Excess Magnesium Chloride Intake Causes Frank Acidosis

[burtlancast]

Dietary sodium chloride intake independently predicts the degree of hyperchloremic metabolic acidosis in healthy humans consuming a net acid-producing diet

Compensation occurs and the imbalance is corrected fast, but this comes with a cost. Note that it would be worse if it was magnesium instead of sodium. It isn't a big deal if the person is healthy, but if there are better forms available, it makes no sense to insist on using it.

So, you cannot demonstrate acidosis from 1-4 gr of magnesium chloride ingested daily, except from a compensated one, and without any order of magnitude.

I believe base-forming foods like fruits and vegetables, or even supplements like potassium citrate/bicarbonate can diminish this aspect if needed.

 

[Amazoniac]

i'm not a scientist, but epsom salt baths, that's magnesium sulphate right ? Is that bad ? I do weekly. It really helps to relax, more than a normal bath so it does something ? How could one safely up magnesium ? besides the obvious working on the issue of hypothyrodism?

Magnesium sulfate baths are fine, the problem is doing them often.
Through foods. But if you need supplements, having the mindset of adding the least amount required for you to feel best. It's better to spread the doses to maximize absorption, 100 mg at a time is reasonable. If you need too much to feel great, it's worth investigating if there isn't an issue elsewhere.

What do you think about the malate form of magnesium? The pure powder seems really good to me when dosed throughout the Day. Good for the liver too. Have you come across This form mentioned when Reading about the various forms?

I have the impression that the absorption is not as good as the others but I like it, there's a thread on it on the foro. I would still favor magnesium glycinate but especially hydroxide for being versatile, you can react it with different acids and this helps you in getting more magnesium without having to deal with a single ligand. Sometimes I suspect that the concern that Raj has with the industrial production of ascorbic acid applies to various different acids as well.

So, you cannot demonstrate acidosis from 1-4 gr of magnesium chloride ingested daily, except from a compensated one, and without any order of magnitude.

I believe base-forming foods like fruits and vegetables, or even supplements like potassium citrate/bicarbonate can diminish this aspect if needed.

I told you, there was no plateau. Do you think that it jumps from not having an effect to acidifying debilitated people to death? There are grades of it, and the more robust you are, the less will feel the impact, but it's there and it's unnecessary. The solution is not to pile up stuff to correct something that could've been avoided.

 

[Amazoniac]

Relative Acidifying Activity of Anionic Salts Commonly Used to Prevent Milk Fever

Here they used the chloride content of 101 g of magnesium chloride hexahydrate (35% is chloride: 35 g) as reference (as their 1 Eq). The lowest dose in experiment 2 (that included magnesium chloride) was 75% of 35 g: 27 g of chloride.

A simple practice guide for dose conversion between animals and human
"The correction factor (Km) is estimated by dividing the average body weight (kg) of species to its body surface area (m²). For example, the average human body weight is 60 kg, and the body surface area is 1.62 m². Therefore, the Km factor for human is calculated by dividing 60 by 1.62, which is 37 [Table 1]."

Average body weight of a cow: 450 kg
Body surface area of a cow: 4.25 m²

- Km cow = 105
- Km humanoid = 37
- Km ratio: 2.8

- 27000 mg (27 g)/450 kg = 60 mg/kg

Therefore the humanoid equivalent dose would be: 60 mg/kg * 2.8 = 168 mg/kg.
168 mg/kg * 60 kg human = 10 g of chloride.

So the amount used here was close to the first experiment: 28 g of magnesium chloride hexahydrate.​

These cows were in an alkalotic state, so keep in mind that they already had some resistance to the effects of acidifying salts, contrary to what happened with the kids from the previous link posted: they were prone like many people are.

"Blood SBE [standard base excess], provided plasma protein does not vary, provides an accurate estimate of the acid-base status that is essentially not affected by blood partial pressure of carbon dioxide, i.e., it is a good measure of the nonrespiratory, or metabolic, component of an acid-base disturbance (Constable, 1999). Blood pH, while theoretically less able to discern the effects of diet on metabolic alkalosis and acidosis, is more commonly measured. Urine pH is easily measured and has proven useful in the field to adjust dietary cation-anion difference (DCAD). However, it does not always accurately assess the degree of acidosis induced by chloride or sulfate addition to the diet. For routine monitoring of the dry cow, the ease with which urine pH can be measured more than makes up for its inaccuracy."

"Urine pH of cows fed diet with only water added was 7.84 ± 0.09. There was no significant urine acidifying effect of 0.75 Eq of either MgCl2 or MgSO4 when compared to water alone. Higher doses of either magnesium salt caused significant decreases in urine pH (Table 6). Urine pH during treatment with 2.25 Eq of MgCl2 was lower than urine pH during treatment with 2.25 Eq of MgSO4 (P < 0.10). All 3 doses of MgCl2 were able to cause a decrease in urine pH from that observed during water treatment (7.44 ± 0.01) (Table 7). Only the 1.5 and 2.25 Eq doses of MgSO4 were able to significantly decrease blood pH from that observed during water treatment. The blood pH during treatment with 1.5 and 2.25 Eq doses of MgCl2 was significantly lower than the blood pH during treatment with equivalent doses of MgSO4. All 3 doses of MgCl2 were able to significantly reduce blood SBE from that of water alone (6.00 ± 1.05 mEq/L). Only the 1.5 Eq dose of MgSO4 caused a significant change in blood pH from that observed during water treatment (Table 8). Blood SBE during treatment with 2.25 Eq of MgCl2 was significantly lower than blood SBE during treatment with 2.25 Eq of MgSO4."

"[..]dietary sulfate anions are less potent acidifiers of the blood than are dietary chloride anions. In experiment 1, treating with the 2-Eq dose of each chloride source reduced urine pH, blood pH more than the 2-Eq dose of the sulfate source."

"These results were similar to the effects observed in experiment 2 at the 2.25-Eq doses of the various chloride and sulfate sources. However, at the lower anion doses utilized in experiment 2, the differences between the chloride and sulfate sources on measures of acid-base physiology were small to imperceptible (Figure 2). We speculate that there is some blockade of sulfate absorption at higher doses, while chloride absorption continues unabated. Another possibility is that sulfate is cleared from the blood faster than chloride, especially at higher blood levels. If absorbed sulfate is quickly excreted into the urine or bile, it might not exert as great an effect on blood pH, while continuing to add to the anion content of the urine and therefore decreasing urine pH."

"The results of this study, demonstrating a difference in acid-base effects between dietary chloride and sulfate, are not unique. Oetzel et al. (1991) screened a number of anionic salts for effects on urine pH and close examination of their data also demonstrates that the sulfate salts are less able to cause urinary acidification than are chloride salts."

"[..]MgSO4 is a much weaker acidifying agent than MgCl2."

"[It seems that] sulfate is between 55 and 60% as effective as chloride at changing blood pH and SBE (Figure 3), confirming the work of Tucker et al. (1991)."

"In some cases, the DCAD [dietary cation-anion difference] equations have been interpreted to suggest that elemental sulfur is equivalent to the sulfate anion. Results of experiment 1 demonstrate this interpretation is clearly wrong, as elemental sulfur is not capable of acidifying the urine."

"Sulfur and sulfate are potentially toxic because they can be reduced to hydrogen sulfide in the rumen, a potent neurotoxin (Gould et al., 1991). Therefore the amount of sulfate added to the diet must be limited."

Magnesium sulfate is better for external use, ingested in very-low doses or high doses intended to be laxative, not the middle term.​

"[..]low doses of sulfate coming from CaSO4 and H2SO4 appear to be equipotent to low doses of chloride sources[.]"

"The key to reduction of hypocalcemia is to then add chloride to the ration to counteract the effects of even low levels of potassium on blood alkalinity."

"[..]the addition of chloride to prepartal diets would prove more effective than sulfate because sulfate has about 60% of the blood acidifying activity of chloride. This is especially apparent at the higher doses of anion required to successfully overcome the metabolic alkalosis observed in the prepartum cow on a typical ration."

"MgSO4 was much less acidifying than MgCl2 at all doses tested. It appears that there is some blockade to sulfate absorption or acidifying action at higher doses. Though MgSO4 is commonly used as an anion to prevent milk fever, these data discourage the use of MgSO4 as an acidifying agent, though it may still prove a good source of magnesium."

"The intestinal absorption of accompanying cations such as calcium, magnesium, and ammonium in an anionic salt can counteract the acidifying effect of the absorbed chloride or sulfate anion of that salt and, although these cations are not considered in the common DCAD equations, they may need to be considered when formulating dry cow rations."

These salts are far from being enough to make up for the acidifying effect of chloride, they only mentioned this so that gurus don't neglect to consider the pairing mineral, just like people do with chloride.​

"It is tempting, but wrong, to express DCAD as ([Na+] + [K+] + [Ca++] + [Mg++]) − ([Cl–] + 0.6 [S––] + [P–––]) because this equation assumes that Ca and Mg are as strongly alkalinizing as Na and K and that P is as strongly acidifying as Cl. A discount must be applied to these other dietary cations and anions to adjust for their lower absorption (or perhaps retention) and acidifying activity."

"DCAD equation coefficients for calcium and magnesium must be less than 0.6."

"[..]the only real variables in the equation become Na, K, and Cl."

..reinforcing that chloride should be paired with potassium/sodium, and not magnesium.​

burtlan, if what has been posted wasn't enough to convince you, it's going to be difficult because you're not willing to deduce, you want to read an official statement that it occurs. However this is unlikely to happen for the same reason that you can ingest a few mcgs of cadmium and pass unnoticed. As a coincidence both can tax the kidneys and needless to say that I'm equating them because they're on the same level of harm.

 

[Amazoniac]

In brief: if someone is going to supplement chronic high amounts of this magnesium salt, I would considering adding sodium bicarbonate (regardless if you decide to react it with burtic, lancastic, yerragic acids or not) in a ratio of no less than sodium bicarbonate 3:4 magnesium chloride hexahydrate. It's probable that a higher ratio is beneficial given the better outcomes when replacement solutions of this kind are used in people with compromised kidneys (susceptible to imbalances).

Spoiler: Expand for details

- Association Between a Chloride-Liberal vs Chloride-Restrictive Intravenous Fluid Administration Strategy and Kidney Injury in Critically Ill Adults

"The administration of intravenous chloride is ubiquitous in critical care medicine.[1,2] In addition, many of the fluids used for hydration and resuscitation contain supraphysiological concentrations of chloride,[3-5] which induce or exacerbate hyperchloremia and metabolic acidosis,[6,7] may cause renal vasoconstriction and decreased glomerular filtration rate (GFR),[8-10] prolong time to first micturition,[11] and decrease urine output in major surgery.[12] Recently, in a double-blind randomized controlled trial, 2 L of saline decreased cortical perfusion in human study participants compared with Plasma-Lyte.[13] These effects of chloride on the kidney are of potential concern because acute kidney injury (AKI) is associated with high mortality[14] and may require treatment with costly and invasive renal replacement therapy (RRT).[15,16]"

"Given the high risk of AKI in critically ill patients and the experimental association between chloride administration and decreased renal function, we hypothesized that a chloride-restrictive intravenous fluids strategy in critically ill patients might be associated with a decreased incidence and severity of AKI compared with a chloride-liberal intravenous strategy."

"We found that a chloride-restrictive intravenous fluid strategy was associated with a significant reduction in the increase of mean creatinine level from baseline to peak ICU [intensive care unit] level. In addition, we found that such a strategy was associated with a significant decrease in the incidence of AKI [acute kidney injury] and the use of RRT [renal replacement therapy]."

"To our knowledge, no studies have assessed the renal effects of a chloride-restrictive intravenous fluid strategy applied to critically ill patients over days to weeks of ICU stay. However, our findings are in keeping with earlier observations in animal and humanstudies that suggest that solutions with supraphysiological concentrations of chloride may have detrimental renal effects.[9-12] Our findings suggest that the shorter time to micturition,[11] greater urine output,[12] and better renal cortical perfusion[13] seen in previous controlled human studies may reflect clinically significant renal effects of chloride-containing intravenous fluids rather than minor fluctuation in osmolar control.[21] This notion is further supported by recent observational evidence in more than 30,000 surgical patients that saline therapy increases the risk of patients requiring acute dialysis compared with Plasma-Lyte administration.[22]"​

Note that the lowest ratio of sodium to chloride in table 2 is found in 0.9% saline solution, and it still provides 40% as sodium and 60% as chloride. So all those therapeutic fluids have more sodium than chloride.

For those who plan to use it often and in large amounts, it's useful to have an idea of how much sodium is required to adjust for the imbalance.

It's relevant to consider sea salt (as the main dietary source of sodium chloride) to get a notion instead of relying only on the proportion in circulating fluid (in spite of both minerals being prevalent mostly outside the cell).

All values are rounded..

The following varies depending on the seawasser, but actual 'sodium chloride' in sea salt is about 80%, the rest of sodium and chloride is provided by different salts (one being magnesium chloride). So the final amount isn't 40% and 60%, but more like 35% and 65%, reinforced here or just search for images on 'sea salt composition'.

*For convenience, since it was posted elsewhere before:

- About 30% of sodium bicarbonate is sodium.
- About 35% of magnesium chloride hexahydrate is chloride.​

For reference, one heaped teaspoon of either contains about 5 g.

- Supplementing them in equal amounts gives you 45% as sodium and 55% as chloride, which is desirable considering based on the first comment below the article.
- As you can tell by the proportion above*, using them in a 1:2 weight ratio gives you 30% of sodium and 70% (2*35%) of chloride, which in turn is still low to keep a balance.
- And finally a middle term between these is a ratio of 3:4, which gives you 40% of sodium and 60% of chloride.

Or use this to find the desired amount:

[30*gsb] / [(0,3*gsb)+(0,35*gmc)] = % sodium
gsb: grams of sodium bicarbonate
gmc: grams of magnesium chloride hexahydrate​

Let me know if there are mistakes in calculations.


But as always, it's not just the ratio, the amounts also matter. When they're larger, attention to all of alkaline minerals also become important:

- Saline (medicine) - Wikipedia

"It is most commonly used as a sterile 9 g of salt per litre (0.9%) solution, known as normal saline.[1]" "Large amounts may result in fluid overload, swelling, acidosis, and high blood sodium.[1][2]"

"Coconut water has been used in place of normal saline in areas without access to normal saline.[31]"​

 

[Glassy]

That’s an interesting and practical approach Amazoniac - thank you.

 

[burtlancast]

OK...can you provide a little direction or link?

Here's a very recent confirmation of the benefits of acidosis in cancer by Peat himself ( from an email exchange with member Rah):

Internal acidification of cells is necessary for apoptosis, and tumors grow because their apoptosis is prevented by the internal alkalinity caused by glycolysis. Baking soda, some antihistamines, and acetazolamide (Diamox) can restore normal intracellular acidity.

 

[Amazoniac]

Here's a very recent confirmation of the benefits of acidosis in cancer by Peat himself ( from an email exchange with member Rah):

When the interior is acidified, the exterior is alkalized; bicarbonates are used when the intention is to ease acidemia. Supplemental chloride is used for the opposite purpose, so you're making a case against its use. I even suspect the burning of malignancies from sodium chloride that Koch commented is a result of chloride itself; too much sodium will have undesirable effects but can't burn, which in turn is difficult to be interpreted in a positive way.

Some people use magnesium chloride as deodorant, it can only be the high chloride content as well, magnesium alone on armed pits would only encourage bacterial growth. Sodium bicarbonate sometimes is added as food preservative for its milder taste, but sodium chloride is more effective.

 

[charlie]

Poor Frank

 

[somuch4food]

I think I'm sensitive to chloride. This summer I started using a MagOil spray as directed and after only a few days, I began to feel edgy when I applied it. I discontinued its use.

I recently experimented with sea salt baths. One night, I stayed in too long. While in the bath, I started to feel anxious and hyperactive. I had one of my worst insomnia night waking up every hour.

Chloride is what is common to the two.

When magnesium chloride is used topical, is all the chloride absorbed with the magnesium? I don't have extensive knowledge on transdermal absorption of different compounds, that's why I ask, it may be academic to most on the forum.

From personal experience, I would say it is well absorbed.

Seawater is more concentrated than body fluids, so the body must have means of avoiding the absorption of too much sodium or chloride because nothing problematic happens when you swim in seawasser. The problem is that people apply these supplements so undiluted that they appear like oils and even cause irritation.

Do you mean that I should make my bath water more salty to prevent absorption? I was using a few spoonfuls.

I could probably add sodium bicarbonate to the sea salt to counterbalance.

 

[somuch4food]

Interesting article about the composition of seawater: Seawater - Dissolved inorganic substances

I will try to replicate this in my bath to see if I still have adverse effects. I'm thinking that the sun might help counter the acidifying aspect of seawater.

 

[jb116]

Sometimes I'm at odds with posts on this forum with obscure studies saying one thing can be bad for you while I use it for relaxation and sleep (with b6 a deep sleep is a sure thing) and many friends and family members, especially elderly, use mag chloride spray daily on arthritic joints and feel much, much better. I'm also at odds with the vit A/grant thread.

 

[somuch4food]

Sometimes I'm at odds with posts on this forum with obscure studies saying one thing can be bad for you while I use it for relaxation and sleep (with b6 a deep sleep is a sure thing) and many friends and family members, especially elderly, use mag chloride spray daily on arthritic joints and feel much, much better. I'm also at odds with the vit A/grant thread.

It might be because people can be in different states and so, useful treatments differ.

At the moment, I'm doing low A and seem sensitive to chloride. We have to stop seeking one universal health pattern for all living beings. You can live well in many different ways.

 

[jb116]

It might be because people can be in different states and so, useful treatments differ.

At the moment, I'm doing low A and seem sensitive to chloride. We have to stop seeking one universal health pattern for all living beings. You can live well in many different ways.

I don't disagree with the idea of different individuals needing different things but that's a far cry from saying that one thing that seems to be beneficial and needed is for example cancerous or a toxin.

 

[Amazoniac]

I think I'm sensitive to chloride. This summer I started using a MagOil spray as directed and after only a few days, I began to feel edgy when I applied it. I discontinued its use.

I recently experimented with sea salt baths. One night, I stayed in too long. While in the bath, I started to feel anxious and hyperactive. I had one of my worst insomnia night waking up every hour.

Chloride is what is common to the two.



From personal experience, I would say it is well absorbed.



Do you mean that I should make my bath water more salty to prevent absorption? I was using a few spoonfuls.

I could probably add sodium bicarbonate to the sea salt to counterbalance.

I meant the opposite, the more concentrated, the more likely it is to be absorbed. It must be possible to create competition as you make a diversifying of minerals.

--
In case people missed..

Spoiler: Schematic representation of magnesium chloride abortion

Influence of nutrition on acid-base balance – metabolic aspects

 

[somuch4food]

I don't disagree with the idea of different individuals needing different things but that's a far cry from saying that one thing that seems to be beneficial and needed is for example cancerous or a toxin.

I'm still consuming some A and certainly do not adhere to the poison theory, but certainly I am now also suspicious of A being essential. It's the dosage that makes the poison after all. Him being so sensitive is a sign of that something is wrong.

I meant the opposite, the more concentrated, the more likely it is to be absorbed. It must be possible to create competition as you make a diversifying of minerals.

It makes more sense. That's why I was asking.

 

[RayPeatFan777]

Are magnesium chloride baths/foot baths a bad idea then?

 

[somuch4food]

Are magnesium chloride baths/foot baths a bad idea then?

It's a question of dosage like with everything else.

 

[jb116]

I'm still consuming some A and certainly do not adhere to the poison theory, but certainly I am now also suspicious of A being essential. It's the dosage that makes the poison after all. Him being so sensitive is a sign of that something is wrong.

Yes I think so too. Perhaps something akin to hemochromatosis but concerning A.
As far as this mag chloride is concerned, dosage matters of course but so does glycine, gaba, and NAD status and general energy metabolism.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Nutrition and magnesium absorption: a review (Elizabeth Brink)

 

[Waynish]

Making bicarb water by adding magnesium hydroxide to this mineral water (which has high levels of sodium chloride)... So I'm looking into ingesting magnesium chloride & sodium hydroxide. I'll try adding some sodium bicarb to balance it out.