Coffee For Deep Sleep

[DaveFoster]

I don't agree with the umbrella ideology that everyone does (or should) react the same way to coffee. There are plenty of people who have have good livers in every normal scenario, but who have significant side effects to coffee (me included). Maybe it is immunological, but I've not seen evidence yet that coherently explains my (and many other's) observations.

Severe hypothyroidism increases coffee intolerance.

Dr. Peat never answered my question whether it had to do with the redox balance of the cell.

 

[Waynish]

Severe hypothyroidism increases coffee intolerance.

Dr. Peat never answered my question whether it had to do with the redox balance of the cell.

If that's true, then how does the "caffeine is a thyroid surrogate" idea work?

 

[Kartoffel]

Severe hypothyroidism increases coffee intolerance.

I think the relationship between hypothyroidism, the liver's capacity to store glycogen, and coffee intolerance is fairly obvious. Thyroid increases the amount of glycogen in the liver by increasing the concentration of the enzyme glycogen synthase. Coffee can actually amplify this effect, but too much stimulation by caffeine is likely to aggrevate hypoglycemia, if the liver is very depleted to begin with.

 

[DaveFoster]

If that's true, then how does the "caffeine is a thyroid surrogate" idea work?

@Kartoffel

I didn't read your post until after I wrote this up:

Many use coffee (or caffeine) to improve symptoms of mild hypothyroidism, but tolerance for caffeine seems to have a biphasic effect across individuals.

Severely hypothyroid experience caffeine-induced anxiety due to poor glycogen (sugar) storage and "the pathology of estrogen dominance," where estrogen impairs the liver's detoxification pathways and leads to greater accumulated estrogen. Estrogen interferes with normal thyroid function, primarily the production and retention of CO2, which itself tends to slow the breathing rate, and where its absence promotes hyperventilation and in extreme cases, panic attacks.

This supports the idea of a "sedative" increasing coffee tolerance: for example antihistamines (which oppose estrogen's effects, and where histamine itself promotes glycogen depletion), aspirin (which directly improves liver glycogen storage), benzodiazepine and similar drugs (including niacinamide) and other B-vitamins like thiamine, all of which lead to greater CO2 retention, which itself stimulates thyroid activity and improves glycogen storage. Thyroid has a similar effect, as evident by its promotion of relaxation, as with the physical relaxation of the Achilles' tendon, but also as an analogous mental relaxation experienced by many who first take T3; it also of course directly increases the activity of glycogen synthase (and increases glycogen storage.)

Euthyroid people find they drink less coffee and may become overheated or stimulated by the caffeine, but they won't experience its anxiogenic effects.

"Raising CO2 levels by means of therapeutic capnometry has proven beneficial effects in both disorders [both panic disorder and asthma], and the reversing of hyperventilation has emerged as a potent mediator for reductions in panic symptom severity and treatment success."

Reference: Hyperventilation in Panic Disorder and Asthma: Empirical Evidence and Clinical Strategies

"...the histamine-induced glycogen breakdown in astrocytes may involve increases in cAMP formation and in intracellular Ca2+ levels..."

Reference: Histamine stimulates glycogen breakdown and increases 45Ca2+ permeability in rat astrocytes in primary culture. - PubMed - NCBI

"Histamine mimics estrogen's effects on the uterus, and antihistamines block estrogen's effects (Szego, 1965, Szego and Davis, 1967). Estrogen mimics the shock reaction. Stress, exercise, and toxins cause a rapid increase in estrogen. Males often have as much estrogen as females, especially when they are tired or sick. Estrogen increases the brain's susceptibility to epileptic seizures, and recent research shows that it (and cortisol) promote the effects of the "excitotoxins," which are increasingly implicated in degenerative brain diseases."

Reference: Ray Peat

"The principal pathophysiologic effect of toxic doses of salicylates are characterized by (1) stimulation of the respiratory center of the brain, leading to hyperpnea and respiratory alkalosis; (2) uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation, leading to increased oxygen utilization and glucose demand, increased oxygen utilization and glucose demand, increased glyconeogenesis [formation of glycogen], and increased heat production"

Reference: Pathophysiology of aspirin overdosage toxicity, with implications for management. - PubMed - NCBI

"Thyroid and carbon dioxide are very inter-related. Carbon dioxide increases thyroid activity, and I imagine thyroid activity may increase carbon dioxide as well – swinging in both directions." - Raymond Peat, PhD

Reference: Asthma, Adrenaline, and Carbon Dioxide - 180 Degree Health

"The features of the stress metabolism include increases of stress hormones, lactate, ammonia, free fatty acids, and fat synthesis, and a decrease in carbon dioxide. Factors that lower the stress hormones, increase carbon dioxide, and help to lower the circulating free fatty acids, lactate, and ammonia, include vitamin B1 (to increase CO2 and reduce lactate), niacinamide (to reduce free fatty acids), sugar (to reduce cortisol, adrenaline, and free fatty acids), salt (to lower adrenaline), thyroid hormone (to increase CO2). Vitamins D, K, B6 and biotin are also closely involved with carbon dioxide metabolism. Biotin deficiency can cause aerobic glycolysis with increased fat synthesis (Marshall, et al., 1976)."

Reference: Lactate vs. CO2 in wounds, sickness, and aging; the other approach to cancer

"Plasma epinephrine and norepinephrine levels were measured at rest and at 8 minutes, 11 minutes and maximal exercise...alprazolam reduces the plasma catecholamine response to exercise stress..."

Reference: Effect of a benzodiazepine (alprazolam) on plasma epinephrine and norepinephrine levels during exercise stress. - PubMed - NCBI

"Isolated hepatocytes from hyperthyroid and euthyroid rats showed the same rate and extent of activation of glycogen synthase after addition of glucose (10 mM or 60 mM). In liver cells from hypothyroid rats this activation occurred at a 7-fold lower rate. However, complete activation of glycogen synthase occurred eventually in broken-cell preparations from either source during incubation in vitro. Glycogen synthase phosphatase was then quantitatively assayed in liver homogenates with exogenous synthase b as substrate. These assays revealed an increased synthase phosphatase activity (approximately 160%) in the hyperthyroid liver and a decreased activity (to approximately 60%) in the livers from hypothyroid rats."

Reference: The effect of the thyroid status on the activation of glycogen synthase in liver cells. - PubMed - NCBI

Originally posted on the Foster Your Health blog: Why You Can’t Tolerate Coffee (It’s Your Thyroid)

 

[X3CyO]

Yeah. Eating a big meal and then drinking coffee knocks me out. Never tried it at night though. Just lunch.

Tends to make my feet cold at the same time though my body gets warm. Not sure why.

 

[theLaw]

 

[Ulysses]

Severe hypothyroidism increases coffee intolerance.

Dr. Peat never answered my question whether it had to do with the redox balance of the cell.

Yes, but logically, it does not follow that coffee intolerance implies hypothyroidism. That would be affirming the consequent. Not that you were saying this, but I think it would be easy, especially for a new poster, to conclude from this and other discussions of coffee that the solution to coffee intolerance is to drink more coffee. Maybe, but not always.

I’m having the same experience with coffee: per RP’s recommendations I was drinking it ad libitum, was fine for a week or two, but then crashed. Hard. Severely impaired sleep for a whole week, extremely low energy with brain fog in the morning, daytime sleepiness, and hypersalivation. Cutting back on the coffee solved the problem.

 

[DaveFoster]

Yes, but logically, it does not follow that coffee intolerance implies hypothyroidism. That would be affirming the consequent. Not that you were saying this, but I think it would be easy, especially for a new poster, to conclude from this and other discussions of coffee that the solution to coffee intolerance is to drink more coffee. Maybe, but not always.

I’m having the same experience with coffee: per RP’s recommendations I was drinking it ad libitum, was fine for a week or two, but then crashed. Hard. Severely impaired sleep for a whole week, extremely low energy with brain fog in the morning, daytime sleepiness, and hypersalivation. Cutting back on the coffee solved the problem.

Maybe because some wrongfully assume that caffeine and thyroid have equivalent effects.

 

[Magyar]

Thyroid has a similar effect, as evident by its promotion of relaxation, as with the physical relaxation of the Achilles' tendon,

Per chance, do you know anything more about physical relaxation of tendons or muscles and Thyroid? Reason I ask is that I assume I have been hypothyroid my whole life and have also been incredibly un-supple and super-tight. I cannot touch my toes etc etc

 

[Magyar]

I remember Danny Roddy recommending coffee before bed, but does anyone have any thoughts or understanding as to why this type of response?

My understanding -- and I am open to being completely wrong about this -- is that coffee/caffeine stimulates the metabolism such that it processes energy better -- sleep being a high metabolic activity is enhanced when the sleep is adequately fueled.

I have been giving 1/2 of a Mexican Coke to my 7 year old (he sleeps fitfully) before he goes to sleep (we brush his teeth after drinking and before bed) for precisely this reason. It appears to help as he wakes up with an appetite. This is unusual for him.

 

[lvysaur]

The contrapositive also seems true: many people with very poor health are fine with substances that bother healthier people...

This is so much the case for alcohol. Before Peat, on my 21st birthday, I started buying a new artisan beer every day. These were liter beers of 10+% alcohol, roughly equivalent to a six pack, and they barely got me tipsy despite me having zero tolerance.

Also it's "inverse" not "contrapositive". There's no direction of events, so both converse and contrapositive are irrelevant.

 

[DaveFoster]

Per chance, do you know anything more about physical relaxation of tendons or muscles and Thyroid? Reason I ask is that I assume I have been hypothyroid my whole life and have also been incredibly un-supple and super-tight. I cannot touch my toes etc etc

"Hypothyroidism is typically associated with increased prolactin secretion. Hypothyroid people typically retain water, while losing salt, so the hypothyroid state is analogous to the salmon that has returned to the river, and to the mice that drink too much salt-free water.

The typical hypothyroid person loses salt rapidly in the urine (and probably in the sweat, too, though that is usually diagnosed as cystic fibrosis), and retains water, diluting the urine less than normal. The reduced production of carbon dioxide, with increased susceptibility to producing lactate and ammonium, causes the cells to be more alkaline than normal, increasing their affinity for water. The rise of estrogen that usually accompanies hypothyroidism also increases intracellular pH, loss of sodium, and over-hydration of the blood.

Hypothyroid muscles typically retain excess water, and fatigue easily, taking up more water than normal during exertion. In childhood, mild hypothyroidism often causes the leg muscles to swell and ache in the evenings, with what have been called "growing pains." When the problem is more extreme, all the skeletal muscles can become very large (Hoffman syndrome), because of the anabolic effect of over-hydration. Enlargement of any muscle can result from the excessive hydration produced by thyroid deficiency, but when it happens to the muscles behind the eyes (Itabashi, et al., 1988), it often leads to a diagnosis of hyperthyroidism, rather than hypothyroidism.

The little kids with the Hoffman syndrome don't have the bloated myxedematous appearance that's often associated with hypothyroidism. They look athletic to a ridiculous degree, like miniature body-builders. But after a few weeks of treatment with thyroid, they regain the slender appearance that's normal for their age. The swollen state actually supports enlargement of the muscle, and the cellular processes are probably closely related to the muscle swelling and growth produced by exercise. The growth of the muscle cell during swelling seems to be the result of normal repair processes, in a context of reduced turnover of cellular proteins.

The people who believe in membrane pumps that maintain normal solute distributions by active transport know that the pumps would require energy (far more than the cell can produce, but they don't confront that issue), and so their view requires that they assign a great part of the cell's resources just to maintaining ionic homeostasis, and the result of that is that they tend to neglect the actual energy economy of the cell, which is primarily devoted to the adaptive renewal of the cell structure and enzyme systems, not to driving the systems that don't exist.

The "anabolic" balance of the swollen cell is the result of decreased turnover of the cell's components. The higher rate of metabolism produced by adequate thyroid function maintains a high rate of renewal of the cell's systems, keeping the cell constantly adjusted to slight changes in the organism's needs. The evidence of a high rate of bone turnover is sometimes taken as evidence that thyroid can cause osteoporosis.

Later, in a more mature person, chronically fatigued and painful muscles that at one time would have been diagnosed as rheumatism, may be diagnosed as fibromyalgia. Most doctors are reluctant to prescribe thyroid supplements for the problem, but the association of elevated prolactin with the muscle disorder is now generally recognized."

- Ray Peat, PhD in http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/water.shtml​

 

[Vinero]

I love coffee after a big meal, it's relaxing, calm energy actually. I can even do that an hour or so before going to bed and sleep fine.
I probably average about 600 mg of caffeine a day. Nothing too crazy. This is the amount of caffeine my body naturally craves.

 

[tara]

Per chance, do you know anything more about physical relaxation of tendons or muscles and Thyroid? Reason I ask is that I assume I have been hypothyroid my whole life and have also been incredibly un-supple and super-tight. I cannot touch my toes etc etc

This article of Peat's seems to have some relevant perspective on the phenomenon:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fatigue-aging-recuperation.shtml

You might find more in his other articles.

AIUI, basically, cells need energy to relax fully after exertion. Hypothyroid/low metabolism states involve difficulties producing sufficient energy.

 

[anyfit]

whenever i drink coffee after a heavy meal i fall asleep very easily to the point where i cannot fight it , i just have to lay down and shut down

 

[InChristAlone]

whenever i drink coffee after a heavy meal i fall asleep very easily to the point where i cannot fight it , i just have to lay down and shut down

Not to alarm anyone but you should check your blood glucose if you get intensely sleepy after a meal.

 

[anyfit]

Not to alarm anyone but you should check your blood glucose if you get intensely sleepy after a meal.

i only get it after a huge meal followed by a cup of strong coffee , i rarely get it after normal meals , but perhaps i should drink more orange juice and eat some honey

 

[RPDiciple]

Just a little bit amount caffeine to much ***** my sleep big time, no matter what. Say doing 5-600 mg instead of 400mg. And never taking it close to bed ofc, then im double ****88

 

[Matestube]

I have been sleeping better since i upped my coffee/caffeine dose also. In fact i have been feeling MUCH better overall. My temperatures are up, thyroid alone could never do that no matter what dose.

I feel that a lot of my problems are due to liver issues - ie fatty liver. The caffeine has been improving glycogen stores which would reduce hypoglycemia and stress hormones.
Previously I would wake up during the night due to adrenaline and in the morning I would bounce out of bed wired. Having a healthy liver will stop this allowing better, deeper sleep. I can also now sleep in if i want.

Hey, do you still fare well on coffee? It does improve my liver and my wellbeing, but it's very taxing on my sleep quality.

 

[TheSir]

Hey, do you still fare well on coffee? It does improve my liver and my wellbeing, but it's very taxing on my sleep quality.

I'm like you. I tolerate caffeine well and it makes me feel good, but my body simply does not have what it takes to metabolize caffeine fast enough for it not to disrupt my sleep quality, no matter how early in the day I ingest it. Just a few days of consecutive use will impact my wellbeing. From what I understand, the problem exists on a genetic rather than metabolic level and has to do with with the amounts and types of enzymes your liver has been equipped to produce. Would be fantastic if there was some substance you could take that caused all circulating caffeine to be excreted.