Calcium-Magnesium Ratio

[FrankM]

Hey,

since I have around 3g of dietary calcium daily through low fat milk and oranges
I was thinking about the ration of calcium to magnesium for quite some time.

I have even emailed Dr. Peat and received a reply, though a kind of cryptical one which I can`t make sense of.
So I have searched the internet and found some articles which proposed to have a 1:1 ratio of calcium to magnesium.
So that is is very the issues begin:
- I can`t have 3g of magnesium in my diet; in my opinion is ist plain dangerougs to supplement that much
magnesium for different reasons; dietary magnesium in a Peat inspired nutrition is nearly solely based on
coffee ( green leaf broth is an option but not very applicable on a daily basis )
- If I lower dietary calcium by reducing milk I don`t have enough protein
or
I ramp up on shellfish which leads to an overload on zinc and a unfavorable ratio of calcium to phosphor
- If I reduce dietery calcium by reducing milk consumption but have cottage cheese which is low calcium
but high protein I still have more phosphor than calcium in my diet and too much lactic acid since
these days cottage cheese is produced via lactiv acid bacteia ( rinsing the cottage cheese to wash off lactic acid would be an option but still it would lead to too much phosphor in comparison to calcium )
- I I were to replace milk with beef for protein I would ramp up fat intake which may lead to a to high fat intake
( lean beef is not recommended by Peat ) which impairs optimal glucose metabolism ( Randal effect )

So more and more it seems to me that the whole Peat inspired nutrition idea is in many aspects very sound but
the problem seems to be the ration of calcium to magnesium.
Dr. Peat argues that high calcium intake is protective and so on but never ever answers the question of how to balance high calcium intake properly. To me it seems that he is just ignoring that very important aspect since otherwise his dietary construct would fall apart.
Sure I could ignore all that information about having an 1:1 calcium to magnesium intake or at least a 2:1 ratio by arguing that is just mainstream manipulated blablab but wouldn`t that be to dogmatic in order to justify a Peat inspired diet?

Frank

 

[lampofred]

I think he has said you don't need much magnesium if your thyroid is good because you will retain even small intakes really well. He also said milk has magnesium and that coffee is a great source of it as well. OJ and meat as is common knowledge are rich in magnesium.

 

[FrankM]

I think he has said you don't need much magnesium if your thyroid is good because you will retain even small intakes really well. He also said milk has magnesium and that coffee is a great source of it as well. OJ and meat as is common knowledge are rich in magnesium.

True. OJ has a lot of Magnesium but beef has too much iron and is not so much recommended.
I often read the answer ( to different questions ) "If your Thyroid is good you don`t need that or this.... )
Despite of that, I would never reach an 1:1 relationship of calcium to magnesium.
Should I just ignore information like that?
Time to ditch the 2:1 calcium-magnesium ratio

 

[lampofred]

If you have an actual magnesium deficiency then it would be important to increase magnesium intake (and sodium), but when it comes to calcium intake and calcium-to-magnesium ratio, I think in good health you should be able to handle high amounts of calcium with no issue. Most calcium "excess" issues are actually caused by CO2 deficiency (from weak thyroid) not putting the calcium where it needs to go, outside of soft tissue and into bone. In that case limiting/reducing calcium intake is similar to reducing sugar intake if blood glucose is too high instead of focusing on raising insulin sensitivity. It's a band-aid approach that doesn't fix the real problem.

 

[baccheion]

Use a magnesium oil spray. 100 mg elemental from it topically is said to be like 160 mg from diet. Further, the body won't absorb more than it needs (once sufficient).

A 1:1 ratio and RDA guidelines assume nutrients are from food in reasonable serving sizes. At "reasonable serving sizes", magnesium and calcium bioavailability are both 25-30%. How much calcium do you get at a time? What is then the effective amount absorbed (less is absorbed as more is taken at one time)? What then needs to be the magnesium dose to maintain a 1-2:1 ratio?

Recommended dietary amounts of magnesium: Mg RDA

Dietary Reference Intakes for Adequacy: Calcium and Vitamin D - Dietary Reference Intakes for Calcium and Vitamin D - NCBI Bookshelf

 

[FrankM]

If you have an actual magnesium deficiency then it would be important to increase magnesium intake (and sodium), but when it comes to calcium intake and calcium-to-magnesium ratio, I think in good health you should be able to handle high amounts of calcium with no issue. Most calcium "excess" issues are actually caused by CO2 deficiency (from weak thyroid) not putting the calcium where it needs to go, outside of soft tissue and into bone. In that case limiting/reducing calcium intake is similar to reducing sugar intake if blood glucose is too high instead of focusing on raising insulin sensitivity. It's a band-aid approach that doesn't fix the real problem.

Thanks for your valueable input.
Based on body temperature and pulse rate my Thyroid is doing fine.
I feel very good on my Peaty Diet but I am a bit scared that my tissues are calciying....
How would I know if not?

 

[FrankM]

Use a magnesium oil spray. 100 mg elemental from it topically is said to be like 160 mg from diet. Further, the body won't absorb more than it needs (once sufficient).

A 1:1 ratio and RDA guidelines assume nutrients are from food in reasonable serving sizes. At "reasonable serving sizes", magnesium and calcium bioavailability are both 25-30%. How much calcium do you get at a time? What is then the effective amount absorbed (less is absorbed as more is taken at one time)? What then needs to be the magnesium dose to maintain a 1-2:1 ratio?

Recommended dietary amounts of magnesium: Mg RDA

Dietary Reference Intakes for Adequacy: Calcium and Vitamin D - Dietary Reference Intakes for Calcium and Vitamin D - NCBI Bookshelf

I am using Haiduts Magnoil which seems to be very much bioavailble;
nevertheless there are many articles which suggest that too much dietary Calcium is calcifying
soft tissues and arteries even when taken with ample ammounts of K2 and D3.
So how would I know if they are true or just missinformed or just plain wrong or even manipulated?

 

[baccheion]

I am using Haiduts Magnoil which seems to be very much bioavailble;
nevertheless there are many articles which suggest that too much dietary Calcium is calcifying
soft tissues and arteries even when taken with ample ammounts of K2 and D3.
So how would I know if they are true or just missinformed or just plain wrong or even manipulated?

More vitamin D lessens need for calcium. A 10% increase in absorption lowers target from 800s to 600s and a 10% decrease increases it to 1100s.

Actions that clear excess calcium are associated with vitamin A and vitamin K serves as the "activator".

 

[Cirion]

Well, personally for what it is worth I find too much calcium is overkill. I find my peak benefits at 1-1.5 gram calcium. In fact, from my personal database, I find any more than 2 gram of calcium actually starts to damage my metabolism. 3 gram is starting to push it. So I have to agree with Frank that one should be cautious about that much. I've also conclusively found out that too much phosphorus is also bad of course. Moderation of both is key.

Maple syrup is a nice "hack" because it is pretty much the only food that is basically a Ca:P ratio of infinity. Milk actually adds a rather large amount of phosphorus to the diet so with the 3 gram of calcium you're also getting well over 2 grams of phosphorus which is bad. From my data, I find more than 1 gram of phosphorus starts to have negative metabolic effects.

 

[baccheion]

Well, personally for what it is worth I find too much calcium is overkill. I find my peak benefits at 1-1.5 gram calcium. In fact, from my personal database, I find any more than 2 gram of calcium actually starts to damage my metabolism. 3 gram is starting to push it. So I have to agree with Frank that one should be cautious about that much. I've also conclusively found out that too much phosphorus is also bad of course. Moderation of both is key.

Maple syrup is a nice "hack" because it is pretty much the only food that is basically a Ca:P ratio of infinity. Milk actually adds a rather large amount of phosphorus to the diet so with the 3 gram of calcium you're also getting well over 2 grams of phosphorus which is bad. From my data, I find more than 1 gram of phosphorus starts to have negative metabolic effects.

Too much calcium opposes thyroid function IIRC. Iodine protocol documents state more than 2 grams lessens effectiveness (/absorption/uptake?) of iodine.

 

[Cirion]

Calcium opposes thyroid function IIRC. Iodine protocol documents state more than 2 grams lessens effectiveness (/absorption/uptake?) of iodine.

Fascinating!

This is why actual data/experimentation is awesome. I'm literally systematically proving various scientific studies and Ray Peat on many things, sometimes by accident like here. 2 grams is definitely right from my experience.

But this is opposite of what Ray Peat says on calcium. This remains why I will never likely see eye-to-eye with him on calcium. Sure we need it, but not that much.

 

[baccheion]

Fascinating!

This is why actual data/experimentation is awesome. I'm literally systematically proving various scientific studies and Ray Peat on many things, sometimes by accident like here. 2 grams is definitely right from my experience.

But this is opposite of what Ray Peat says on calcium. This remains why I will never likely see eye-to-eye with him on calcium. Sure we need it, but not that much.

How much vitamin D are you taking? What's serum 25(OH)D?

 

[Cirion]

How much vitamin D are you taking? What's serum 25(OH)D?

I haven't tested it in awhile and I stopped taking VD as I'm not convinced VD is a replacement for sunlight. I've megadosed VD in the past and while it brought my serum levels up high, I didn't feel any different. Not like getting actual sunlight. I admit I could do better on sunlight but I try to get at least 15 minutes of sun a day.

 

[lampofred]

Thanks for your valueable input.
Based on body temperature and pulse rate my Thyroid is doing fine.
I feel very good on my Peaty Diet but I am a bit scared that my tissues are calciying....
How would I know if not?

If your thyroid is good, then issues with handling calcium might mean your phosphate is too high. Calcium lowers PTH, but PTH lowers phosphate, so too much calcium might magnify any problems relating to excess phosphate. Thyroid and phosphate usually go hand in hand but I guess if you're coming from a background of eating lots of grains, meats, beans, then you might have excess phosphate even with good thyroid/CO2.

Do you take Vitamin K? That both lowers phosphate and helps to prevent calcification.

I think just going by symptoms, such as blood pressure, muscle stiffness, ringing in ears, etc. would work for knowing whether your calcium is going into bone or soft tissues. Calcium should lower blood pressure if it's being well absorbed but will raise BP by causing calcification if it's not. I used to feel pretty bad when I took calcium/vitamin D when I had worse thyroid/excess phosphate/excess prolactin with ear ringing, mild hair fall, and anxiety, but now calcium makes me feel calm and relaxed.

 

[baccheion]

I haven't tested it in awhile and I stopped taking VD as I'm not convinced VD is a replacement for sunlight. I've megadosed VD in the past and while it brought my serum levels up high, I didn't feel any different. Not like getting actual sunlight. I admit I could do better on sunlight but I try to get at least 15 minutes of sun a day.

Were you magnesium sufficient when dosing D3? How much did you take?

 

[Cirion]

Were you magnesium sufficient when dosing D3? How much did you take?

I was supplementing it every day and back then I used to eat more magnesium rich starch. I did probably take too much D3 (50,000 IU a day lol) like I say it got my serum levels high. I would say I noticed nothing much though either negative or positively from having an above range D3 level.

 

[baccheion]

I was supplementing it every day and back then I used to eat more magnesium rich starch. I did probably take too much D3 (50,000 IU a day lol) like I say it got my serum levels high. I would say I noticed nothing much though either negative or positively from having an above range D3 level.

What was the entire stack? I've been taking 50,000-100,000 IU for 1.5 years now.

 

[FrankM]

If your thyroid is good, then issues with handling calcium might mean your phosphate is too high. Calcium lowers PTH, but PTH lowers phosphate, so too much calcium might magnify any problems relating to excess phosphate. Thyroid and phosphate usually go hand in hand but I guess if you're coming from a background of eating lots of grains, meats, beans, then you might have excess phosphate even with good thyroid/CO2.

Do you take Vitamin K? That both lowers phosphate and helps to prevent calcification.

I think just going by symptoms, such as blood pressure, muscle stiffness, ringing in ears, etc. would work for knowing whether your calcium is going into bone or soft tissues. Calcium should lower blood pressure if it's being well absorbed but will raise BP by causing calcification if it's not. I used to feel pretty bad when I took calcium/vitamin D when I had worse thyroid/excess phosphate/excess prolactin with ear ringing, mild hair fall, and anxiety, but now calcium makes me feel calm and relaxed.

Thanks for your input; very much appreciated.
I don`t know if I have issues handling calcium but I would like to know before my arteries are calcified....
I track my diet via cronometer.com; I always eat more calcium than phosphor.
I am peating for aroung 2 years now, feeling good, blood sugar, blood pressure, energy level, pulse rate, body temperature are quite fine.
My point is, that problems often accumulate silently in the background until they show up massively;
so prevention is key. I am just not sure how to think about all that seemingly credible researchers that say that a 1:1 ration of calcium to magnesium is needed to prevent calcification of soft tissue and cardio-vascular problems.
Are they all so wrong, missinformed, manipulated? Often they are, but dismissing their research from the beginning would imo be the wrong way. Beeing dogmatic about ones point of view doen`t help at all, quite the opposite.

 

[milkboi]

For what it’s worth, I get about 1,2g calcium and 1g phosphorus per day, along with 600-700mg magnesium through diet + 300mg elemental magnesium (carbonate form) so I basically have got the 1-1 ratio you are looking for. I drink some milk (about half a liter) and skyr for calcium, my magnesium comes mostly from strong coffee, OJ, potatoes.

 

[FrankM]

That sounds good.
You prefer Weihenstaphan; just like me!
How much protein do you get and what are your sources?
Do you spread the Mag-Carbonate over the day?
Are you using Epsom Salt?