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Could We Be Having Too Much Calcium? Calcium : Magnesium Balance Discussion

Discussion in 'Ray Peat Topics' started by AnonE, Dec 31, 2018.

  1. AnonE

    AnonE Member

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    Hey I was wondering if anyone had come across the idea of us having too much calcium, in the sense of the calcium : magnesium ratio. Here's one dude's presentation on it, and while it's not the greatest talk imo (and at times gets preachy), it hits the marks on some interesting points I haven't heard anyone address:

    No need to watch the talk, but his slides reference some interesting studies that I think should be addressed by high calcium advocates.

    Check this out:

    upload_2018-12-31_1-30-57.png

    View attachment 11698

    Is this not problematic, that modern magnesium intake is so low, and the Ca : Mg ratio continues to climb? I bet the main reason Mg is increasing at all is from extra calories.

    upload_2018-12-31_1-32-5.png

    Not saying I'm jumping on board any particular conspiracy theories. But at least arguments are backed by sources. And even from what I've read on Peat forum here, soft tissue calcification seems to be a massive driver of many ailments, including hot topic issues like male hair loss.

    upload_2018-12-31_1-36-8.png

    Now we can't just buy the "naturalistic" argument on face value. Lots of things were different and more "natural" thousands of years ago, it certainly didn't mean they favored better human overall health and well-being. But in the case of certain chronic diseases that have only naturally risen up (and in such a quick time frame to suggest environmental factors over genetic, e.g. obesity, diabetes, hair loss, ...), maybe it's worth thinking about the nutritional and mineral environments in which our bodies evolved.

    Anyways, thought it would be a fascinating topic for the Peat forum because high calcium is certainly advocated, and I haven't heard much about balancing this with Mg. How is a typical Peat diet balanced in Ca : Mg anyways? Do you guys think it matters much in the first place?

    Cheers
     

    Attached Files:

  2. LCohen

    LCohen Member

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    I think the disorders increased not because increasing dietary calcium. The reason is people don't balance it.

    - When your dietary calcium intake is low, your Ca:Mg will start to rise. Calcium content of bones will decrease, blood content will increase.
    - Vitamin K2 plays key role on calcium metabolism. It protects again calcium leakage. Transports calcium from blood to bones.
    - Magnesium is a natural calcium antagonist.

    A moderate calcium intake with high magnesium & k2 intake should be good. Low calcium will paradoxically give you more calcium problems. Just like low salt.
     
  3. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Ray favors a cal mag ratio of 4:1 with around 1600/400 mg of elemental calcium and magnesium daily.

    Magnesium is needed for enzymatic reactions needed to produce energy by the mitochondria. In oxidative metabolism, CO2 is produced. Inside the cell, CO2 turns into carbonic acid, and because it is hydrophilic, it leaves the cell, taking with it calcium and sodium, and water. This keeps calcium from accumulating inside the cell, thus keeping calcification at bay.

    Bicarbonates in the ecf can also be 'borrowed' by the cell, and be used to transport calcium out of the cell using the abovementioned process. Bicarbonates are abundant in an alkaline ecf environment, which is why an acidic environment makes calcification more likely.
     
  4. michael94

    michael94 Member

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  5. OP
    AnonE

    AnonE Member

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    Has anyone had benefits by supplementing and getting their total magnesium above 1g/day?
     
  6. Frankdee20

    Frankdee20 Member

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    One gram is high a dose, I’m sure some need that temporarily.
     
  7. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    It's high. I felt loose stools when I reached past 1000 mg/day, even when I slowly increased my daily intake. Loose stools. I dialed it down slightly. I was on abot 965 mg magnesium taken as magnesium ascorbate, made from mixing magnesium carbonate and ascorbic acid. Spread over 3 intakes during the day on empty stomach.
     
  8. Frankdee20

    Frankdee20 Member

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    What side effects did you notice besides the stool loosening ? That type of dose would strongly inhibit NMDA receptors. Any brain fog ?
     
  9. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    I didn't experience brain fog or anything else other than loose stools, but I'm not easily given so far to having headaches. Nor do I recall having any experience of brain fog, so I'm not a good test case lol

    But I have noticed arrhythmia at times using magnesium and I add potassium and the arrhythmia goes away.
     
  10. Frankdee20

    Frankdee20 Member

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    Yeah, it can mess with the heart rhythm. I always thought it lowers blood pressure and is good for the heart. Maybe I’m wrong
     
  11. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    A few days ago my heart rate took a dive and briefly went lower than 50. It may be the magnesium. Heart rate still not back to my regular high 60s. Maybe I should cease magnesium for a while. But my temperature took a slight dip only from 37C to 36.9 C. I guess you're right.
     
  12. Rafael Lao Wai

    Rafael Lao Wai Member

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    A few weeks ago, I switched from magnesium chloride to magnesium bicarbonate. I always restricted the magnesium chloride to a certain amount( enough to get 400 mg of magnesium from it) because the chloride in it would give me problems when I increased the dosage( kidney heaviness, acidic urine, etc). With magnesium bicarbonate, I don't have these problems, therefore I'm more liberal and usually get between 700 mg and 1000mg of magnesium per day from it. It does soften stools a lot, which for me is great, since I always had constipation, and with this dosage of magnesium, I can have 2 bowel movements per day. Sometimes, even three. My heart rate is still good. Maybe it even increased a little bit( maybe 90 beats per minute).
     
  13. ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

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    I use magnesium carbonate in orange juice and it seems to work very well. No bowel soreness.
     
  14. ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

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    Dr. Peat gets 2000 or 2500mg calcium per day.
     
  15. Richiebogie

    Richiebogie Member

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    Thanks for the informative video @AnonE

    If you want a 1 to 1 ratio of Calcium to Magnesium without supplementing you really need to limit dairy.

    Ray Peat has encouraged milk drinking because he was after a Calcium to Phosphorous ratio around 1 to 1!

    Maybe you can satisfy both ratios by going mostly fruitarian with 50g dark chocolate, less than 200ml milk and no grains, nuts, peas, beans, seafood, fish or meat!
     
  16. Ideonaut

    Ideonaut Member

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    Am almost done reading Death by Calcium by Dr. Thomas Levy. He writes that high calcium correlates with high cancer, CVD, and death from all causes. Especially bad is milk with vitamin D because the D increases calcium absorption. Supplemental magnesium (he recommends glycinate), C, K2, and D without calcium are important. In my opinion he refutes "gallon of milk a day" Peatarianism. Peat's evidence and arguments on PUFAs, estrogen, thyroid, aspirin, iron, etc. still stand tho. No more milk for me, cream and butter okay tho.
     
  17. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    I like Levy, and think he brings up some good points, but I went through his "Death By Calcium" presentation, and was not impressed. He might have brought up some better evidence in his book, however. What points or studies do you think refute Peat's ideas? Here is Peat's core argument for increasing Calcium, which is basically that low dietary calcium is what leads to soft tissue calcification- Calcium and Disease: Hypertension, organ calcification, & shock, vs. respiratory energy

    Also curious what Levy states about K2, prolactin, and PTH.
     
  18. Hans

    Hans Member

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    One guy writes a book about how bad calcium is an the next a book about how good it is (the calcium factor by Robert Barefoot comes to mind). Personally I think there is nothing wrong with calcium and actually very beneficial, and like all nutrients, it should be consumed in conjuction with cofactors and in a balance with other nutrients.
    The body can regulate how much it absorbs and excretes and is quite good to maintaining homeostasis if the metabolism and thyroid is good.
     
  19. LucH

    LucH Member

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    I'd rather bother about the ratio Na / K and sufficiant K2. Vitamin K2 is very under-estimated.

    We need sufficient Vitamin K2 to assimilate calcium. No need for more than 850 mg Ca if you eat homemade and sufficient potassium (K) from vegetables and fruits.

    Vitamin K2: The Missing Link for Bone Health
    http://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1189-vitamine-k2-et-le-paradoxe-du-calcium#12634 (Kate Rheaume-Blue)
    K2’s prime role in bone health is to carboxylate (activate) certain proteins, allowing them to bind calcium. There are several vitamin K2-dependent proteins in bone, of which osteocalcin is the most abundant and best known. It is the main protein involved in the deposition of calcium into bones and teeth. Only once it is activated by vitamin K2 can osteocalcin grab on to calcium and lay it into the bone matrix. Without sufficient vitamin K2 to activate it, osteocalcin remains useless, calcium will not be deposited into the bone and osteoporosis sets in. That is why most of the bone-building benefits of vitamin D are really dependent on K2: vitamin D, assisted by vitamin A, stimulates the production of osteocalcin, and K2 activates it. Once again, fat-soluble nutrients collaborate to achieve optimal health.

    Note: I try to target the following amounts
    Ca 800 mg (600 – 1200)
    Mg 480 mg (350 – 500)
    K 4700 mg (ratio 1/1 to 2/1 with Na)
    Na 2300 – 3000 mg (3 gr Na = 7.5 gr sodium)
     
  20. bzmazu

    bzmazu Member

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
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