I have seriously lowered my calcium intake since going low vitamin A. I used to need about 2000mg a day but after starting detoxing from(I had a medically diagnosed hypervitaminosis A for you who are not onboard with the general low A) it I suddenly neither craved or tolerated any supplemental calcium and now average about 200mg. It has made me worried it's too low but my nails and teeth have improved and my serum calcium has been normal and my PTH has been too. Saw a world wide calcium average by nation list and its interesting that nepal and uganda have an average daily intake of less than 150mg ca! I belive too little can be bad but seems it has a lot to do with context. I now Peat favoured high magnesium, low calcium in the beginning of his writing and then changed his views about in the 90's
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youngsinatra
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Thanks for sharing.
When I saw Chris Masterjohn talking about dietary phosphorus and how meat consumption does not cause an increase in PTH in humans, I started to question the necessity for these monstrous amounts of calcium. I think I know no one that consumes 1-2g of calcium a day, my mother included and I had her test her PTH multiple times, it always came back optimal.
Excess dietary phosphate is highly inflammatory regardless of changes in PTH.
Recent publications are showing that excess phosphate can increase inflammation, tissue atrophy, calcification of blood vessels, cancer, dementia, and, in general, the processes of aging.
Edit to add another important sentence from the article above
Increased phosphate decreases mitochondrial energy production (Duan and Karmazyn, 1989), causes lipid peroxidation (Kowaltowski, et al., 1996), and activates inflammation, increasing the processes of tissue atrophy, fibrosis, and cancer.
For about twenty years it has been clear that the metabolic problems that cause calcium to be lost from bones cause calcium to increase in the soft tissues, such as blood vessels. The role of phosphate in forming calcium phosphate crystals had until recently been assumed to be passive, but some specific "mechanistic" effects have been identified. For example, increased phosphate increases the inflammatory cytokine, osteopontin (Fatherazi, et al., 2009), which in bone is known to activate the process of decalcification, and in arteries is involved in calcification processes (Tousoulis, et al., 2012). In the kidneys, phosphate promotes calcification (Bois and Selye, 1956), and osteopontin, by its activation of inflammatory T-cells, is involved in the development of glomerulonephritis, as well as in inflammatory skin reactions (Yu, et al., 1998). High dietary phosphate increases serum osteopontin, as well as serum phosphate and parathyroid hormone, and increases the formation of tumors in skin (Camalier, et al., 2010). Besides the activation of cells and cell systems, phosphate (like other ions with a high ratio of charge to size, including citrate) can activate viruses (Yamanaka, et al., 1995; Gouvea, et al., 2006). Aromatase, the enzyme that synthesizes estrogen, is an enzyme that's sensitive to the concentration of phosphate (Bellino and Holben, 1989).
Recent publications are showing that excess phosphate can increase inflammation, tissue atrophy, calcification of blood vessels, cancer, dementia, and, in general, the processes of aging.
Edit to add another important sentence from the article above
Increased phosphate decreases mitochondrial energy production (Duan and Karmazyn, 1989), causes lipid peroxidation (Kowaltowski, et al., 1996), and activates inflammation, increasing the processes of tissue atrophy, fibrosis, and cancer.
For about twenty years it has been clear that the metabolic problems that cause calcium to be lost from bones cause calcium to increase in the soft tissues, such as blood vessels. The role of phosphate in forming calcium phosphate crystals had until recently been assumed to be passive, but some specific "mechanistic" effects have been identified. For example, increased phosphate increases the inflammatory cytokine, osteopontin (Fatherazi, et al., 2009), which in bone is known to activate the process of decalcification, and in arteries is involved in calcification processes (Tousoulis, et al., 2012). In the kidneys, phosphate promotes calcification (Bois and Selye, 1956), and osteopontin, by its activation of inflammatory T-cells, is involved in the development of glomerulonephritis, as well as in inflammatory skin reactions (Yu, et al., 1998). High dietary phosphate increases serum osteopontin, as well as serum phosphate and parathyroid hormone, and increases the formation of tumors in skin (Camalier, et al., 2010). Besides the activation of cells and cell systems, phosphate (like other ions with a high ratio of charge to size, including citrate) can activate viruses (Yamanaka, et al., 1995; Gouvea, et al., 2006). Aromatase, the enzyme that synthesizes estrogen, is an enzyme that's sensitive to the concentration of phosphate (Bellino and Holben, 1989).
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Phosphate from meat and organs is just as "highly inflammatory" as phosphate from grains? I find that hard to believe,
I didn’t make that distinction in my statement.
If you are eating a tonne of grains you are likely to run into other problems
I wonder about that Chris Masterjohn quote - if that is true it sort of contradicts some of Peats statements I think. I don't know if you know on what he based that?? I know Peat blamed the calcium to phospate ratio in Inuits and while that might be partly true I wonder how other factors including abnormal levels of pufa ingestion affects it, as well as group genetic make up as 10-15% at least of Inuits have the same genetic modification as cats that blocks ketosis. Anyway any extra info on that?
Phosphorus and calcium Chris Masterjohn
I am trying to find how to eat all my micros and vitamins with no supplement, and searching that I found an interview where it is said that phosporus from meat did not affect negatively to calcium an pth hormone. At 256: Chris Masterjohn on Decoding What Your Body Really Needs "Parathyroid...
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Apple
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hypertensives in Japan - I think it is just misclassfication of what they consider hypertension (compared to Americans). Maybe they have a better access to medical service or some other statistical flaws. They are generally thin with low body mass, I doubt they can be simultaneously champions in longevity and hypertensive.
If someone suffers high blood pressure would Ray Peat advise him to consume more salt ? It is better to keep everything in balance.
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Thanks for the link. Read through the thread and all the links there. I don't find any evidence of Chris's statement from the interview though. We only have the observation that lots of groups of people are fine without massive amounts of calcium and also that lots of the calcium exectrated in the urine comes from the meat just eaten not the skeleton. But nothing about meat and PTH at all. I am also on board with there being something in it but I would love to see some actuall reserach both on the amino-acid profile that supposedly helps, and the proclaimed non-raising of pht. I do think it might be true but still. I also note that the amount of calcium Masterjohn thinks we can get away with is "as low as 6-700mg a day which is still 50% above the national average in a traditionally dairy consuming society like Norway, but that is a seperate issuePhosphorus and calcium Chris Masterjohn
I am trying to find how to eat all my micros and vitamins with no supplement, and searching that I found an interview where it is said that phosporus from meat did not affect negatively to calcium an pth hormone. At 256: Chris Masterjohn on Decoding What Your Body Really Needs "Parathyroid...raypeatforum.com
I was thin with low body mass and hypertensive - I'm not so thin now.
Rays work is best read in context - I think salt has been used successfully in certain circumstance to lower bp (not mine). Some people on the forum have had success with this.
EvanHinkle
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I too was hypertensive at a very unreasonable body weight of 165lbs for a 6’ man. At 200lbs I am no longer. I never used salt, (never cooked with it, never added it to my food) until finding Peat’s work about 4-5 years ago. I now salt to taste, often adding 1/2 tsp to a meal.
Interesting. I used to avoid salt too. I wonder if long-term salt avoidance has a knock on effect. I didn't know, back then, how dangerous salt restriction was. I used to have low bp.
Dave Clark
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You have to consider also that while they don't suffer from calcification more than any other country, the probable tradeoff is that with the low calcium intake, they would be suffering from osteoporosis later in life.
Is your metabolism good enough that you can say that you're not hypothyroid? Maybe the problem lies in poor metabolism. Poor sugar metabolism begets many downstream issues, which unresolved leaves downstream issues hard to overcome, such as poor acid base balance, tending towards acidosis. Poor acid base balance would make potassium less effective as a regulator or calcium entry into the cell, from which calcification would result over time.
I'm not personally familiar with vitamin A issues, as my experience with Vitamin A has been very favorable. Since I began taking liver weekly, I have found ditching my bifocals, a result of how inconvenient it was to use them (not because my vision had improved), to coincide with the improvement of my vision (as a result of weekly liver intake) such that I now drive easily without glasses and can also read text from the cellphone with my bare eyes. It is also probable that it helped that I took therapeutic dosing of 800 mg/day of magnesium for a year, in order to build my magnesium stores, and continued after with eating well-cooked green leaves to maintain my magnesium (and calcium) stores.
I don't know many people who have walked the talk as far as giving magnesium the importance I have. Many, because they just had to take a test to ensure they are magnesium deficient, and don't take a test. simply let magnesium sufficiency slide into low priority status, as they went ahead to fix issues (downstream of magnesium deficiency) that are very dependent on having magnesium sufficiency. They may even think that since no test confirms magnesium deficiency, then they cross their fingers and assume they are magnesium sufficient. And they are foolish in thinking that way. I myself can look back all the way into what I've eaten all the way to my infancy, and can find no reason at all to think that I have, through my lifetime of eating, been able to eat enough foods that are building me to magnesium sufficiency. So I made the assumption then that I am deficient in it, and without needing a test (most are useless anyway, and the useful one is so expensive, and a DIY one is bothersome to say the least) I went ahead and did a year of therapeutic magnesium dosing. In the off chance I was wrong, I wouldn't be harmed even though magnesium toxicity can be fatal, because the gut will sense I have to much magnesium, and will cause me to excrete the excess with diarrhea. As long as I'm doing my supplementation orally, the gut will protect me from magnesium overdose and toxicity. However, I don't get this protection if I were to take magnesium intravenously or by injection.
It's worth knowing the importance of magnesium. Without adequate magnesium stores, you won't be able to build up enough potassium stores no matter how much potassium intake. Without enough magnesium, you won't get much energy as ATP binds with magnesium to form a complex needed to be used for energy production. And as far as Vitamin A is concerned, it uses up magnesium so if you have little magnesium, where does the vitamin A go if unused?
If you're low in magnesium, I don't think taking Calcium/Magnesium supplements is enough. It's actually inane. It doesn't get you to magnesium sufficiency at all.
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I wont turn this into a vitamin A thread but at least i can tell you that in my case it wasnt related to magnesium as I took almost 800mg a day for several years. I agree it's and important mineral and in the 80's /90's I think it was, Peat was more focused on magnesium then calcium. I understand it that he deemed the anti-stress effects of calcium to be more important thoughfor me even though I percived benefits of calcium earlier (real or imagined I at least felt so), I never go the reduction in stress - that was more noticeable on magnesium sups. I don't do them now but I keep my magnesium higher then calcium
Im sorry for doubleposting wasnt allowed to edit: You were right about the osteoporosis
From: The global prevalence of osteoporosis in the world: a comprehensive systematic review and meta-analysis - Journal of Orthopaedic Surgery and Research
"According to a systematic and meta-analysis study in China, the prevalence of osteoporosis from 2003 to October 2015 was reported to be 15.33% in men and 25.41% in women. It can be concluded that the overall prevalence of osteoporosis was 20% [94].
In a study, the prevalence of osteoporosis was assessed in several industrialized countries (USA, Canada, five European countries, Australia, and Japan) and people aged 50 and over. The prevalence of osteoporosis in the spine or hip was reported as follows: 26.3% in Japan, 21% in the USA, 14.3% in Germany, 9.9% in France, 9.7% in Italy, 7.8% in the United Kingdom, 6.3% in Spain, 2.6% in Canada, and 2% in Australia. Overall, the number of people with osteoporosis is estimated at 49 million [95].
In 2018, a systematic review and meta-analysis based on the World Health Organization (WHO) diagnostic criteria were conducted in the eastern Mediterranean: the study was conducted between 2000 and 2017 without any language restrictions; the prevalence of osteoporosis was 24.4%; the prevalence of osteoporosis is 24.4% in women and 20.5% in men [96]."
This of course does not take into account wether Vitamin A affects the need for calcium to reference it to the question previously discussed .
it should also be noted that ray reccomended high calcium diets not only to keep PTH low, but also because calcium stimulates the metabolic rate. calcium is wasted/displaced by stress, so its possible to keep PTH low on low calcium diets if stress is kept low, however the metabolic rate is likely lower so glucose and minerals are not used up quickly, which can increase stress tolerance, but a low metabolic rate has drawbacks. high meat diets also have problems with excess iron not just phosphate, and calcium protects from that too
I don't know how the serum phosphorus affects PTH, but I know from Peat that serum calcium greatly affects PTH production because low serum calcium would cause PTH to rise, so it signals osteoclasts to release calcium from bones to the bloodstream.
So how is it that you are talking meat consumption and relating it to PTH production. Meat is high in phosphate and low in calcium. Are you saying that CMJ thinks because meat consumption does not raise PTH, and because meat is high in phosphate, that high phosphate does not increase PTH, there is reason to think low calcium does not raise PTH (why you think so I can only speculate but is it because you think what calcium does is antagonistic to what phosphate does?)
Your saying so is so anti-Peat and I'm not even sure if you're not misrepresenting CMJ. If I were to contradict your positions on many things, I would have to be posting more and debate you on what you state on many of your posts. But I refrain from it because it would take so much time, and because hardly anyone corrects you either. But there doesn't seem enough warm bodies here willing to correct anyone who posts ideas are not just off the Peat-beaten trail, but is whimsical and misleading.
And the amounts of calcium whom Peat recommends whom you refer to as monstrous, are only based on your questionable ideas on calcium.
And when you talk of normal serum calcium as whst your mother has, I have to think also that you are basing normal off the medical standard of care range, which I deem unreliable.
For readers here, I would advise you to keep reading on Peat's writing, especially the recent ones, as he would explain clearly his ideas on calcium. And I encourage you to connect the dots yourself, than let posters in the forum, including myself, do it for you. In the long run, it pays off having a well-grounded base of facts to make you decide how to improve your health.
I have to ask what your refer to as "it" not being to related, as there are many things I discussed in my post that relate them to magnesium'
Thanks for confirming my statement that probably the Japanese are more pone to osteoporosis in later years as a result of a low-calcium lifestyle.
I think doctors like Carolyn Dean and Tom Levy don't realize the extent of which they cause their patients to end up with osteoporosis when they tell people to lower calcium intake to prevent calcification. They are right only insofar as seeing the more immediate effects of preventing or reducing calcification, but still wrong when in the long run their recommendation lead people to suffer from osteoporosis in later years.
Ray Peat's approach of stressing optimal sugar metabolism is the right approach, as calcification does not occur, even with large amounts of calcium intake, when optimal metabolism create stress-free and homeostatic conditions that among other thing prevent calcification while allowing the body structure to be strengthened by calcium in the bones, and thus prevent osteoporosis in later years.
But Ray's approach is more complicated to explain to people, and when people like simple approaches, they pay the price in eventually having to deal with complicated health issues and even more complicated sollutions from the doctors who cater to simple solutions in the form of magic bullets.
youngsinatra
Member
Some people are sensitive to calcium. Me for example, I get irritable, cold hands, my muscle fibers begin to twitch, get painful anal cramps (lmao I know) and I get low-grade anxiety when I increase my calcium intake.
I think calcium somehow triggers an increase in intracellular calcium levels for me. Vitamin D does the same thing for me, but just 10x worse.
Supplemental magnesium does reverse this issue, but once I increase my calcium again (even in the presence of enough or even high amounts of magnesium) I get the same detrimental effects.
I think my hypervitaminosis A contributes to the problem by increasing bone resorption and thus circulating calcium (independent of PTH, 1,25D) and causing magnesium depletion and slowing down my thyroid function, which is necessary to have magnesium retention (keeping sodium/calcium out of the cell and intracellular potassium high)
I just recently started taking thyroid to help my liver function (biliary vitamin A excretion) and magnesium retention and so far I‘m definitely feeling better. The calcium problem still has not been fixed, but hopefully it will in the future.
So I‘m not completely aligned with Ray, but I still think he is right that thyroid function is key to have good magnesium retention and keeping intracellular calcium low. But I think a low thyroid person might not benefit so much from a high calcium diet when he still wastes a lot of magnesium and the calcium might overexcite the cell.
I think calcium somehow triggers an increase in intracellular calcium levels for me. Vitamin D does the same thing for me, but just 10x worse.
Supplemental magnesium does reverse this issue, but once I increase my calcium again (even in the presence of enough or even high amounts of magnesium) I get the same detrimental effects.
I think my hypervitaminosis A contributes to the problem by increasing bone resorption and thus circulating calcium (independent of PTH, 1,25D) and causing magnesium depletion and slowing down my thyroid function, which is necessary to have magnesium retention (keeping sodium/calcium out of the cell and intracellular potassium high)
I just recently started taking thyroid to help my liver function (biliary vitamin A excretion) and magnesium retention and so far I‘m definitely feeling better. The calcium problem still has not been fixed, but hopefully it will in the future.
So I‘m not completely aligned with Ray, but I still think he is right that thyroid function is key to have good magnesium retention and keeping intracellular calcium low. But I think a low thyroid person might not benefit so much from a high calcium diet when he still wastes a lot of magnesium and the calcium might overexcite the cell.
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