Everything that should improve thyroid makes me more hypothyroid

[BearWithMe]

Have you ever had a vitamin d and/or PTH (parathyroid) blood test. I think Peat has discussed how tooth loss and hairloss (including body hair) are related to the this.
I know he had mentioned several times that he lost his own teeth when consuming a lot of wheat germ to save money due to the large amount of phosphate

There might be a lot of bad thyroid supplements out there, which one did you try?

Have you been able to track your temperature and pulse rate throughout the day to get an indication of your thyroid function with and without a supplement?Temperature and Pulse Basics & Monthly Log – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Are you able to acquire thiamine HCL? I think that is the preferred version;

"Thiamine also provides Hcl in its regular form, which is also important for acid production. CO2 and Hcl are the biggest factors in good digestion and thiamine Hcl helps with both."
Is Allithiamine Holy Grail? Against The World With Smile?

"Dental abscesses probably originate with digestive problems; a dentist I knew discovered that he no longer had to treat his patients’ periodontal disease surgically when he prescribed laxatives for them. I think the “silent infection” doctrine is mostly an excuse for expensive treatments. The association between jaw abscesses and heart disease is probably by way of a more general problem involving low vitamin D, a low ratio of calcium to phosphate in the diet, intestinal inflammation, and chronic activation of the renin-angiotensin system."
Ray Peat Email Advice Depository

"My first step would be to thoroughly investigate TSH, temperature, vitamin D, and calcium. No, everything is always changing, reflecting your whole situation. Developing baldness is a warning sign of basic metabolic problems, tending toward general circulatory disease."
Ray Peat Email Advice Depository

"RP: it requires your whole course of of health problems. The hair loss tends to coincide with circulatory problems and behind the circulatory problems are metabolic problems. So the things to work on are getting your vitamin D up, your thyroid and progesterone and DHEA up. And your cortisol and the the other stress hormones: aldosterone and parathyroid hormone are very destructive to the hair follicle and blood vessels and and heart. And so if you change your metabolism: lowering parathyroid hormone and aldosterone and and cortisol and all of the stress-related hormones including prolactin that's going to save your circulatory system as well as your hair."
ORN 2020-06-15: Dr. Peat On COVID Testing, Exosomes, EMFs, Gray Hair, Vaccines, Aging

Sorry to hear you're having problems, hopefully you can get things turned around. I also get anxiety occasionally. Recently I heard it discussed the best thing to do is to try and get blood sugar up in these situations and to lower the free fatty acids

This post is pure gold, a well of knowledge. Thanks for the RP quotes!

I haven't had vitamin D / PTH test done recently, but I definitely have some kind of calcium metabolism problem. My total blood calcium and ionized calcium always comes back very high, it is getting higher and higher over time and it is directly correlated with my other issues (digestive etc) - the higher my blood calcium, the worse my digestion (and other problems) are.

Have tried Thiroyd NDT from Thailand (which I suspect might be of a poor quality) and Cynoplus.

Haven't been tracking temps and pulses back then. Definitely will do that when I start experimenting with thyroid supplement again.

The reason I'm using Thiamine Pyrophosphate is that I can't tolerate Thiamine HCL. It is giving me unbearable stomach pains.

 

[peateats1]

This post is pure gold, a well of knowledge. Thanks for the RP quotes!

I haven't had vitamin D / PTH test done recently, but I definitely have some kind of calcium metabolism problem. My total blood calcium and ionized calcium always comes back very high, it is getting higher and higher over time and it is directly correlated with my other issues (digestive etc) - the higher my blood calcium, the worse my digestion (and other problems) are.

Have tried Thiroyd NDT from Thailand (which I suspect might be of a poor quality) and Cynoplus.

Haven't been tracking temps and pulses back then. Definitely will do that when I start experimenting with thyroid supplement again.

The reason I'm using Thiamine Pyrophosphate is that I can't tolerate Thiamine HCL. It is giving me unbearable stomach pains.

If your calcium scores are always high, that could be a major part of your problem. High calcium causes potassium wasting and poor magnesium status. It also will wreak havoc on your entire metabolism. If you're taking a vitamin D supplement or getting any via milk, you might want to stop.
Try searching for the secosteroid hormone D page on Facebook. There's a wealth of information on there. Also, the magnesium advocacy group on Facebook is good, and Matt Blackburns Facebook or Instagram.
You need to get your calcium down. Stop all vitamin d, increase potassium and magnesium, check your ceruloplasmin and copper, iron, zinc, rbc magnesium and potassium levels. Vitamin k might be helpful to direct all that calcium out of the blood and soft tissues and into bone where it belongs.
I took high dose vitamin D for several years and ended up with cavities and thinning/clear teeth. I stopped all vitamin D last year and worked on fixing mineral and electrolytes and now my cavities have shrunk in size and teeth are more opaque and healthy looking.

 

[schultz]

Big Gulps, fruit juices, dried fruit, candy bars, white sugar, honey, maple syrup, etc. are not fortified with thiamine but the sugar in them requires thiamine to convert it into ATP in the mitochondria. If you go overboard on these you are probably going to get yourself in trouble with a thiamine deficiency.

Orange juice has thiamine in it. Are you saying it doesn't have enough for the amount of sugar it has? 500g of carbohydrates from OJ gives 370% of the RDA for thiamine. Presumably, drinking it throughout the day (instead of taking a huge supplement dose all at once) and the fact that it's from a food source, I would imagine it's more bioavailable than a supplement in powder form. Of course I am merely guessing.

I don't think there are any food sources that contain a lot of thiamine either. And people who are following Ray Peat's advice don't eat much brown rice, whole wheat, etc.

Pork tenderloin has a decent amount. 80% of the RDA for 100g.

Orange juice has more thiamine than brown rice and whole wheat.

 

[redsun]

I think I have tried almost every thyroid protocol and product there is. Iodine + Selenium + B3 + Vitamin C, NDT, synthetic T3/T4, caffeine, aspirin, red light, salt... the result is always the same - it makes my hypothyroidism worse.

Even things that stimulate thyroid indirectly - like testosterone replacement, DHEA or vitamin K2 - do that.

I believe this is why I lost my teeth when supplementing T3/T4.

Am I deficient in some nutrient, and stimulating thyroid deplete it even more, which in turn makes me more hypothyroid?

Is this a pituitary / hypothalamus problem? Or problem with adrenal glands?

How to get out of this trap?

Forcing the thyroid up with certain supplements rarely does any good. Iodine + Selenium is bad news. Only improved well-being only in the short term but makes everything worse then it was before. Thyroid supplementation is a hit or miss but if you get severe problems from T3/T4 (like losing teeth) then you do not need more thyroid. You are wasting yourself away. Usually this is due to cortisol skyrocketing because the metabolism is sped up insanely and you cannot keep up. B1 makes you burn sugars faster, will likely also raise cortisol. Losing hairs all over the body is really more signs of high cortisol

Caffeine doesnt really raise cortisol and helps your burn fat instead of burning your sugar stores too faster like thyroid boosters but if you still dont do well on it don't consume it.

You need all the B vitamins so use a B-Complex, Zinc + Magnesium in low doses, you can keep vitamin C (1g) in there as its helpful for the metabolism. Vitamin E at the RDA is also helpful here. Get plenty of calcium from dairy. If you can't consume dairy, supplement calcium citrate to get at least 1g of it daily.

Get some choline from eggs daily if you don't already eat eggs. Do not take iodine, selenium, thyroid, until you let your body recover itself with B-vitamins, Zn+Mg, C, E, calcium, and plenty of protein and carbs. Caffeine also helps this as well.

Liver is a highly imbalanced food so if you are in a delicate state, and especially if you are in a delicate state, do not touch it ever. Eat more muscle meats and get plenty of protein from a combo of meat, dairy, eggs, seafood so your hair stops wasting away.

 

[mostlylurking]

Pork tenderloin has a decent amount. 80% of the RDA for 100g.

The RDA might keep you breathing. Who decides the RDA anyway? The government? Was any actual science used? Are parameters of the study available?

Orange juice has more thiamine than brown rice and whole wheat.

Orange juice has .009 mg thiamine in 8 oz. But orange juice has many other redeeming attributes. 8 fluid oz of orange juice has 21.81 grams of sugar. 500 grams of sugar equals almost 23 glasses (8 fl oz) of orange juice, which equals 182.4 fluid ounces or 5.7 quarts of orange juice, which is 5.7 times more that what Ray Peat suggests drinking, along with a couple of quarts of milk, to get the amount of healthy sugars needed daily.

Eating sugar laden foods uses up thiamine. Thiamine deficiencies are damaging to health because thiamine is required to make ATP out of glucose.

B1 makes you burn sugars faster, will likely also raise cortisol.

B1 is required to burn sugar at all; it is also required to burn fat for fuel. If your oxidative metabolism is blocked because your thiamine is deficient or blocked then you cannot make ATP; you can only make lactic acid which starts a whole cascade of undesirable things like Warburg's Cancer Metabolism tends to do.

 

[AndrogenicJB]

Forcing the thyroid up with certain supplements rarely does any good. Iodine + Selenium is bad news. Only improved well-being only in the short term but makes everything worse then it was before. Thyroid supplementation is a hit or miss but if you get severe problems from T3/T4 (like losing teeth) then you do not need more thyroid. You are wasting yourself away. Usually this is due to cortisol skyrocketing because the metabolism is sped up insanely and you cannot keep up. B1 makes you burn sugars faster, will likely also raise cortisol. Losing hairs all over the body is really more signs of high cortisol

Caffeine doesnt really raise cortisol and helps your burn fat instead of burning your sugar stores too faster like thyroid boosters but if you still dont do well on it don't consume it.

You need all the B vitamins so use a B-Complex, Zinc + Magnesium in low doses, you can keep vitamin C (1g) in there as its helpful for the metabolism. Vitamin E at the RDA is also helpful here. Get plenty of calcium from dairy. If you can't consume dairy, supplement calcium citrate to get at least 1g of it daily.

Get some choline from eggs daily if you don't already eat eggs. Do not take iodine, selenium, thyroid, until you let your body recover itself with B-vitamins, Zn+Mg, C, E, calcium, and plenty of protein and carbs. Caffeine also helps this as well.

Liver is a highly imbalanced food so if you are in a delicate state, and especially if you are in a delicate state, do not touch it ever. Eat more muscle meats and get plenty of protein from a combo of meat, dairy, eggs, seafood so your hair stops wasting away.

Are you sure calcium citrate is a good form, I need a bio-available calcium sup

 

[BearWithMe]

Orange juice has .009 mg thiamine in 8 oz. But orange juice has many other redeeming attributes. 8 fluid oz of orange juice has 21.81 grams of sugar. 500 grams of sugar equals almost 23 glasses (8 fl oz) of orange juice, which equals 182.4 fluid ounces or 5.7 quarts of orange juice, which is 5.7 times more that what Ray Peat suggests drinking, along with a couple of quarts of milk, to get the amount of healthy sugars needed daily.

I have already told you I'm not drinking 5.7 quarts of OJ a day, nothing even close to that

 

[redsun]

B1 is required to burn sugar at all; it is also required to burn fat for fuel. If your oxidative metabolism is blocked because your thiamine is deficient or blocked then you cannot make ATP; you can only make lactic acid which starts a whole cascade of undesirable things like Warburg's Cancer Metabolism tends to do.

When you megadose B1, you burn glucose faster then you normally would. We need 2-3mg a day, which can be obtained from food. When you take way over this amount, you will burn glucose faster, causing cortisol to rise in response. It quickly becomes a point of diminishing returns after you replete thiamine levels. This is why you preferably take all the B vitamins, as they will also help fat oxidation.

Are you sure calcium citrate is a good form, I need a bio-available calcium sup

Yes it is bioavailable.

 

[AndrogenicJB]

When you megadose B1, you burn glucose faster then you normally would. We need 2-3mg a day, which can be obtained from food. When you take way over this amount, you will burn glucose faster, causing cortisol to rise in response. It quickly becomes a point of diminishing returns after you replete thiamine levels. This is why you preferably take all the B vitamins, as they will also help fat oxidation.


Yes it is bioavailable.

Is it better than carbonate

 

[schultz]

The RDA might keep you breathing. Who decides the RDA anyway? The government? Was any actual science used? Are parameters of the study available?

Orange juice has .009 mg thiamine in 8 oz. But orange juice has many other redeeming attributes. 8 fluid oz of orange juice has 21.81 grams of sugar. 500 grams of sugar equals almost 23 glasses (8 fl oz) of orange juice, which equals 182.4 fluid ounces or 5.7 quarts of orange juice, which is 5.7 times more that what Ray Peat suggests drinking, along with a couple of quarts of milk, to get the amount of healthy sugars needed daily.

Eating sugar laden foods uses up thiamine. Thiamine deficiencies are damaging to health because thiamine is required to make ATP out of glucose.


B1 is required to burn sugar at all; it is also required to burn fat for fuel. If your oxidative metabolism is blocked because your thiamine is deficient or blocked then you cannot make ATP; you can only make lactic acid which starts a whole cascade of undesirable things like Warburg's Cancer Metabolism tends to do.

I tend to use the RDA as a loose reference. That doesn't mean I look at a nutrient and say that I must get exactly 100%. Some nutrients I aim for double or triple the RDA, or more. The RDA is based on research. It's probably a reasonably good indicator of what a person needs for most of the micronutrients listed. Obviously there will be exceptions depending on a persons circumstances. Thyroid level can increase a persons need for vitamins immensely. I imagine some of the levels they list are not optimal, merely enough of the nutrient not to cause outright deficiency. But that is up to each of us to define on our own. I've just always used the percentage when I think about how much of a nutrient I am getting because I find it easier. 1mg doesn't mean much to me. Something like 500% means more to me because I am used to it. Just like how I use inches when I am building something. Centimetres doesn't mean very much to me because I am not used to using the metric. So I merely use it as my own personal gauge... sorry for that long explanation lol

According to cronometer...
8 fl oz of orange juice has 0.2mg of thiamine.
182.4 fl oz of orange juice has 5.1mg of thiamine.

0.009mg of thiamine per cup is 22 times lower than what cronometer lists it as. Where are you getting your number from?

Edit: I realized it sounds like I am arguing with you. I would like to say that the point about thiamine and refined carbohydrates if a very good one and people should definitely keep that in mind. I probably don't get as much as I should if I am being honest with myself.

 

[redsun]

Is it better than carbonate

Yes. Use citrate.

 

[mostlylurking]

I have already told you I'm not drinking 5.7 quarts of OJ a day, nothing even close to that

I know that. I'm trying to show you how much sugar 500 grams is. I have no idea where you came up with 500 grams of sugar for the quantity you said you consume daily.

 

[mostlylurking]

I tend to use the RDA as a loose reference. That doesn't mean I look at a nutrient and say that I must get exactly 100%. Some nutrients I aim for double or triple the RDA, or more. The RDA is based on research. It's probably a reasonably good indicator of what a person needs for most of the micronutrients listed. Obviously there will be exceptions depending on a persons circumstances. Thyroid level can increase a persons need for vitamins immensely. I imagine some of the levels they list are not optimal, merely enough of the nutrient not to cause outright deficiency. But that is up to each of us to define on our own. I've just always used the percentage when I think about how much of a nutrient I am getting because I find it easier. 1mg doesn't mean much to me. Something like 500% means more to me because I am used to it. Just like how I use inches when I am building something. Centimetres doesn't mean very much to me because I am not used to using the metric. So I merely use it as my own personal gauge... sorry for that long explanation lol

According to cronometer...
8 fl oz of orange juice has 0.2mg of thiamine.
182.4 fl oz of orange juice has 5.1mg of thiamine.

0.009mg of thiamine per cup is 22 times lower than what cronometer lists it as. Where are you getting your number from?

Edit: I realized it sounds like I am arguing with you. I would like to say that the point about thiamine and refined carbohydrates if a very good one and people should definitely keep that in mind. I probably don't get as much as I should if I am being honest with myself.

I pulled the number I used from an internet search. I'll see if I can find it. I can't find it now. However, I did find your number on another site other than a cronometer site. So my number could simply be wrong.

If you are very healthy and your body has no toxin load (like heavy metals or environmental toxins) or pharmaceutical drugs or antibiotics and your metabolism is working just great then the RDA numbers might work fine. My situation is much different and I require a lot more than the RDA for thiamine.

The need for thiamine also depends on how much sugar your body is burning for fuel. If you give it more sugar than you've got thiamine to process it, your body will convert the sugar to fat and store it.

 

[BearWithMe]

I know that. I'm trying to show you how much sugar 500 grams is. I have no idea where you came up with 500 grams of sugar for the quantity you said you consume daily.

I haven't mentioned any quantities of food in this whole thread, but here you go.

Now please stop derailing my thread

 

[mostlylurking]

I haven't mentioned any quantities of food in this whole thread, but here you go.

View attachment 22071

Now please stop derailing my thread

Your thread was asking for help because everything you're doing makes you feel hypothyroid.

I think I have tried almost every thyroid protocol and product there is. Iodine + Selenium + B3 + Vitamin C, NDT, synthetic T3/T4, caffeine, aspirin, red light, salt... the result is always the same - it makes my hypothyroidism worse.

Even things that stimulate thyroid indirectly - like testosterone replacement, DHEA or vitamin K2 - do that.

I believe this is why I lost my teeth when supplementing T3/T4.

Am I deficient in some nutrient, and stimulating thyroid deplete it even more, which in turn makes me more hypothyroid?

I'm trying to tell you that you are sabotaging yourself with the amount of sugar you are eating because you don't have enough thiamine to process it. Thiamine deficiency symptoms exactly match the symptoms of hypothyroidism because a deficiency in either will block oxidative metabolism.

Do whatever you please; its your body.

 

[AndrogenicJB]

Your thread was asking for help because everything you're doing makes you feel hypothyroid.


I'm trying to tell you that you are sabotaging yourself with the amount of sugar you are eating because you don't have enough thiamine to process it. Thiamine deficiency symptoms exactly match the symptoms of hypothyroidism because a deficiency in either will block oxidative metabolism.

Do whatever you please; its your body.

Would taking 20mg thiamine hcl be fine

 

[AndrogenicJB]

Your thread was asking for help because everything you're doing makes you feel hypothyroid.


I'm trying to tell you that you are sabotaging yourself with the amount of sugar you are eating because you don't have enough thiamine to process it. Thiamine deficiency symptoms exactly match the symptoms of hypothyroidism because a deficiency in either will block oxidative metabolism.

Do whatever you please; its your body.

I haven't mentioned any quantities of food in this whole thread, but here you go.

View attachment 22071

Now please stop derailing my thread

Raisins are so nice

 

[BearWithMe]

Your thread was asking for help because everything you're doing makes you feel hypothyroid.


I'm trying to tell you that you are sabotaging yourself with the amount of sugar you are eating because you don't have enough thiamine to process it. Thiamine deficiency symptoms exactly match the symptoms of hypothyroidism because a deficiency in either will block oxidative metabolism.

Do whatever you please; its your body.

I have already told you why thiamine deficiency is very unlikely in my case, right?

 

[AndrogenicJB]

S

Yes. Use citrate.

Should I take it away from food since calcium interferes with other minerals

 

[mostlylurking]

I have already told you why thiamine deficiency is very unlikely in my case, right?

No. You have not done that.