Everything that should improve thyroid makes me more hypothyroid

[AndrogenicJB]

Still, you don't want to have 6+mg of copper in your diet every day.

Also, 1 oz of beef liver contains almost no B1 (0.1mg)

What should I eat for b1 that's peaty and not starch? Should I supplement?

 

[mostlylurking]

It is 200g of sugar, which some people already consider high. You are talking about needing tens/hundreds of milligrams of thiamine to avoid deficiency but even assuming a proportionally lower requirement with lower carb intake I don't think there are any food sources that contain such a high amount.

I don't think there are any food sources that contain a lot of thiamine either. And people who are following Ray Peat's advice don't eat much brown rice, whole wheat, etc. The thiamine is in the part that is considered to increase endotoxin by feeding the gut bacteria. Reading a list of thiamine food sources is like reading a list of questionable foods to be avoided because of other valid reasons, mainly to keep endotoxin levels down.

A lot of people have trouble with utilizing thiamine for a lot of different reasons, and new issues can develop which change your ability to utilize thiamine. If you have no issues then you can probably rock along with a high sugar diet, drinking multiple cups of coffee a day, with your oxidative metabolism running wide open and feeling great. However, if you throw in a heavy toxin load that blocks thiamine (heavy metals, other environmental chemicals) or ingest a thiamine blocker (pharmaceutical drugs including antibiotics and also caffeine) then the equation becomes much different and you find yourself in trouble and you don't know why. It may be that you can no longer run your oxidative metabolism because a problem utilizing thiamine has blocked it or you used up all your thiamine burning sugar in oxidative metabolism. Hypothyroidism blocks oxidative metabolism; thiamine deficiency or blockage does too.

You can also be predisposed to thiamine issues by being born with a genetic "defect" that affects the ability of one of your enzymes that uses thiamine as a co-factor to lock onto it effectively.

Research is finding that really large doses of thiamine can overcome these utilization problems. I've been posting articles and videos about it in this thread.

 

[EIRE24]

This is the thiamine I'm using at the moment:

https://www.iherb.com/pr/

I'm definitely not drinking 6 quarts of OJ. I'm buying frozen OJ concentrate and eating some dried fruits (raisins, papayas).


I was also thinking about thiamine deficiency, but I was using some kind of high quality high dose B-Complex every day for past... 7 years maybe? That's about 2000% DV of thiamine every day. Unless I have some serious thiamine absorbtion / metabolism problem, I can't imagine how I could acquire thiamine deficiency.

Could you please link the vitamin B1 that you use again please, that link does not seem to be working for me. Thank you.

 

[BearWithMe]

What should I eat for b1 that's peaty and not starch? Should I supplement?

Dr. Peat generally doesn't recommend supplementing anything, but many users on this forum supplement B vitamins with great results.

 

[BearWithMe]

Could you please link the vitamin B1 that you use again please, that link does not seem to be working for me. Thank you.

Sure!

Amazon product ASIN B000K96XPC

 

[mostlylurking]

Dr. Peat generally doesn't recommend supplementing anything, but many users on this forum supplement B vitamins with great results.

If you read Dr. Peat's articles, there is usually a paragraph towards the end that makes suggestions that include supplementing with some things, including some vitamins. Here's an example from here: Mitochondria and mortality

"Therapeutically, even powerful toxins that block the glycolytic enzymes can improve functions in a variety of organic disturbances "associated with" (caused by) excessive production of lactic acid. Unfortunately, the toxin that has become standard treatment for lactic acidosis—dichloroacetic acid—is a carcinogen, and eventually produces liver damage and acidosis. But several nontoxic therapies can do the same things: Palmitate (formed from sugar under the influence of thyroid hormone, and found in coconut oil), vitamin Bl, biotin, lipoic acid, carbon dioxide, thyroid, naloxone, acetazolamide, for example. Progesterone, by blocking estrogen's disruptive effects on the mitochondria, ranks along with thyroid and a diet free of polyunsaturate fats, for importance in mitochondrial maintenance."

Please note that Ray Peat frequently recommends vitamin B1.

"excessive production of lactic acid" is caused by a vitamin B1 (thiamine) deficiency. Taking B1 lowers lactic acid.

"carbon dioxide" is increased by taking B1 via properly functioning oxidative metabolism.

"Acetazolamide" is suggested because it increases carbon dioxide.

 

[nitro warrior]

Damn, this sounds really intense. Happy to hear you are experiencing some improvements already.

I can relate to many of these things, including bad reactions to liver and very dry skin. Recovering vegan here too, btw.

Hopefully we will find some answers!

Do you have a lot of dandruff to go along with the dry skin? What about hair loss?

 

[LLight]

Is the hydration problem you were mentioning in April solved?

In my impression, water homeostasis is linked to the LXR (and FXR) nuclear receptors, which itself seems to have a weird association with thyroid itself and a potential impact on iodine metabolism in parallel of the one induce by thyroid:
​

The LXR transcription factor activation seems to be able to upregulate the NIS (sodium/iodide symporter):
The cholesterol-derived metabolite dendrogenin A functionally reprograms breast adenocarcinoma and undifferentiated thyroid cancer cells - PubMed
"131-I incorporation in the 8505c cells was stimulated by DDA as well as by the synthetic LXR ligand, GW3965. Together these data show that the re-differentiation of breast and thyroid cancer cells by DDA, is associated with the recovery of functional NIS expression and involves an LXR-dependent mechanism."

Moreover, the LXR and thyroid hormone receptors could features some interactions:
Regulation of thyroid hormone activation via the liver X-receptor/retinoid X-receptor pathway
"Our data indicate that hDIO2 transcription is negatively regulated by both 22(R)-OH-cholesterol and 9-cis RA, which is consistent with LXR/RXR involvement. In vivo, the inhibition of D2-mediated tri-iodothyronine (T3) production by cholesterol/9-cis RA could function as a feedback loop, given that T3 decreases hepatic cholesterol levels."

Sterol regulatory element-binding proteins are regulators of the NIS gene in thyroid cells - PubMed
"In conclusion, the present study shows, for the first time, that the sterol-sensitive SREBPs are not only functional in tissues with pronounced lipid biosynthesis activity, such as liver or adipose tissue, but also in thyroid epithelial cells. The observation from this study that SREBP-1c and SREBP-2 are novel transcriptional regulators of NIS, which is essential for thyroid hormone synthesis, indicates that SREBPs are possible novel targets for pharmacologic modulation of thyroid hormone synthesis and for induction of NIS for effective radioiodine therapy."
The LXR activates SREBP-1C which itself upregulates NIS in the thyroid.​

Moreover, LXR (and FXR especially) might be connected with gut and liver health. LXR/FXR seems to govern the production of bile acids and antimicrobial substances in the gut and in macrophages. This is hardly a proof but I've seen some testimonies of people restricting their fluid or dry fasting improving their digestions in the same time. That being said, I'm not sure of how dangerous this would be in your state of health, I'm not recommending anything, just throwing ideas.

Also regarding you stress:

Intermittent drinking, oxytocin and human health

Looking at a waterhole, it is surprising that so many animals share the same space without visible signs of anxiety or aggression. Although waterholes…

www.sciencedirect.com

Our hypothesis; regulating drinking behaviour through intermittent bulk drinking could increase oxytocin signalling, recover human trust and increase health by down-regulation of stress axis activity and inflammatory activity of the immune system. Intermittent bulk drinking should be defined as water (including tea and coffee) drinking up to a feeling of satiety and regulated by a mild feeling of thirst. This would mean that people would not drink less quantity but less frequently and that’s how all animals, but also human newborns behave. It is the latter group, which is probably the only group of humans with a normal fluid homeostasis.

 

[BearWithMe]

Do you have a lot of dandruff to go along with the dry skin? What about hair loss?

Oh yes, absolutely. Both of these. I'm waking up with pillow covered in white flakes every morning. Every time I run a hand through my hair, 50-100 hairs stays on my hand.

Even my facial hair and body hair falls out so easily... I'm pulling out my chest hairs just by using a towel after shower. It is scary.

What could be the cause?

 

[nitro warrior]

Probably another low thyroid effect. Were you a smoker and/or heavy drinker at any point? Do you use to feel anxious to the point of panic and keep it to yourself?

 

[BearWithMe]

Probably another low thyroid effect. Were you a smoker and/or heavy drinker at any point? Do you use to feel anxious to the point of panic and keep it to yourself?

I have never smoked or drinked. But I'm getting full blown panic attack quite often. I'm always trying to suppress it, so my family doesn't see me like that.

If my dandruff, dry skin and hairfall is caused by the thyroid, apparently my thyroid is slowly getting worse and worse over time. Despite my efforts, for no apparent reason. These symptoms got really bad recently. Along with much worse digestion.

 

[nitro warrior]

I have never smoked or drinked. But I'm getting full blown panic attack quite often. I'm always trying to suppress it, so my family doesn't see me like that.

If my dandruff, dry skin and hairfall is caused by the thyroid, apparently my thyroid is slowly getting worse and worse over time. Despite my efforts, for no apparent reason. These symptoms got really bad recently. Along with much worse digestion.

Chronically feeling like that and always suppressing it might have something to do with it. If you get a panic attack and just sit there waiting for it to go way its kinda "eating at you" you know? I'd say you should get a hug or something and be noticed/open up about it. Its understandable that you don't want to share it so another suggestion is to immediately exercise like pushups, boxing or whatever intensely until you feel better any time you get it. Veganism likely contributed. Were you eating lots of legumes? What is your water source for drinking/boiling/showering? Do you ever feel your gut throbbing and painful if you eat the wrong stuff which are mostly starches?

 

[BearWithMe]

Is the hydration problem you were mentioning in April solved?

In my impression, water homeostasis is linked to the LXR (and FXR) nuclear receptors, which itself seems to have a weird association with thyroid itself and a potential impact on iodine metabolism in parallel of the one induce by thyroid:
​

Moreover, LXR (and FXR especially) might be connected with gut and liver health. LXR/FXR seems to govern the production of bile acids and antimicrobial substances in the gut and in macrophages. This is hardly a proof but I've seen some testimonies of people restricting their fluid or dry fasting improving their digestions in the same time. That being said, I'm not sure of how dangerous this would be in your state of health, I'm not recommending anything, just throwing ideas.

Also regarding you stress:

Intermittent drinking, oxytocin and human health

Looking at a waterhole, it is surprising that so many animals share the same space without visible signs of anxiety or aggression. Although waterholes…

www.sciencedirect.com

No, it is not solved unfortunatelly.

This is really interesting.

I'm eating so much liquid food I'm actually not drinking water at all, all my fluid needs are covered by foods.

But I was really dehydrated even when my drinking and eating habits were close to what the article is describing - intermittent bulk drinking.

 

[BearWithMe]

Not sure what is happening, but my eyebrows are now getting visibly thinner and thinner every day, and my teeth hurts more than ever. I'm getting bald spots in my facial hair.

I need to do something ASAP before I lose all my teeth, my hair, my facial hair and body hair.

I'm thinking of starting thyroid supplementation again. It ended up in total disaster last time I tried (back in 2018), but maybe my metabolism and nutrient status is better now? Maybe I should start on the lowest dose possible, increasing the dosage reeeeally reeeeally slowly?

 

[Ben.]

Not sure what is happening, but my eyebrows are now getting visibly thinner and thinner every day, and my teeth hurts more than ever. I'm getting bald spots in my facial hair.

I need to do something ASAP before I lose all my teeth, my hair, my facial hair and body hair.

I'm thinking of starting thyroid supplementation again. It ended up in total disaster last time I tried (back in 2018), but maybe my metabolism and nutrient status is better now? Maybe I should start on the lowest dose possible, increasing the dosage reeeeally reeeeally slowly?

It saddense me so much that you experience this. i was dealing with that fear last year but also whenever symptoms flare up again or if a look in the mirror that shows me everything that is wrong with my health ... i know how much distress its causing ...

I want to say go see a doctor but ... as i've experienced it, even if you are visibly dying, have blood in the stool, entire mouth coated whitish, loose your eye sight, hair loss, tinnitus etc .. they don't realy feel urged to do ... anything realy ... "medical science" is a chaotic mess of contradicting studies and the practioneers are working based on what they are legaly allowed to do and what the people in charge deemed as "scientifically proven" ... medical professionals my **** ... people are dying and loosing life quality to the point of not being able to function trough the day or let alone digest their damn food properly ...

Peating or other health approaches not helping causes immense fear and hopelesness ... at some point one has either tried everything or simply ran out of money to do so ...

Please hang in there, what happened 2018 when it became a total disaster?

 

[BearWithMe]

It saddense me so much that you experience this. i was dealing with that fear last year but also whenever symptoms flare up again or if a look in the mirror that shows me everything that is wrong with my health ... i know how much distress its causing ...

I want to say go see a doctor but ... as i've experienced it, even if you are visibly dying, have blood in the stool, entire mouth coated whitish, loose your eye sight, hair loss, tinnitus etc .. they don't realy feel urged to do ... anything realy ... "medical science" is a chaotic mess of contradicting studies and the practioneers are working based on what they are legaly allowed to do and what the people in charge deemed as "scientifically proven" ... medical professionals my **** ... people are dying and loosing life quality to the point of not being able to function trough the day or let alone digest their damn food properly ...

Peating or other health approaches not helping causes immense fear and hopelesness ... at some point one has either tried everything or simply ran out of money to do so ...

Please hang in there, what happened 2018 when it became a total disaster?

Wow! This post is so warm and wholesome, it really touched me. You totally made my day. Thank you, Ben!

Your description of medical professionals is very accurate. Not only they are not very helpful with treating chronic conditions, every time I went to the doctor, I ended up with worse health than before. So much unnecessary damage done on my body. Toxic pills, SSRIs, unnecessary surgeries... Yes, I'm not doing that again.

But I'm also not giving up. I'm determined to fight for my health. After reading your post even more than before.

Up until 2018, I have had perfect dental health. Zero cavities in almost 30 years of life. Then I have tried low dose thyroid supplement, and lost 7 teeth in one month. Since then, I have had many fillings, teeth uncontrollably decaying under the fillings, horrible teeth infections, jawbone infections... I have managed to slow it down, but I'm unable to stop it and I'm still losing teeth.

 

[Vileplume]

Not sure what is happening, but my eyebrows are now getting visibly thinner and thinner every day, and my teeth hurts more than ever. I'm getting bald spots in my facial hair.

I need to do something ASAP before I lose all my teeth, my hair, my facial hair and body hair.

I'm thinking of starting thyroid supplementation again. It ended up in total disaster last time I tried (back in 2018), but maybe my metabolism and nutrient status is better now? Maybe I should start on the lowest dose possible, increasing the dosage reeeeally reeeeally slowly?

I know you said you tried all the thyroid protocols imaginable, but just to be sure, did you try T3 only?

 

[beeohbeebeewhy]

Wow! This post is so warm and wholesome, it really touched me. You totally made my day. Thank you, Ben!

Your description of medical professionals is very accurate. Not only they are not very helpful with treating chronic conditions, every time I went to the doctor, I ended up with worse health than before. So much unnecessary damage done on my body. Toxic pills, SSRIs, unnecessary surgeries... Yes, I'm not doing that again.

But I'm also not giving up. I'm determined to fight for my health. After reading your post even more than before.

Up until 2018, I have had perfect dental health. Zero cavities in almost 30 years of life. Then I have tried low dose thyroid supplement, and lost 7 teeth in one month. Since then, I have had many fillings, teeth uncontrollably decaying under the fillings, horrible teeth infections, jawbone infections... I have managed to slow it down, but I'm unable to stop it and I'm still losing teeth.

You might have to go for the hail mary and try a Weston A Price inspired diet, maybe your body will digest/absorb the food more easily. I think I've been suffering from hypothyroidism for a few years and I'm just now getting lab work done for it. If I were you I'd try raw kefir/yogurt, raw honey, a few raw eggs, and maybe coconut oil pulling for dental health, idk if you've tried this already but it seems you're at your wits end :/. Honey/kefir/eggs have some anti microbial + probiotic properties when consumed raw so maybe that could help with your gut/dental problems? Raw honey's pretty acidic too so it helps with digestion, I've also noticed that using coconut oil and raw honey helps with dry skin, and drinking the raw eggs definitely leaves me feeling more hydrated than water or pasteurized milk. I hope you get better soon man, God's speed.

 

[meatbag]

Wow! This post is so warm and wholesome, it really touched me. You totally made my day. Thank you, Ben!

Your description of medical professionals is very accurate. Not only they are not very helpful with treating chronic conditions, every time I went to the doctor, I ended up with worse health than before. So much unnecessary damage done on my body. Toxic pills, SSRIs, unnecessary surgeries... Yes, I'm not doing that again.

But I'm also not giving up. I'm determined to fight for my health. After reading your post even more than before.

Up until 2018, I have had perfect dental health. Zero cavities in almost 30 years of life. Then I have tried low dose thyroid supplement, and lost 7 teeth in one month. Since then, I have had many fillings, teeth uncontrollably decaying under the fillings, horrible teeth infections, jawbone infections... I have managed to slow it down, but I'm unable to stop it and I'm still losing teeth.

Have you ever had a vitamin d and/or PTH (parathyroid) blood test. I think Peat has discussed how tooth loss and hairloss (including body hair) are related to the this.
I know he had mentioned several times that he lost his own teeth when consuming a lot of wheat germ to save money due to the large amount of phosphate

There might be a lot of bad thyroid supplements out there, which one did you try?

Have you been able to track your temperature and pulse rate throughout the day to get an indication of your thyroid function with and without a supplement?Temperature and Pulse Basics & Monthly Log – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Are you able to acquire thiamine HCL? I think that is the preferred version;

"Thiamine also provides Hcl in its regular form, which is also important for acid production. CO2 and Hcl are the biggest factors in good digestion and thiamine Hcl helps with both."
Is Allithiamine Holy Grail? Against The World With Smile?

"Dental abscesses probably originate with digestive problems; a dentist I knew discovered that he no longer had to treat his patients’ periodontal disease surgically when he prescribed laxatives for them. I think the “silent infection” doctrine is mostly an excuse for expensive treatments. The association between jaw abscesses and heart disease is probably by way of a more general problem involving low vitamin D, a low ratio of calcium to phosphate in the diet, intestinal inflammation, and chronic activation of the renin-angiotensin system."
Ray Peat Email Advice Depository

"My first step would be to thoroughly investigate TSH, temperature, vitamin D, and calcium. No, everything is always changing, reflecting your whole situation. Developing baldness is a warning sign of basic metabolic problems, tending toward general circulatory disease."
Ray Peat Email Advice Depository

"RP: it requires your whole course of of health problems. The hair loss tends to coincide with circulatory problems and behind the circulatory problems are metabolic problems. So the things to work on are getting your vitamin D up, your thyroid and progesterone and DHEA up. And your cortisol and the the other stress hormones: aldosterone and parathyroid hormone are very destructive to the hair follicle and blood vessels and and heart. And so if you change your metabolism: lowering parathyroid hormone and aldosterone and and cortisol and all of the stress-related hormones including prolactin that's going to save your circulatory system as well as your hair."
ORN 2020-06-15: Dr. Peat On COVID Testing, Exosomes, EMFs, Gray Hair, Vaccines, Aging

Sorry to hear you're having problems, hopefully you can get things turned around. I also get anxiety occasionally. Recently I heard it discussed the best thing to do is to try and get blood sugar up in these situations and to lower the free fatty acids

 

[BearWithMe]

I know you said you tried all the thyroid protocols imaginable, but just to be sure, did you try T3 only?

Whoa... Actually I did not! Have tried NDT and synthetic T3/T4 combination, and then focused on stimulating my own production of thyroid hormones.

After reading this thread on T3 vs T3/T4, trying T3 alone seems like the right thing to do, I'm going to order Tyronene today. Thank you very much for this @Vileplume !!!