Do We Really Need Much Calcium On A Day-to-day Basis?

[MetabolicTrash]

Just came across this thread earlier and felt like a stab at my initial Ray Peat/Peating diet/beliefs.

Basically the gist is that there's often no real need in having lots of dietary calcium since people might be getting too much built up in their system. This pretty much puts up a wall against the whole Peat guidelines of having a good amount of calcium from (mostly) dairy sources as we generally know here.

What do I make of this? I mean I still follow the Peat guidelines, but when stuff like this pops out you kind of feel unsure. This isn't the only anti-Peat stuff, but I mean it can be tough finding your own system with some of said guidelines when stuff then gets thrown around that contradicts or goes against it.

Many here admit to downing pints/quarts of milk a day for calcium, protein, the saturated fats and etc. I now wonder if maybe we should re-think if this is a good idea to tout for health reasons (i.e., getting 1-2 grams of calcium every single day as many will stand by here as ideal according to Ray).

I want to be as healthy as possible, but it feels like a shot in the dark sometimes with so much different info/opinions/etc. Like the other day -- for example -- I saw a thread mentioning that too much saturated fat can cause issues if not for correcting some kind of deficiency/etc. elsewhere in the process that can become a problem. It seems like keeping up with everything and every possible angle/diet choice/concern for 'X' can be really challenging as new info is found/old info challenged/you name it.

 

[nbznj]

Many here admit to downing quarts of milk a day for calcium, protein, the saturated fats and etc.

All of them being overrated in the context of a western diet and lifestyle and factoring in the dairy industry shenanigans. Safe to say that you’re better off without them.

 

[YourUniverse]

Calcium and Disease: Hypertension, organ calcification, & shock, vs. respiratory energy

 

[MetabolicTrash]

All of them being overrated in the context of a western diet and lifestyle and factoring in the dairy industry shenanigans. Safe to say that you’re better off without them.

Actually I was inclined to believe that it stems from Ray and his support of saturated fats and calcium intake, as he mentions high calcium supposedly not "building up," which is the opposite of what Robert Thompson seems to be asserting in his book.

@jamies33 I know of that. The whole argument is that this guy is claiming otherwise. It can be hard deciding who to trust more sometimes when both of the people are experienced scientists -- and both could make fair points in some areas/contradicting views as well. Both Ray and Robert can be right in opposing ways/different circumstances -- that's where the confusion lies with only putting all/most of your faith/diet guidelines/etc. in one basket/source when there are many others.

I mean clearly I'm still leaning more toward Ray Peat, but not disregarding any other input/possibilities/concerns as that may not be wise.

 

[ExCarniv]

Idk who is that Thompson bloke, I believe calcium is necessary and most important thing, Calcium to Phosphate ratio is even more important, a high Phos to Ca ratio is inflammatory and since I reduced the the red meat intake and increased cheese, I feel overall better, so I trust Peat on that.

 

[Cirion]

Experiment and decide for yourself. I no longer trust 'experts', I only trust my own experimentation.

With that said, my personal experimentation has shown the upper limits of calcium (For me at least) are 1-1.5 gram and going too far above 1.5-2 gram actually lowers my metabolic rate.

Similarly, my experiments have shown that my upper limit of phosphorus is around 1 gram. Regardless of Ca:P ratio.

 

[lampofred]

Calcium keeps you from burning energy you don't have by reducing stress. Too much phosphate relative to calcium gives you a disorderly energy that burns through your reserves, and will probably in chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, arthritis in the long-run.

 

[ExCarniv]

Experiment and decide for yourself. I no longer trust 'experts', I only trust my own experimentation.

With that said, my personal experimentation has shown the upper limits of calcium (For me at least) are 1-1.5 gram and going too far above 1.5-2 gram actually lowers my metabolic rate.

Similarly, my experiments have shown that my upper limit of phosphorus is around 1 gram. Regardless of Ca:P ratio.

Same for me, 1g most days and 1.5g tops, just a cup of milk and a couple blocks of cheese, Phosphorus I have been tracking lately and most days around 1.5g.

Before Peat I was on 3g of Phos and 500mg of Cal, smh I know now why I felt like ***t and can't even sleep more than 1 straight hour.

 

[MetabolicTrash]

I try and get at least ~1 gram a day, but have no real way (other than testing) to see if I have too much calcium or not. It's not like I can tap in to my body and ask it if every little thing is normal, below, above, etc. -- or even if you can always assure something is "normal" anyways from the bigger picture.

I don't feel horrible if I go below 1 gram or anything (even factoring in phosphorus most likely) -- but I always get at least some every day so it's not like I've deprived myself of it just to see the lower bounds of it overall or even just by itself. I don't think it'd be a good idea to try that, i.e., just going lower on everything until you feel a negative change in some way to know your ideal point of keeping things. If I did that I'd have to do it with everything and that becomes too extreme/infeasible.

In short, the whole idea of "experimenting on myself" is not good if it just brings more stress in the process and may not even be very reliable. I eat various different things + can't tell if what I ate is always directly affecting me vs. any general stress from another reason + any chain reaction kind of effect either that I couldn't directly attribute to only one thing. I've had dark chocolate sometimes and felt bad -- other times I've had it and felt perfectly fine. I can't rely on this kind of info to determine tolerance/ranges/etc. if it can vary/have no perfect way of knowing. Maybe if it's a deliberate, extreme reaction -- subtle things go unnoticed much more/are indeterminate.

Plus I come from a high PUFA background and never felt super ill or anything while on it, so it isn't like I can trust my own instincts here if I "felt fine" on 30+g of PUFA a day + tons of iron-fortified foods + many other things anti-Peat unless someone argues that it wouldn't matter either way when it comes to health Peating or the opposite.

You also have to account for all of the people who say they "feel fine" doing exactly the opposite of what you'd find here until the day they may die. If they weren't getting a signal that something was terribly wrong, it's perfectly logical to say that we can't always necessarily trust our own instincts when it comes to ideal health and such.

EDIT: And now I see that I'm ruminating, which is pointless/not good. I guess relying on tests is probably the best bet.

 

[Braveheart]

"According to the Physician’s Committee for Responsible Medicine, “increases in dairy or total dietary calcium intake (above 400 to 500 mg per day) are not correlated with – or a predictor of – bone mineral density or fracture rate in children or young adults.” That would make 400-500 of both calcium and magnesium the target for many people. Dr. Carolyn Dean, author of The Magnesium Miracle

, claims 6-8mg per kilogram of body weight.

It is my stance that a 1:1 ratio of calcium to magnesium is most likely optimal, with higher levels of magnesium possibly being even better.

• 400-600mg of calcium and magnesium
• 35-50 ng/ml of vitamin D (Sun and 500-5000IU depending on your level)
• K2 from the diet or supplementation
• Boron and silica from mineral water and diet"

How Much Calcium, Magnesium and Vitamin D Should You Take? | TheHealthBeat.com

Could We Be Having Too Much Calcium? Calcium : Magnesium Balance Discussion

 

[Sativa]

A pharmacological perspective - dietary calcium acts as an NMDA agonist aka 'glutamate activating', and also stimulates the cannabinoid system.

 

[redsun]

Just came across this thread earlier and felt like a stab at my initial Ray Peat/Peating diet/beliefs.

Basically the gist is that there's often no real need in having lots of dietary calcium since people might be getting too much built up in their system. This pretty much puts up a wall against the whole Peat guidelines of having a good amount of calcium from (mostly) dairy sources as we generally know here.

What do I make of this? I mean I still follow the Peat guidelines, but when stuff like this pops out you kind of feel unsure. This isn't the only anti-Peat stuff, but I mean it can be tough finding your own system with some of said guidelines when stuff then gets thrown around that contradicts or goes against it.

Many here admit to downing pints/quarts of milk a day for calcium, protein, the saturated fats and etc. I now wonder if maybe we should re-think if this is a good idea to tout for health reasons (i.e., getting 1-2 grams of calcium every single day as many will stand by here as ideal according to Ray).

I want to be as healthy as possible, but it feels like a shot in the dark sometimes with so much different info/opinions/etc. Like the other day -- for example -- I saw a thread mentioning that too much saturated fat can cause issues if not for correcting some kind of deficiency/etc. elsewhere in the process that can become a problem. It seems like keeping up with everything and every possible angle/diet choice/concern for 'X' can be really challenging as new info is found/old info challenged/you name it.

In my carnivore days when I gained a lot of my height as a teen, I largely attribute that to high protein intake among other things. Without knowing I followed one of Peat's prime principles which was a very close calcium to phosphorus ratio despite doing carnivore. I had minimum 3 cups of full fat milk a day along with over 6 ounces of high quality cheese like gouda along with a scarce other source of calcium like eggs. Despite intake of steaks, chicken, salami, when I try to tap into cronometer a day of eating I would usually have I end up with somewhat close Ca:P ratio. I ended with 2g calcium and 2g+ phosphorus(probably more depending on what I ate).

Insanely high amounts of the human body's most abundant minerals, and I was in very good health. I would argue once you get calcium beyond a certain amount, say 2g in my case, phosphorus is not a concern. Actually, I would go as far as to say phosphorus should be also in high amounts in conjunction with calcium as well as in any case where one wants to raise metabolism. If you want more ATP, you need more phosphorus. After all, phosphorus is a necessary part of ATP, unlike calcium.

I don't know how many people actually make the realization that dairy is actually the greatest source of phosphorus you can have in the diet. Its higher then organs, muscle meat, seafood... but it comes with tons of calcium. Milk would quickly become the opposite of an energizing food if its phosphorus was too low.

Those who don't include dairy(for good reasons such as intolerance) end up reducing phosphorus intake which along with calcium is a main component necessary for increasing energy(ATP). I would garner a guess having generous amounts of the human body's two most abundant minerals improves health drastically. Even in this instant, we have large amounts of calcium and phosphorus molecules working in synergy inside us to provide and properly use ATP to keep us alive. They are the two busiest bees you could say.

 

[Sativa]

...2 OTC salts with relevant properties re Ca:P balance:
• Calcium acetate - binds & removes Phosphate
• Potassium bicarbonate reduces Calcium excretion aka loss.

• Calcium acetate is used to control phosphate levels to keep them from getting too high in people with kidney failure.
• KHCO3 induced a twofold greater reduction in urine calcium excretion
• ...administration of 60 mmol/d of KHCO3 to healthy adults reduced urinary calcium excretion by 0.9 mmol/d and caused calcium balance to become equivalently more positive.

—
Here's some further insight into Calcium, the glutamate system & interactions with prolactin & cortisol...

Abstract
N-methyl D-aspartate (NMDA)-antagonists decrease neurotoxicity by inhibiting Ca2+ influx which is of interest for the treatment of acute cerebrovascular insults and chronic neurodegenerative disorders.
...
As prolactin and cortisol liberation is in part influenced through NMDA-receptors we investigated whether the elevation of prolactin or cortisol plasma levels is a class effect of NMDA-antagonists ...
Ketamine, memantine or placebo were infused over 60 min.
Ketamine increased serum prolactin and cortisol levels (p < 0.001), whereas memantine and placebo did not affect hormone levels.

btw, for additional context, Magnésium also has ''NMDA antagonist" properties, as does Theanine.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Dr. Peat has made the case, convincingly to me, that Ca levels should exceed phosphorus levels on an ongoing basis. It’s a long term thing. But I try to get 2g to 3g of calcium every day. That way I can eat muscle meat or some bread without feeling like I’m messing myself up.

I just had an egg, and I added some cheese. I think if you have dairy products it’s far easier. Without dairy products you would have to supplement in most cases.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I have a friend whose father needed a replacement heart valve due to calcification.

Of course, calcium levels in his blood are high.

The stupid doctors restrict his calcium because of the high blood levels.

Doctors are idiots.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

A pharmacological perspective - dietary calcium acts as an NMDA agonist aka 'glutamate activating', and also stimulates the cannabinoid system.

What would the implications of this be?

 

[postman]

I've had great benefit from taking calcium. Calmer mind, less water retention, warmer body temperature. It only works if you have enough vitamin K, when I took it without also taking vitamin K it made me feel awful.

 

[redsun]

Have you listened to the recent interview with Ray Peat on oneradionetwork?
He was asked about the carnivore diet and said that it can be quite good if it's combined with dairy products.
A couple of years ago when I used to drink 2+l of milk daily, ( I'm 43kg and 153cm) I developed very painful arthritis in three of my fingers. I couldn't even knock on doors.
A few months ago, I excluded dairy products and all the arthritic pain was gone.
I reintroduced milk recently though.
I was told that probably because of my low Co2 levels and high nitric oxide levels, along with a hypothyroid condition, my body places calcium into soft tissues, hence the pain.

No I havent. I will look into it thanks.

Calcium is usually supposed to come with fat solubles especially K2. I think raw grass fed milk would not have this same issue or if your diet also included k2 sources like aged cheese and pastured eggs. I don't see any sense in drinking that much milk a day anyway which is about 8 cups. 1g calcium a day is good unless you are really trying to go "full peat" but even then cheese should play a big part too to avoid too much liquids. I had 3 cups of milk or so when I did carnivore and quite a bit of cheese to get me to 2g. Its prob better that way when you consider liquids as most cannot tolerate the amount of liquids.

 

[Sativa]

A pharmacological perspective - dietary calcium acts as an NMDA agonist aka 'glutamate activating', and also stimulates the cannabinoid system.

What would the implications of this be?

anything that activates the glutamate system will contribute an excitatory effect, MSG is a typical pro-glutamate agonist aka activator.
To much MSG = unpleasant overstimulation, probably a headache.

The opposite is antagonism aka blockers. eg, Magnesium, Ketamine, act as 'nmda antagonists' contributing disassociation, relaxation and a calming of brain neurotransmission.

anything pro-cannabinoid will contribute typical cannabinoid effects, relating to CB1 'receptor' being present on GABA neurons... and also glutamate ones iirc. Cannabinoids (including our naturally produced endocannabinoids made from fats) have sedative/calming effects.

Note that continued use of a blocker aka antagonist, leads to a direct normal homeostatic response of upregulating the 'receptor system' in question.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Listen to Dr. Peat's interviews or read some of his past newsletters.

Higher phosphorus than calcium in the diet over time increases parathyroid hormone which increases inflammatory responses including aldosterone.

The calcium leaches from the bones into soft tissues and blood sera.

If you add calcium to the diet, along with adequate D3 and K2 MK4 (I have found K2 MK7 useless) your parathyroid will come down. It takes place over weeks, not hours.

The calcium in the blood will decline.

The solution if you have high calcium in the blood is higher dietary calcium in proportion to phosphorus.