

At best, I get to save with a cheaper product. At worst, I may need a toned-down product that throttles the release of bacteria from my blood vessel wall plaques. We'll see! Thanks for the feedback @Tarmander!
 

Tarmander

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I cancelled my order and will place a revised order. Didn't know I could cancel even after the item shipped - as long as it's not too late. And it wasn't. Nice! A plus for ordering from Amazon.

At best, I get to save with a cheaper product. At worst, I may need a toned-down product that throttles the release of bacteria from my blood vessel wall plaques. We'll see! Thanks for the feedback @Tarmander!
very nice! Glad you saved some money

I am guessing it will not have the same lysing reaction as serra. Let me know
 

yerrag

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very nice! Glad you saved some money

I am guessing it will not have the same lysing reaction as serra. Let me know
Yeah, it would be a shame if all the research culminated in me buying an expensive but fake product. I read the reviews, and there's comment about it being fake. I didn't give much credence to it, but it still left a lasting impression on me. My fears would be allayed had the seller been the manufacturer, but it's a seller named 'boluoke." So, maybe your suspicion is spot on.
 

yerrag

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@Tarmander please let me know how the di long tastes. Should I buy a capsule machine? Thanks again!
 

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