Is 2000mg calcium REALLY needed?

[Blinkyrocket]

Indians consume a lot of milk... Plus there's some evidence that curcumin has some life-shortening effects.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 24967/full (dna damage, ros, and I think it's estrogenic)

I do like igf-1, it's pretty good for young people but promotes cancer as you get older. a study finds it correlates with social status, I don't know if it's only because it makes people taller and tall people are usually more respected but I like to think there's other aspects to it (cause I'm not gonna grow anymore lol).

about your other post : igf-1 doesn't fluctuate like growth hormone. While igf-1 depends on growth hormone's levels it is also independently promoted by the amino acid methionine and by milk. also by testosterone. Women have higher growth hormone but lower igf-1, suggesting it is more the latter that restrain longevity. There's a misconception that Laron syndrome (protected from several cancers) have low gh but they actually have gh resistance, and like insulin resistance, this mean high growth hormone that can't be properly used. They have several health problems despite being protected from cancer. IGF-1 itself promotes aging and cancer.

If higher muscle mass correlates with longevity, you'd expect men to live much longer than women.

Or you'd realize that men and women are somehow different, women secrete estrogen in pulses and men secrete it steadily and Ray peat says this is one reason women live longer. For whatever reason, in pretty much every sickness known to man, skinny to thin (somewhere in the range that would be considered not athletic, looking skinny but also not looking like you have muscle definition) people have the lowest survival rates, lower than the overweight but I don't think lower than the obese.

 

[Elephanto]

You said "higher muscle mass is associated with longevity", evidence in nature proves it is false. How does the pulsation of estrogen support your previous claim ? If we stay within the same sex and compare different species, lions and bears live way shorter lives than turtles. There's plenty of documentation on how igf-1 directly influence longevity.

 

[Blinkyrocket]

You said "higher muscle mass is associated with longevity", evidence in nature proves it is false. How does the pulsation of estrogen support your previous claim ? If we stay within the same sex and compare different species, lions and bears live way shorter lives than turtles. There's plenty of documentation on how igf-1 directly influence longevity.

And yet we don't have the technology to prove that that turtle isn't living in a complete hell for its entire life, and the fact that it's long is actually a curse, that's entirely theoretical obviously but who cares about longevity? Why "force" yourself to endure any more of this crappy world than you have to? Everybody nowadays is so obsessed with prolonging their misery for some reason. Believe it or not I'm relaxed and happier than I've been for a very long time and yet when all is quiet and I start to think I realize that even happiness isn't worth it, why would I REALLY wanna stay alive for such a long time? The only time I started to have these thoughts were when I settled down and decided not to put goals in front of myself, to just stagnate and think about life for a little bit, at first I thought something was wrong with me but I've found out now that you can feel like you're having the time of your life, looking at the scenery and feeling like you're witnessing art all the time and still feel like I wouldn't care to be around for it for 100 years. And then I realize something else, it's because I'm AFRAID to die, even after saying all this about not caring I have no free will over my emotions, the principle of it is not scary but my instincts still force me to feel fear.... And it sucks, lol

 

[Blinkyrocket]

Case in point, I'm here to increase brain size/metabolism and creativity/energy/productivity at the expense of or including longevity, I couldn't care less.

(Muscle gains too, always wanted to add on a few pounds onto my skinny frame)

 

[Peat's_Girl]

I loosely follow RDA for vitamins and most of RP's recommendation falls within RDA.
Vitamin A from liver and milk- 5,000-10,000 IU
Vitamin E : 400 IU
Vitamin K : 200-300 mcg from Liver and greens.
Vitamin D: 2,000-4,000 IU daily. I get very little sun.
The main benefits of vitamin D comes from daily intake.

Should be a sticky.

 

[pboy]

you don't need 2000, more like...1200 potentially, but its all about parathyroid not triggering it and sicne most food, especiall dairy, is high in phosphorus...to get in enough calories and still be positive calcium you'll probably end up with more. I think getting near 3000 is pushing excess though

 

[Tom]

I think on a diet that isn´t so high in potassium, like a whole grain or a meat based diet, it is very important to have a high calcium intake, and in the case of a high whole grain diet, to obtain a lot of vitamin D.

Veterinarians talk about the calcium to phosphate ratio a lot in connection to feeding of dogs, cats, swine etc, because these animals are typically given either a high meat diet or a high grain/soy diet, and not any fruits and vegetables. In such cases calcium is used as the major alkaline agent, not potassium.

According to one analysis, swine feed provided about 3/4 of the diet as corn and 1/4 soybean meal and the intake of potassium was just around 2 gram per 2000 kcal. On the other hand they obtained as much as 5 grams of calcium, and 4 grams of phosphorus (although only 3 grams of "available" phosphorus). (Swine feed can vary significanly though, sometimes they are given other grains, fish meal, whey and other things.)

On a diet high in fruits and vegetables (high in potassium), I think the requirement for calcium can be much lower than 2 gram/day. As I´ve understood it Japanese women have very low rates of osteoporosis, despite a relatively low calcium intake (very little dairy product consumption), but they do not ingest a lot of phosphorus because this is mostly found in whole grains, meats and dairy products. Japanese women appears to eat a lot of vegetables, and they also likely obtain much vitamin D from sunshine (at least compared to most European countries).

Fructose will also "use up" some phosphorus when metabolized.

The important thing is of course to keep phosphorus level in the body adequately low, but this I believe can be done with a higher intake of the other alkaline minerals. Peat mentioned someplace that sodium bicarbonate increased excretion of phosphate in the urine.

Couple of Ray Peat quotes:

In humans, in recent years a very close association has been has been documented between increased phosphate levels, within the normal range, and increased risk of cardiovascular disease. Serum phosphate is increased in people with osteoporosis (Gallagher, et al., 1980), and various treatments that lower serum phosphate improve bone mineralization, with the retention of calcium phosphate (Ma and Fu, 2010; Batista, et al., 2010; Kelly, et al., 1967; Parfitt, 1965; Kim, et al., 2003).

An older experiment compared two groups with an otherwise well balanced diet, lacking vitamin D, containing either 68% starch or 68% sucrose. A third group got the starch diet, but with added vitamin D. The rats on the vitamin D deficient starch diet had very low levels of calcium in their blood, and the calcium content of their bones was low, exactly what is expected with the vitamin D deficiency. However, the rats on the sucrose diet, also vitamin D deficient, had normal levels of calcium in their blood. The sucrose, unlike the starch, maintained claim homeostasis. A radioactive calcium tracer showed normal uptake by the bone, and also apparently normal bone development, although their bones were lighter than those receiving vitamin D.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/sugar-issues.shtml

 

[Blinkyrocket]

Well, I can't think of a better way to get protein, that's the problem, I hate meat of any form except shrimp. Other than that meat is bland and tasteless and makes me feel bad.

 

[YuraCZ]

Well, I can't think of a better way to get protein, that's the problem, I hate meat of any form except shrimp. Other than that meat is bland and tasteless and makes me feel bad.

eggs, milk, cheese, gelatin, whey protein..? I have at least 150 g a day. It's like nothing...

 

[Blinkyrocket]

Well, I can't think of a better way to get protein, that's the problem, I hate meat of any form except shrimp. Other than that meat is bland and tasteless and makes me feel bad.

eggs, milk, cheese, gelatin, whey protein..? I have at least 150 g a day. It's like nothing...

4 eggs friend in coconut oil, 8 cups of milk and 2 tablespoons of gelatin gets me to 110g of protein with 2300mg of calcium already, anymore dairy and I'm going pretty high in calcium. I'm trying to balance carbs and protein in a 3:1 ration (carbs to protein) so in order to get 3500 calories I gotta go higher than 110g.

 

[YuraCZ]

Some ground beef, cod or skinless chicken/turkey breast. 150-200g of meat a day is ok..

 

[schultz]

milk isn't naturally consumed by adults of any species.

Are you arguing that since adult mammals don't drink milk that it is therefore unhealthy or wrong in some way?

Why do anti-milk people use this as an argument?

Humans are the only animals smart enough to consistently get milk from other animals. We have a big brain and dexterous hands.

By this logic humans shouldn't eat cooked food either, because no other adult mammals eat cooked food naturally.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Peat does indeed recommend a calcium intake of around 2k mg's. Charlie has disabled the debate forum so your question doesn't really belong in this part of the forum because Peat does recommend a high calcium intake daily. He drinks upwards of a gallon of low fat milk a day. Thats around 5k mg's of calcium in one day. So yes, it's the Peat view. He thinks having more calcium in the blood than phosphorus at all times is important. and besides phosphorus, he also thinks this: "When there is adequate calcium, vitamin D, and magnesium in the diet, PTH is kept to a minimum. When PTH is kept low, cells increase their formation of the uncoupling proteins, that cause mitochondria to use energy at a higher rate, and this is associated with decreased activity of the fatty acid synthase enzymes."

With that said, since this is a "debate" type question, in my own opinion, I think vitamin D status is more important than daily calcium intake. Vitamin D is needed to absorb calcium in the first place. I think calcium intake is important, but I do question the amount to take in daily. On another note, If one wanted to do Peat with no dairy, then for calcium, all they would have to do is always keep a big jar of the boiled green broth concentrate in their fridge and drink accordingly. Peat himself occasionly does that, and it's a great way to get calcium when not doing dairy. It's like keeping a gallon of milk in your fridge but instead its just green broth.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

By this logic humans shouldn't eat cooked food either, because no other adult mammals eat cooked food naturally.

Yea it is a silly argument. Humans also have the most starch digesting amylase enzyme, and as you said, no other mammal cooks their food either, so I agree. Just like no other mammal continues to drink milk like we do, no other mammal eats starch like we do, suggesting the importance of glucose for our glucose consuming monsters, our brains: "In summary, we have shown that the pattern of variation in copy number of the human AMY1 gene is consistent with a history of diet-related selection pressures, demonstrating the importance of starchy foods in human evolution."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2377015/

 

[Elephanto]

milk isn't naturally consumed by adults of any species.

Are you arguing that since adult mammals don't drink milk that it is therefore unhealthy or wrong in some way?

Why do anti-milk people use this as an argument?

Humans are the only animals smart enough to consistently get milk from other animals. We have a big brain and dexterous hands.

By this logic humans shouldn't eat cooked food either, because no other adult mammals eat cooked food naturally.

Didn't Peat teach you not to take things out of their context ? This quote supports the fact that milk is factually proven to promote growth / igf-1 / growth hormone more than any other food on Earth, and it naturally makes sense since it is given to babies to promote growth. Growth hormone is necessary for children and pro-aging for adults. Growth hormone is something that Peat warns against.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Didn't Peat teach you not to take things out of their context ?

Elephanto, you sound like the former me young lad, just a warning (I'm not a moderator but I'm just giving you a heads up), you seem to be a little aggressive. I'd tone it down if you'd like to stay here and post. (I'm serious, I'm not poking fun at the rules here, I'm being sincere) I learned that being aggressive, though very, very temping and often hard to resist (bites lips, hands on keyboard ready to explode in nutritional disagreement! ), is stupid. I already got my aggression out on peatarian.com, so I figure while Charlie has allowed me to continue to post here, I'll be civil and just try to engage in conversation and share my opinion without being aggressive. You seem to have some good opinions to share. Don't get banned. Relax.

Warmly,

King troll of the former peatarian.com (yes, I out-trolled Alex and IslandGirl, though, that's not much an accomplshment, I have my eyes set on bigger tasks)

p.s., YouTube is a goldmine of a place to explode on people with nutritional disagreement, and most people don't moderate their comments section, (I currently have about 50 threads on youtube where I'm arguing with ketogenic carbophobics who inject butter intravenously while simultaneously popping metformin like candy) but I'm sure you already knew that.

 

[Blinkyrocket]

Some ground beef, cod or skinless chicken/turkey breast. 150-200g of meat a day is ok..

Yeah, the only food I have to force myself to eat is plain meat. It's tasteless and makes me feel weird. I'm able to do pretty good though with the eggs, and I do have occasional cheeseburgers without buns of course. Now that I have gelatin again I can push 150 easily

 

[you]

Peat does indeed recommend a calcium intake of around 2k mg's. Charlie has disabled the debate forum so your question doesn't really belong in this part of the forum because Peat does recommend a high calcium intake daily. He drinks upwards of a gallon of low fat milk a day. Thats around 5k mg's of calcium in one day. So yes, it's the Peat view. He thinks having more calcium in the blood than phosphorus at all times is important. and besides phosphorus, he also thinks this: "When there is adequate calcium, vitamin D, and magnesium in the diet, PTH is kept to a minimum. When PTH is kept low, cells increase their formation of the uncoupling proteins, that cause mitochondria to use energy at a higher rate, and this is associated with decreased activity of the fatty acid synthase enzymes."

For eating, the ratio he recommends is "And a lot of people habitually eat a ratio of roughly 5, 6 or 7 times as much phosphate as calcium, probably shouldn't exceed about 2 parts of phosphate for each calcium."

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=6392&p=76295

 

[schultz]

milk isn't naturally consumed by adults of any species.

Are you arguing that since adult mammals don't drink milk that it is therefore unhealthy or wrong in some way?

Why do anti-milk people use this as an argument?

Humans are the only animals smart enough to consistently get milk from other animals. We have a big brain and dexterous hands.

By this logic humans shouldn't eat cooked food either, because no other adult mammals eat cooked food naturally.

Didn't Peat teach you not to take things out of their context ? This quote supports the fact that milk is factually proven to promote growth / igf-1 / growth hormone more than any other food on Earth, and it naturally makes sense since it is given to babies to promote growth. Growth hormone is necessary for children and pro-aging for adults. Growth hormone is something that Peat warns against.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to argue against your growth hormone and IGF-1 topic, or even personally attack you.
People frequently use the argument that since other adult mammals don't drink milk that we shouldn't either.
I may have taken your quote out of context a bit, so I apologize

 

[jyb]

No civilization except the masai tribe has ever consumed that much calcium and their life expectancy is 45 years old for women and 42 for men, which of course can't be only explained by their calcium intake but makes a case that very high calcium intake isn't a life extender or essential, and high igf-1 is probably another reason.

The Masai drank milk fermented, which destroys IGF-1. I am not sure how healthy they were, but have you corrected for higher neonatal deaths and infected water supply? If not, then your life expectancy figure is completely meaningless as a comparison to our societies. A sick American can live 80 years old in comparison, but this is not thanks to intrinsic health - it is due to having fixed these first order considerations including non infected water. Also need to take into account the fact that modern Masais have been forced to lose some of those dairy traditions in favour of more modern foods like starch. The Caucasian dairy tribe which Ray also cited I believe also drink milk fermented. There's a few examples of healthier countries where calcium intake is higher than others, even if they don't eat as much dairy as dairy tribes.