Could We Be Having Too Much Calcium? Calcium : Magnesium Balance Discussion

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Aside from mechanical ways like breathing less, moving to a high altitude location, or supplementing thyroid (which doesn't even work for me because I have low cholesterol), I think the only way to increase CO2 is PUFA depletion...

I think there is something special about honey that works to increase CO2 as well, but I'm not sure exactly what it could be because Dr. Peat doesn't distinguish honey from ordinary sugar. But IMO there is something special about honey...

Do you think it's because the carbs in honey are mostly monosaccharides instead of disaccharides? Some people have reported success using simple syrup instead of white sugar.

 

[stargazer1111]

Hey I was wondering if anyone had come across the idea of us having too much calcium, in the sense of the calcium : magnesium ratio. Here's one dude's presentation on it, and while it's not the greatest talk imo (and at times gets preachy), it hits the marks on some interesting points I haven't heard anyone address:

No need to watch the talk, but his slides reference some interesting studies that I think should be addressed by high calcium advocates.

Check this out:

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Is this not problematic, that modern magnesium intake is so low, and the Ca : Mg ratio continues to climb? I bet the main reason Mg is increasing at all is from extra calories.

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Not saying I'm jumping on board any particular conspiracy theories. But at least arguments are backed by sources. And even from what I've read on Peat forum here, soft tissue calcification seems to be a massive driver of many ailments, including hot topic issues like male hair loss.

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Now we can't just buy the "naturalistic" argument on face value. Lots of things were different and more "natural" thousands of years ago, it certainly didn't mean they favored better human overall health and well-being. But in the case of certain chronic diseases that have only naturally risen up (and in such a quick time frame to suggest environmental factors over genetic, e.g. obesity, diabetes, hair loss, ...), maybe it's worth thinking about the nutritional and mineral environments in which our bodies evolved.

Anyways, thought it would be a fascinating topic for the Peat forum because high calcium is certainly advocated, and I haven't heard much about balancing this with Mg. How is a typical Peat diet balanced in Ca : Mg anyways? Do you guys think it matters much in the first place?

Cheers

One of the strangest things about my body is that I seem to need excessive amounts of calcium. I have some hypotheses as to why which I will get to.

But, what I have noticed is that all calcium antagonists make me very ill if I'm not getting exorbitant amounts of calcium to go along with them. Vitamin K2 and magnesium both make me sick without large amounts of calcium. I remember taking vitamin K2 a few years ago without much calcium and I felt like I had severe low blood pressure and felt very weak, couldn't get out of bed. I developed severe pain in the center of my back and it felt like bone pain.

Magnesium makes me extremely fatigued if I take it in the morning or afternoon. However, if I take it at night, I feel wired all night and can't sleep. I can only tolerate about 500 mg of magnesium per 2000-2500mg of calcium consumed per day. Anything more makes me feel similar to how vitamin K2 makes me feel.

One of the signs of hypocalcemia is parasthesia. In parasthesia, you essentially lose circulation and nerve function in a peripheral tissue, most commonly the finger tips or toes. It can last for quite a while until it randomly reverses itself. When I was eating a lower calcium diet (on the order of 400 mg per day max), I would get these parasthesias frequently.

Another symptom I experience on low calcium diets or with calcium antagonists is the visual migraine. In a visual migraine, a lightning bolt shape appears in the middle of your field of vision and begins to spread out and become larger as it takes up more of your field of vision. The first time it happened I freaked out thinking I was going blind. It lasts 20-30 minutes and then disappears.

I am also intolerant to vitamin A which can act as a calcium antagonist in some contexts, but that is a much more complicated story that involves a course of accutane when I was 15 and a vitamin A overdose from a few years ago which have forced me to eat a near zero-vitamin A diet for several years now.

All of the above symptoms are completely eliminated by getting large amounts of calcium, at least 1000mg per day but I feel best on 2000-2500mg per day (mostly from milk).

As to my hypotheses explaining why I need so much calcium. my body makes about 3 times the amount of oxalate that an average person does which predisposes me to kidney stones (I passed a kidney stone at the age of 23). Oxalate binds to calcium, rendering it unavailable for use by the body. Therefore, I think I need very large amounts of calcium to overcome the amount of lost calcium due to oxalate binding.

 

[stargazer1111]

Am almost done reading Death by Calcium by Dr. Thomas Levy. He writes that high calcium correlates with high cancer, CVD, and death from all causes. Especially bad is milk with vitamin D because the D increases calcium absorption. Supplemental magnesium (he recommends glycinate), C, K2, and D without calcium are important. In my opinion he refutes "gallon of milk a day" Peatarianism. Peat's evidence and arguments on PUFAs, estrogen, thyroid, aspirin, iron, etc. still stand tho. No more milk for me, cream and butter okay tho.

Dr. Levy is a joke in the biomedical science community. I know scientists who have sat in on his talks personally and everybody in the room just laughed at him because much of the research he talks about does not say what he claims it does.

He completely ignores oxalate metabolism with both vitamin C and calcium. Vitamin C is partially metabolized into oxalate which is a poison. Antifreeze is deadly because it's converted by the body into oxalate. He also ignores oxalates when it comes to calcium. Your calcium needs increase depending on your oxalate load. Many people produce too much oxalate and need much more calcium because of it. His 200-300 mg RDA is dangerous, especially for people like me who produce so much oxalate.

 

[Kunstruct]

Does he know that calcium is a mineral also? Hard to take a professional serious when they talk like that.

Calcium is a metal, like Magensium is also.
Do you need need talc? topaz? Gypsum? Those are minerals.
But yeah they mean minerals as a substitute term for elements and for some reasons everyone avoid labeling many of these elements as being metals most of them, which sodium is also for example.

 

[Kunstruct]

He completely ignores oxalate metabolism with both vitamin C and calcium. Vitamin C is partially metabolized into oxalate which is a poison. Antifreeze is deadly because it's converted by the body into oxalate. He also ignores oxalates when it comes to calcium. Your calcium needs increase depending on your oxalate load. Many people produce too much oxalate and need much more calcium because of it. His 200-300 mg RDA is dangerous, especially for people like me who produce so much oxalate.

What do you think about using large amounts of Vit C daily? like 100g to 200g(not mg)?

 

[stargazer1111]

What do you think about using large amount of Vit C daily? like 100g to 200g(not mg)?

I used to be in favor of this, but I am no longer in favor of it. I see too many stories of people reacting negatively.

I can't tolerate more than 500 mg per day before I feel sick. It exacerbated the symptoms from my vitamin A overdose (probably due to excessive reduction since both vitamin A and vitamin C are antioxidants). I also can't tolerate vitamin E supplements because they cause similar issues.

I forgot to mention that some of the symptoms I see with vitamin K2 and magnesium also occur with vitamin C, especially if I don't get enough calcium.

 

[Kunstruct]

I used to be in favor of this, but I am no longer in favor of it. I see too many stories of people reacting negatively.

I can't tolerate more than 500 mg per day before I feel sick. It exacerbated the symptoms from my vitamin A overdose (probably due to excessive reduction since both vitamin A and vitamin C are antioxidants). I also can't tolerate vitamin E supplements because they cause similar issues.

I forgot to mention that some of the symptoms I see with vitamin K2 and magnesium also occur with vitamin C, especially if I don't get enough calcium.

You were in favor of 100grams to 200grams per day before but you are having issues with 500mg (0.5grams) per day, is this correct?

 

[stargazer1111]

You were in favor of 100grams to 200grams per day before but you are having issues with 500mg (0.5grams) per day, is this correct?

I was in favor of bowel tolerance levels which differs between people. But, I no longer believe this.

The evidence shows that the body actually saturates before you develop diarrhea. Just because the vitamin C is absorbed and not excreted in the bowels does not mean it is being utilized by the body. The more vitamin C y0u consume, the more it is metabolized into oxalate or excreted via the kidneys.

Linus Pauling's hypothesis that we need gram amounts of vitamin C was based on the amount of vitamin C produced by animals who make their own vitamin C. However, when extrapolating from animals to humans (for instance from mice to humans), you have to account for the differences in metabolic rate. Whatever the dose/amount present in mice per kg of body weight should be divided by 12 when attempting to figure out the comparable dose in humans.

Also, humans evolved different metabolic pathways that reduce the need for vitamin C. For instance, humans recycle vitamin C far more than other animals and we produce much more uric acid which takes over some of the functions of vitamin C as a reducing agent (though obviously, elevated uric acid is not desirable because it causes gout).

 

[somuch4food]

As to my hypotheses explaining why I need so much calcium. my body makes about 3 times the amount of oxalate that an average person does which predisposes me to kidney stones (I passed a kidney stone at the age of 23). Oxalate binds to calcium, rendering it unavailable for use by the body. Therefore, I think I need very large amounts of calcium to overcome the amount of lost calcium due to oxalate binding.

How did you find out your body produces 3 times as much oxalate?

 

[stargazer1111]

How did you find out your body produces 3 times as much oxalate?

I had an organic acid panel done when I passed my kidney stone because the doctor was concerned since I was so young. It showed oxalate levels that are about 3 times the normal level and I also had oxalate urine levels tested later when I started passing blood while eating foods high in oxalate (hemp seeds, sesame seeds mostly).

At the time of my kidney stone, I was eating an all-meat ketogenic diet so I was not consuming any oxalates at all. Most of the oxalates I excreted at that time were endogenously produced.

I think the reason I passed blood later was because I was adding the oxalates from hemp and sesame seeds on top of the endogenously produced oxalate which overwhelmed and damaged the kidneys. I literally saw both red fluid blood and red blood clots in my urine at that time. I was naive and stupid and did not understand what was happening (this was before my biochemical/medical training in school).

 

[somuch4food]

I had an organic acid panel done when I passed my kidney stone because the doctor was concerned since I was so young. It showed oxalate levels that are about 3 times the normal level and I also had oxalate urine levels tested later when I started passing blood while eating foods high in oxalate (hemp seeds, sesame seeds mostly).

At the time of my kidney stone, I was eating an all-meat ketogenic diet so I was not consuming any oxalates at all. Most of the oxalates I excreted at that time were endogenously produced.

I think the reason I passed blood later was because I was adding the oxalates from hemp and sesame seeds on top of the endogenously produced oxalate which overwhelmed and damaged the kidneys. I literally saw both red fluid blood and red blood clots in my urine at that time. I was naive and stupid and did not understand what was happening (this was before my biochemical/medical training in school).

Thanks for your quick reply. I always had dairy in my diet naturally, but I'm finding I have trouble with food source oxalates. I was feeling weak when I tried dropping dairy. I would say that most days I'm around 600-800mg of calcium. I will try to up that amount and see if it helps.

One of the signs of hypocalcemia is parasthesia. In parasthesia, you essentially lose circulation and nerve function in a peripheral tissue, most commonly the finger tips or toes. It can last for quite a while until it randomly reverses itself. When I was eating a lower calcium diet (on the order of 400 mg per day max), I would get these parasthesias frequently.

I do get similar symptoms from time to time and seem to have poor circulation in my extremities. I actually lost all sensation in my right big toe at one point, but it didn't last long.

 

[stargazer1111]

Although vitamin K2 causes severe problems when I don't get enough calcium, I do take 200 mcg of MK-7 Vitamin K2 along with the calcium (also 5000 IU vitamin D3) to prevent soft tissue calcification so I do recommend taking the two together.

Your symptoms can be caused by other things too so it's always good to get checked out just in case. But, it is definitely possible you have greater calcium needs and aren't meeting them. I got the same symptoms in my big toe multiple times with low calcium intake. But, since I started drinking 2-2.5 quarts of fat-free milk daily I have had none of these symptoms. Not even once.

I should also mention that foods high in oxalate (spinach, seeds, almonds, cashews) cause severe premature ventricular contractions. I don't know exactly why and other foods can also cause them (particularly certain types of fiber like pectin). So, it's probably not a direct effect of the oxalate on the heart. I suspect oxalates and certain fibers irritate the vagus nerve in the gut which affects the heart rhythm.

 

[Waynish]

Man, I am starting to see a trend in these forums...

- Iron is bad
- Calcium is bad
- Vitamin A is bad
- ?? is bad (whatever the next trend will be)

That's only a surface level investigation.

The real culprits is the bodys' metabolism of iron, of calcium, of vitamin A, etc.

It is true that many people have deranged iron metabolism, calcium metabolism, VA metabolism, etc. I think it is more interesting to find out why the metabolism is compromised. Ray says calcium metabolism can be deranged from excess stress, prolactin, estrogen, lack of CO2... to name a few.

I would agree though that just eating more calcium is not gonna fix the problem unless all the co-factors are also addressed.

Calcium derangement problems can be more readily seen in todays' society too because EMF's directly act on the VGCC (voltage gate calcium channel) letting any excess calcium in the bloodstream wreak more havoc.

Reductionism will always lead to this sort of thing. Same with thinking a specific molecule is bad: cortisol, estrogen, etc. Seems to be too reduced.

 

[tara]

All of the above symptoms are completely eliminated by getting large amounts of calcium, at least 1000mg per day but I feel best on 2000-2500mg per day (mostly from milk).

AIUI, 1000mg isn't particularly large amounts of calcium - it's roughly the standard RDI. 400mg is low. If you've had extended periods on very low calcium, you might have some stores/buffers to rebuild, needing more above this amount, beyond the basic daily requirements?

 

[invictus]

It's high. I felt loose stools when I reached past 1000 mg/day, even when I slowly increased my daily intake. Loose stools. I dialed it down slightly. I was on abot 965 mg magnesium taken as magnesium ascorbate, made from mixing magnesium carbonate and ascorbic acid. Spread over 3 intakes during the day on empty stomach.

By experimenting, I found I could take 1 gm of magnesium powder when mixed in a teaspoon of olive oil. No loose stools, no flatulence or cramping. I also mix my calcium carbonate powder in olive oil, since I don't drink milk and the belief that fat improves the absorption of calcium. My opinion, not based on any studies.

 

[SOMO]

By experimenting, I found I could take 1 gm of magnesium powder when mixed in a teaspoon of olive oil. No loose stools, no flatulence or cramping. I also mix my calcium carbonate powder in olive oil, since I don't drink milk and the belief that fat improves the absorption of calcium. My opinion, not based on any studies.

Actually Calcium forms insoluble salts with Fats/Oils and is excreted in the feces.

The Calcium in dairy is often bound together with Casein and Phosphate and this aids absorption.
I also think the type of calcium in dairy is amorphous, and more biocompatible than calcium supplements.

 

[methylenewhite]

The first time it happened I freaked out thinking I was going blind.

Scared me shitless when I had it first time after taking q10.

As to my hypotheses explaining why I need so much calcium. my body makes about 3 times the amount of oxalate that an average person does which predisposes me to kidney stones (I passed a kidney stone at the age of 23).

You proubably could benefit from oxalate degrading bacteria, they have this kind of probiotics now.

 

[invictus]

Actually Calcium forms insoluble salts with Fats/Oils and is excreted in the feces.

The Calcium in dairy is often bound together with Casein and Phosphate and this aids absorption.
I also think the type of calcium in dairy is amorphous, and more biocompatible than calcium supplements.[/

I do okay with cheese and do eat quite a bit everyday, but no matter how many times I've tried milk, the result is diarrhea and nasal congestion similar to having a cold. I've had issues with milk since I was a child(I'm now 70). In fact, I've never had a time when I wasn't dealing with food sensitivities or pollen allergies. Nothing, period, has ever helped. Focusing on using thyroid to improve metabolism.

 

[stargazer1111]

Am almost done reading Death by Calcium by Dr. Thomas Levy. He writes that high calcium correlates with high cancer, CVD, and death from all causes. Especially bad is milk with vitamin D because the D increases calcium absorption. Supplemental magnesium (he recommends glycinate), C, K2, and D without calcium are important. In my opinion he refutes "gallon of milk a day" Peatarianism. Peat's evidence and arguments on PUFAs, estrogen, thyroid, aspirin, iron, etc. still stand tho. No more milk for me, cream and butter okay tho.

I followed Levy's advice to only get 300-400 mg per day of calcium and got extremely sick doing so. I developed symptoms of hypocalcemia that were exacerbated by vitamin K2 and magnesium. I got extremely weak and dizzy, developed severe bone pain and muscle twitches and eventually started developing parasthesias that were quite frightening. All of this was in addition to visual migraines and blind spots that I had never experienced before (mentioned in previous posts on this thread)

I passed a kidney stone when I was 23 and my dad has issues with oxalates. Given my medical history (organic acid tests mentioned in previous posts) and genetics, I suspect that I have primary hyperoxaluria in which I produce an excessive amount of oxalates compared to most people. Oxalates bind to and precipitate out calcium from the blood, rendering it useless to the body.

I get anywhere from 2000-4500 mg of calcium per day now depending on how much milk I feel like drinking along with about 800 mg magnesium and 200 ug of MK-7 vitamin K2 and 5500 IU of vitamin D3. This combination seems to have me feeling the best. All the symptoms on Levy's low calcium recommendations reversed rather quickly upon ramping the calcium back up to high levels.

I may be an outlier, but I suspect there are a number of people, especially those with hyperoxaluria, who require much larger amounts of calcium than others.

 

[bistecca]

In Geology, some of the most fertile rocks have Ca:Mg ratios around 4:1. In the plant world, optimum ratios of Ca:Mg are somewhere around 4:1. I would bet that consuming animals or dairy which are raised on plants which are raised on soils with that roughly 4:1 ratio of Ca:Mg would be good. I drink water from Italy because the Ca:Mg ratio of the water is in that 4:1 range, which is commonly found around the Mediterranean as a result of the geology. Its magnesium content is also thought to be a contributing factor in longevity of the people in the region.