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Excess Magnesium Chloride Intake Causes Frank Acidosis

Discussion in 'Magnesium' started by Amazoniac, Nov 22, 2018.

  1. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    The experiment below confirms what was suspected for a long time.
    Skip to the link if you're not interested in poetry. It's nothing to do with clearing your throat or scraping your shoes on the floor as a substitute for 'excuse me' to the person blocking your way.

    It was used 25 g of MgCl2, which is brutal, but it was also used 40 g of Na2SO4 and it didn't have such effect in spite of also inducing diarrhea (excluding the possibility that this was the cause). 25 g of hydrated MgCl2 should provide 3000 mg of magnesium. For perspective, people on Coimbra's protocol used to take 1200 mg of it; (if I'm not wrong) now they're using others forms of magnesium that are more humane.

    It's common to take it multiple times a day through various routes. The effect might not be as evident as here, but doing it chronically can tax the body over time. It's quite unnecessary given that there are various other (better) forms available. The exception is if for some reason you're after the chloride excess.


    - The production of acidosis by ingestion of magnesium chloride and stronium chloride

    "On two occasions J. B. S. H. [the author gave himself diarrhea to prove this to you] drank a litre of water in which 25 g. MgCl2 were dissolved. The alveolar C02 pressure, estimated by the method of Haldane and Priestley [1905], fell from 39-3 to 32-8 mm. and from 37-2 to 31-9 mm. This fall was completed within 5 hours of taking the salt, but the pressure had not returned to normal on the subsequent mornings. The increased breathing might conceivably have been due to a stimulation of the respiratory centre by Mg; however, an analysis of the urine secreted during the 24 hours after taking the salt left no doubt of the presence of a true acidosis. While on four normal days the acid titrated to phenolphthalein varied between 57 and 61 millimols, 76 were excreted after taking MgCl2. The ammonia, estimated by Malfatti's [1908] method, which had varied between 69 and 75 millimols, rose to 107."

    "There was a possibility that any violent diarrhoea might cause an acidosis through loss of bicarbonate. So, as a control, 40 g. Na2SO4. 1OH20 were drunk in 800 cc. water. This produced copious diarrhoea of a pH about 7 5, but no change in the alveolar C02 pressure."

    "Summary:
    Ingestion of MgCl2 or SrCl2 causes acidosis in man."​


    To recapitulate what has been discussed throughout the foro:

    - Magnesium chloride is about 25% of magnesium and 75% of chloride when you ignore hydration: to get enough magnesium, you'll have to get an unusual amount of chloride
    - Absorption of chloride in nearly complete, magnesium is 35% on average
    - It has two chlorine atoms for each magnesium instead of one as in sodium chloride
    - Chloride (along with sodium) is found in abundance outside the cell, magnesium inside: this tends to upset electrolyte balance in the body
    - We are not used to get massive amounts of chloride without sodium, one balances the other outside the cell
    - Sodium loss is common when weak (as mentioned by Raj many times), shoving down chloride can complicate this aspect
    - Most people's diet are acidic (consider regular use of supplements such as ascorbic and salicylic acid, etc) and many of us are in the latency of acidosis (hence this)
    - Degeneration tends towards acidosis (lactic acid, ketones, etc)
    - Inhalation of chlorine gases in shower or pools is common
    - Excess sodium bicarbonate causes alkalosis, sodium chloride acidosis; sodium is common to both so it can only be chloride
    - Kidneys are already overburdened, no need for more burden when there are better alternatives
    - You can't breathe out chloride like you can carbon dioxide, it's more taxing to regulate imbalances
    - Its taste isn't deceiving; topical application bypasses this making you less aware of how much won't be disturbing​

    - Acidosis and Alkalosis (Donald D. Van Slyke)

    "Experimentally, alkali deficit from acid retention can be produced by severe exercise or anoxia (lactic acid retention), by administration of mineral acids, as in Walter's experiments, or by oral administration of ammonium, calcium, magnesium, or strontium chloride. The ability of these "acidifying salts" to lower the alkali reserve was discovered by J. B. S. Haldane (12 [:handpointup:], 13). The ammonia salts are absorbed, and the ammonia is changed to urea, setting free the HCl of the NH4Cl. Ammonium sulfate and nitrate act similarly. When the Ca, Mg, or Sr chloride is given, the cation is excreted from the intestine and the HCl retained. Because of the diuretic effect of acid retention, these salts may be used as diuretics in conditions where some loss of alkali reserve can be tolerated."​

    - Bench-to-bedside review: Chloride in critical illness

    "Intravenous administration of chloride-rich fluids is probably the most common and modifiable cause of hyperchloraemia in the ICU. The chloride content of these fluids, from 0.9% NaCl (saline) to the various colloids suspended in saline (Tables 1 and 2), is supra-physiologic [51], with significant hyperchloraemia following the administration of such fluids in volunteers [13,52], intraoperatively [9,10,12,14,15,30] or as cardiopulmonary bypass prime fluid [11].

    While saline was a life-saving measure when first introduced during the cholera pandemic of Europe in the 1830s [53], it is to be noted that the saline used then was of a different composition. A reconstitution of the Thomas Latta solution revealed a sodium concentration of 134 mmol/l, chloride 118 mmol/l and bicarbonate 16 mmol/l. The historical or scientific basis of the present-day 0.9% composition of saline remains a mystery, even when traced to those cholera pandemic days that marked the beginning of the intravenous fluid technique and its various solutions [54]. On the other hand, there appears to be common lack of basic knowledge for optimal fluid and electrolyte prescription. Intravenous fluid and electrolyte prescriptions in postoperative surgical patients vary widely, with 0.9% saline being most common, and show poor correlation between serum electrolyte values and the amounts of electrolytes prescribed [55]. Moreover, less than one-half of prescribers in 25 different surgical units were aware of the sodium content of 0.9% saline [56]. Chloride-rich fluids result in acidosis and evidence from animal studies, particularly in sepsis, point to a possible association with negative outcomes."

    "In an animal study of the effects of hyperchloraemic acidosis from saline, the degree of systemic hypotension correlated significantly with the increase in plasma chloride levels [59], a stronger correlation than with pH. A significant increase was also seen in plasma nitrite levels in the saline group; in cell cultures, however, hyperchloraemic acidosis was found to be proinflammatory, inducing nitric oxide release, increased IL-6:IL-10 ratios and increased NF-κB DNA binding [60]. In a second animal study, after controlling for hypotension, there was a significant increase in cytokines with hyperchloraemic acidosis - greater increases were seen with more severe acidosis [61].

    Therefore it would seem prudent to avoid chloride-rich fluids in sepsis despite controversy on whether acidosis results in physiological injury or is just a side effect of illness [62]. At present, the best evidence for acidosis-induced organ injury is mainly from animal studies [63,64] - thus making any specific recommendation difficult."

    "In patients with renal dysfunction, many believe the risk of hyperkalaemia is greater with potassium-containing fluids like lactated solutions, thus leading to significantly higher use of 0.9% saline [72]. In contradiction to this paradigm, a randomized double-blind trial comparing lactated Ringer's solution and 0.9% saline during renal transplantation revealed a higher incidence of hyperkalaemia in the 0.9% saline group instead of in the lactated Ringer's solution group. The incidence of metabolic acidosis was also higher in the 0.9% saline group [73]. The authors suggested that hyperkalaemia was secondary to extracellular potassium shift due to hyperchloraemic (low-SID) acidosis."​

    - Magnesium Chloride And Magnesium Sulfate: A Comparison
    - "The Primary Sources Of Acidity In The Diet Are Sulfur-containing AAs, Salt, And Phosphoric Acid"
     
  2. Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    Your need for chloride all depends on your individual state.

    Many people take trace minerals and have great benefits, and that has a ton of Mag Chloride in it. So small amounts are not terrible.

    I will say, if you do take it, use a pill form. The liquid forms all burn your esophagus and make acid reflux much worse.
     
  3. sweetpeat

    sweetpeat Member

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    I think forum member @yerrag had a similar experience with Mg chloride
     
  4. LCohen

    LCohen Member

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    That's the problem. lol
     
  5. OP
    Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Once you see the gbolduev in Tarmander, it is really hard to unsee))

    Small amounts can't be detrimental but no matter what your current state is, anything beyond what tastes great is detrimental, you can't get plenty of magnesium without reaching doses of chloride that don't give the bitter taste. This is a nutrient and not a drug, it isn't supposed to taste bad under any circumstance. Ask a kid to give an opinion on it.

    Regarding ConcenTrace, they remove its sodium, but what if removing chloride along made no difference on the benefits? And what about leaving sodium there to make it more balanced?
    I edited the title to avoid unnecessary alarm. Is it better now? The problem is that many people have low-grade acidosis that can't yet be detected, and this form will be disturbing. So as always, the excess is subjective.

    Chloride salts are used in management of metabolic alkalosis, but (as commented with Tarmander) its insufficiency is not the cause or what sustains such state. If it didn't acidify, it would not be used for such purpose. Some gurus take copious amounts of this supplement through multiple routes without realizing that chloride is having an effect on them.
     
  6. Dave Clark

    Dave Clark Member

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    When magnesium chloride is used topical, is all the chloride absorbed with the magnesium? I don't have extensive knowledge on transdermal absorption of different compounds, that's why I ask, it may be academic to most on the forum.
     
  7. Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    I see what you did there...

    Gotta give credit where credit is due...adding chloride for me was a game changer in a positive way. No more nerve pain in the feet and heel, CO2 in bloods came down, metabolism kicked in.

    I won't be taking RU486 with my own urine anytime soon though
     
  8. paymanz

    paymanz Member

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    salt provides enough chloride , there is no reason to look for it into any other sources. ( ok ok yessss if you had vomiting or respiratory acidosis then you loss chloride so you need it ,lol)

    agree with amazoniac.
     
  9. Janelle525

    Janelle525 Member

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    I never liked mag chloride. Always felt weird when I put it on my skin too. I dont understand the rave reviews. I guess most people are hypothyroid and cant hold on to mag thus have heart issues and cramping.
     
  10. Elephanto

    Elephanto Member

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    I think the title would be true if you removed "Magnesium" from it. Chloride is one of the harshest acids, especially harmful to the gut linings when ingested orally. I think even the amount in tap water can be problematic and it is one of the reasons why using a tap filter is probably healthier. People also mention skin and hair improvements from using shower tap filters, this could be due not only to the removal of calcium deposits in water but also of chlorine just as importantly.
     
  11. OP
    Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    "That's a good question" as Michael Holick would say to ones that he knows the answers (that is, all), except that I don't know for sure. What I'm about to comment is just thinking out loud.

    Minerals circulate balanced in the body, therefore when you apply a molecule on the skin, one part of it tends to attract the other during absorption; if magnesium is absorbed, it's likely that it draws chloride with it.

    Myth or Reality—Transdermal Magnesium?

    It's already difficult to absorb magnesium, which is smaller than the chloride ions, so it's probable that the absorption is lower for chloride.

    However, in one of those links in the original post it was discovered that sulfate ion (which is bigger than chloride) is absorbed even earlier than magnesium when someone is exposed to magnesium sulfate: it's quite possible that chloride is absorbed as well. This also means that there's more to the story than just size.

    Seawater is more concentrated than body fluids, so the body must have means of avoiding the absorption of too much sodium or chloride because nothing problematic happens when you swim in seawasser. The problem is that people apply these supplements so undiluted that they appear like oils and even cause irritation.

    If I happen to find something relevant to this, I'll let you know.
    I remember you were taking a lot of potassium chloride. Have you tried other potassium salts that gave you similar amounts? Do all chloride salts give you the same effect?
    This is the kind of experience that makes me think that it must be chloride the responsible. Do you also feel weird with magnesium sulfate? Because if not, the first suspect is chloride (not being ironic because it can be something else, like impurities being absorbed, some local skin irritation that affects hormones, etc).
     
  12. tara

    tara Member

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    Based on intuition, I now generally only use the magnesium chloride as an emergency topical remedy for occasional muscle cramps. 9/10 times it is quickly effective (~10-30 seconds), which makes me think the Mg is absorbed fast.
    I tried drinking some diluted, but didn't persist. Possibly tiny amounts would be OK, but 1/4 teaspoon of crystals put me off. Chloride effect could be a contender.
     
  13. paymanz

    paymanz Member

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    Chlorine and chloride are different stuff...
     
  14. Elephanto

    Elephanto Member

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  15. michael94

    michael94 Member

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    whats ru486 have in common worh gbolduev?
     
  16. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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    If you think chlorine isn't essentially different from chloride, try seasoning your french fries with bleach instead of salt.
     
  17. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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    Lol
     
  18. michael94

    michael94 Member

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    miracle mineral
     
  19. OP
    Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    It is absorbed, but the relative absorption is low considering how much is applied.

    I wonder if it's possible that chloride also has an effect when it attracts sodium:

    Ray Peat

    "The alkali minerals can substitute to a great extent for each other, so a slight excess of magnesium or sodium or potassium will help to spare calcium in a stress situation. And calcium can likewise make up for a deficiency of one of the others. For example, if you’re having cramps, it might essentially be a magnesium deficiency. But you can often stop the cramp with just baking soda (or salty water) or milk (for the calcium) or fruit (for the high potassium content). It lets you re-arrange the balance of your alkaline minerals and helps to make up for a crisis deficiency of one of them."​

    It makes no sense for the body to excrete the excess through the intestines because it can easily be reabsorbed; people with slow metabolisms also barely sweat; therefore we're left with urine as the main way of clearing the excess. However! Many of us don't retain magnesium well, and to pee out chloride, you'll be flushing out the magnesium along, so we might end in a worse situation than before.
    I don't understand what League of Legends has to do with that, but I'm not equating them, I'm pointing out that chlorine inhalation increases the acid load, and shoving down chloride will further acidify the person.

    The body will try to turn something harmful into something milder or even useful when it can. Most of the effects of inhalation will be on the lungs, but when it enters the body, it's reasonable to assume that some chloride is formed. It must be possible as well to affect stomach acid for example. It's mobile:

    Chlorine gas poisoning - Wikipedia

    "Once inhaled, chlorine gas diffuses into the epithelial lining fluid (ELF) of the respiratory epithelium and may directly interact with small molecules, proteins and lipids there and damage them, or may hydrolyze to hypochlorous acid and hydrochloric acid which in turn generate chloride ions and reactive oxygen species; the dominant theory is that most damage is via the acids."​

    Magnesium chloride is not all bad, you can use it to de-ice your sidewalk so that the postal service is able to deliver a better form at your home.
    I have noticed that chlorine but to some extent also imbalanced chloride affect hair quality for the worse, especially if there's not enough alkaline minerals at the time.
    The title is now correct. Magnesium is not the responsible but that's an effect of magnesium chloride: you can't isolate them when taking it.
    Your posts are great!
     
  20. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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    Actually, it's the other way around.

    "For years Dr. Coimbra has recommended magnesium glycinate but is now recommending magnesium chloride, 500 mg twice a day for most patients."
     
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