Can organic livestock/fruits be given things like fluoridated tap water?

[Dr. B]

can organic cows, trees, fruits etc be given fluoridated tap water?
are there other toxic ingredients that organic animals/plants can be given, which then leads to products from those sources like milk/OJ also containing the toxins?
obviously PUFA, grains, seeds, carrageenan etc can all be given to animals as long as they are also organic. but i was wondering what else they can be given and potentially contain. I have heard many animals are given "free choice minerals". not sure what those are but that could be another way they could get some iron or other heavy metals.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Yes livestock can be given fluoridated water. Flouride in our water is government mandated in the US. You would have to get your produce from Mexico to avoid that, hence why Mexican Coke is better than Coke made in America.

 

[Dr. B]

Yes livestock can be given fluoridated water. Flouride in our water is government mandated in the US. You would have to get your produce from Mexico to avoid that, hence why Mexican Coke is better than Coke made in America.

is mexican water not fortified with anything? even then are there impurities present in the mexican coke due to its water? i think its just carbonated water not filtered water right.
I think certain counties dont fluoridate the water right? as well as if your water is well water like some places? the fluoridation program seems to be at the county level?
most organic OJ ive seen is sourced from mexico and the US btw!

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

is mexican water not fortified with anything? even then are there impurities present in the mexican coke due to its water? i think its just carbonated water not filtered water right.
I think certain counties dont fluoridate the water right? as well as if your water is well water like some places? the fluoridation program seems to be at the county level?
most organic OJ ive seen is sourced from mexico and the US btw!

I wouldn't buy produce from Mexico for all your same reasons, but I used them as an example. There are other countries that don't flouridate their water and there are many farms that use well water I am sure, but that is a lot to figure out. More reasons why it is good to just let the cow do the filtering and stick to tropical fruits as Ray Peat suggest.

 

[jeredpilot]

can organic cows, trees, fruits etc be given fluoridated tap water?
are there other toxic ingredients that organic animals/plants can be given, which then leads to products from those sources like milk/OJ also containing the toxins?
obviously PUFA, grains, seeds, carrageenan etc can all be given to animals as long as they are also organic. but i was wondering what else they can be given and potentially contain. I have heard many animals are given "free choice minerals". not sure what those are but that could be another way they could get some iron or other heavy metals.

When discussing agricultural animals (not animals in someone's backyard) you will never find the animals on municipal water. (Municipal water = Water that has fluoride and chlorine added) These farms are many miles away from city or town centers. These farms sometimes have water wells (or sometimes use artesian water) to water their cattle. But mostly, they use ponds for cattle water. These ponds normally stay full from natural rain runoff. Pork and chicken production would almost entirely use well water. So, the chance of the meat or vegetables that you buy being grown using municipal tap water is effectively zero.

Some processing plants, where carcasses and vegetables are processed, could use municipal water because these facilities are found closer to population centers. But your large scale agricultural products are never grown using municipal water.

 

[Dr. B]

When discussing agricultural animals (not animals in someone's backyard) you will never find the animals on municipal water. (Municipal water = Water that has fluoride and chlorine added) These farms are many miles away from city or town centers. These farms sometimes have water wells (or sometimes use artesian water) to water their cattle. But mostly, they use ponds for cattle water. These ponds normally stay full from natural rain runoff. Pork and chicken production would almost entirely use well water. So, the chance of the meat or vegetables that you buy being grown using municipal tap water is effectively zero.

Some processing plants, where carcasses and vegetables are processed, could use municipal water because these facilities are found closer to population centers. But your large scale agricultural products are never grown using municipal water.

interesting, good to know.
do you think theres other toxins animals could be fed with, which we are then getting in from their meat or milk? organic animals only, so obviously not the hormones, pesticides, antibiotics, but more so like supplements, metals, vaccines, etc. i have heard organic animals are given "free choice minerals", and they can also be vaccinated. some of these vaccines deposit heavy metals in the organs. the mineral supplements could build up also

 

[jeredpilot]

interesting, good to know.
do you think theres other toxins animals could be fed with, which we are then getting in from their meat or milk? organic animals only, so obviously not the hormones, pesticides, antibiotics, but more so like supplements, metals, vaccines, etc. i have heard organic animals are given "free choice minerals", and they can also be vaccinated. some of these vaccines deposit heavy metals in the organs. the mineral supplements could build up also

Generally speaking there is a lot to say here and a lot of variables. But since we are only concerned with organic it simplifies things greatly.

"Free Choice [trace] Minerals" are an animal feed supplement used in open range type environments that are set out in specially designed feeders, tubs, or blocks which allow the animal to feed when they want to. (More on how this works below)

Trace Minerals are pre-blended into all commercial feeds and fed proportionally based on the feeding requirements of animals like swine or chicken. These blended feeds are also used in a feedlot environment for cattle. So you find these types of feeding operations where there is a concentrated population of animals. These concentrated feeding operations are very rarely organic. But you will sometimes find swine or chicken operations like this. The reason this is rare is because it is expensive to source all components of the feed as organic which makes feeding in these concentrated operations very expensive. So generally, we will only find non-organic animals in this group.

But here we are talking about "free choice." Free choice is much as it sounds. Free choice is trace minerals that are put out alone and not blended into feed. You will mostly find these types of minerals in large pastures, ranges, and paddocks within these pastures but very very rarely in a concentrated feeding environment. The idea is that animals will only feed from these sources when they have a mineral "need." Much like when you and I get certain cravings, it may be our body telling us we are missing a nutrient. So these animals don't just stand around feeding from theses minerals. These minerals are very expensive on a per pound basis, but feeding these free choice minerals is cost effective because the animal consumes very small amounts of the free choice mineral because they are on open grass ranges. So they get their forage / feed / grass from the land and only occasionally partake in the free choice minerals. When the operation is an organic operation then the minerals are from organic sources. Otherwise they are not organically sourced. This type of feeding arrangement is not only used for cattle, but also chickens, goats, sheep, and occasionally swine.

The most common minerals in these free choice minerals is magnesium, cobalt, copper, and manganese. Salt is also sometimes added, but generally salt is fed separately.

 

[jeredpilot]

interesting, good to know.
do you think theres other toxins animals could be fed with, which we are then getting in from their meat or milk? organic animals only, so obviously not the hormones, pesticides, antibiotics, but more so like supplements, metals, vaccines, etc. i have heard organic animals are given "free choice minerals", and they can also be vaccinated. some of these vaccines deposit heavy metals in the organs. the mineral supplements could build up also

That being said, no I don't think the risk of heavy metals in organic meats and dairies is high; even when fed free choice minerals. As discussed immediately above, these animals largely consume forage from the land as they have for thousands of years.

I think the risk of heavy metals comes in with concentrated population feeding operations. Operations other than free range type operations. i.e. Feedlots, chicken houses, swine houses etc. The very nature of the operation concentrates grains and forage from hundreds of miles around into a commercial feed. So all of the heavy metals contained in the grain is ground into a commercial feed and fed to the animals in the concentrated operation. This would include a commercial dairy operation as well.

In the free range environment, and most certainly in an organic free range environment, there is ideally no grain fed to these animals. And if they are fed, they are only supplemental and from organic sources. If one stays mostly clear of these concentrated feeding operations, I think the risk of heavy metal issues is generally no higher than if we take venison from the land.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I will see what else I can find.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

.

 

[jeredpilot]

I will see what else I can find.

Well, the first thing you have to understand is that all "fluorides" are not the same. In fact, not even close to the same. Let's break my comment down.

"Fluoride" is a naturally occurring element and is found in essentially all soil and free flowing water / groundwater / seawater. It is also found in almost everything that uses water such as plants and animals etc. After all, if it is in our soil and in our water, how would it not be in our plants and our bodies?

This form of fluoride that we find all around us, which is naturally occurring, is Calcium Fluoride. It is a molecule that is found everywhere and is harmless to humans.**note below

Furthermore, essentially every water sample you will pull from every source (unless reveres osmosis or distilled) will contain the calcium fluoride form of "fluoride." The screenshot you posted does not give enough information, but I am not surprised that they found "fluoride" in their results. Rather, I would have been surprised if they had not. But, just because they found fluoride does not mean it was sourced from municipal water. Don't forget, Calcium Fluoride is found everywhere, so of course it would be found in the vegetables they tested.

BUT!!! - The fluoride they add to our water is NOT Calcium Fluoride. The fluoride they add to our municipal water is a very different compound than the naturally occurring calcium fluoride. The fluoride they add to our drinking water is an industrial waste form of fluoride. Its chemical form is Sodium Fluoride and is not naturally occurring; it is synthetic. This form is labeled with a poisonous warning label and plainly states it is not for human consumption. But yes, they add it to our water. I want to reiterate: Sodium Fluoride is NOT a naturally occurring compound. We only see it industrially produced. But Calcium Fluoride is naturally occurring and we find it all around us.

So to summarize what I stated above, just because we find "fluoride" in vegetable and meat samples does not equate to being watered with municipal water. Nor does it equate to being contaminated with Sodium Fluoride. It also does not mean that it is a danger to us. I will also reiterate that 99.99999% our agricultural products are NOT watered with municipal water.

One other thing is, I would not want to consume vegetable or meat products that are watered with municipal water. Steer clear of municipal water that has fluoride added, because it is the sodium fluoride, industrial synthetic form and is very dangerous stuff. I have avoided municipal water for more than fifteen years now.

**Note: (There are is a isolated place in India where the calcium fluoride in the rock formations causes excessively high calcium fluoride levels in their water and does cause some health issues. Also, where I grew up the levels were a bit high and caused teeth to be effected somewhat. It makes the teeth much more durable and less prone to cavities, but it also causes faint brown marks on teeth) But it is safe to say that calcium fluoride, when in 99.9999% of the areas of the world, is completely harmless.)

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Well, the first thing you have to understand is that all "fluorides" are not the same. In fact, not even close to the same. Let's break my comment down.

"Fluoride" is a naturally occurring element and is found in essentially all soil and free flowing water / groundwater / seawater. It is also found in almost everything that uses water such as plants and animals etc. After all, if it is in our soil and in our water, how would it not be in our plants and our bodies?

This form of fluoride that we find all around us, which is naturally occurring, is Calcium Fluoride. It is a molecule that is found everywhere and is harmless to humans.**note below

Furthermore, essentially every water sample you will pull from every source (unless reveres osmosis or distilled) will contain the calcium fluoride form of "fluoride." The screenshot you posted does not give enough information, but I am not surprised that they found "fluoride" in their results. Rather, I would have been surprised if they had not. But, just because they found fluoride does not mean it was sourced from municipal water. Don't forget, Calcium Fluoride is found everywhere, so of course it would be found in the vegetables they tested.

BUT!!! - The fluoride they add to our water is NOT Calcium Fluoride. The fluoride they add to our municipal water is a very different compound than the naturally occurring calcium fluoride. The fluoride they add to our drinking water is an industrial waste form of fluoride. Its chemical form is Sodium Fluoride and is not naturally occurring; it is synthetic. This form is labeled with a poisonous warning label and plainly states it is not for human consumption. But yes, they add it to our water. I want to reiterate: Sodium Fluoride is NOT a naturally occurring compound. We only see it industrially produced. But Calcium Fluoride is naturally occurring and we find it all around us.

So to summarize what I stated above, just because we find "fluoride" in vegetable and meat samples does not equate to being watered with municipal water. Nor does it equate to being contaminated with Sodium Fluoride. It also does not mean that it is a danger to us. I will also reiterate that 99.99999% our agricultural products are NOT watered with municipal water.

One other thing is, I would not want to consume vegetable or meat products that are watered with municipal water. Steer clear of municipal water that has fluoride added, because it is the sodium fluoride, industrial synthetic form and is very dangerous stuff. I have avoided municipal water for more than fifteen years now.

**Note: (There are is a isolated place in India where the calcium fluoride in the rock formations causes excessively high calcium fluoride levels in their water and does cause some health issues. Also, where I grew up the levels were a bit high and caused teeth to be effected somewhat. It makes the teeth much more durable and less prone to cavities, but it also causes faint brown marks on teeth) But it is safe to say that calcium fluoride, when in 99.9999% of the areas of the world, is completely harmless.)

I am really allergic to flouride. Here is my arm rash that would flare up anytime i had flouride. Once I got a gravity filter and made my own ice and such it went away. Even when i go to Palm Springs, which uses well water with high amounts of natural flouride I have lots of issues ingesting it.

 

[jeredpilot]

.

Yes. As stated in my second post, processing facilities are likely to use municipal water. Chicken takes a lot more water to process than beef. And when these facilities process our vegetables they most certainly contaminate our food with Sodium Fluoride.

For these reasons I avoid chicken. I go by the adage that fowl is foul. ;-)

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Oh i like that one! Fowl is foul! I only buy corn and soy free pastured chicken wings nowadays and boil them in flouride free water, which also gets whatever PUFA's out of the skins, before broiling them.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Here are some unexpected high flouride sources.

 

[jeredpilot]

I am really allergic to flouride. Here is my arm rash that would flare up anytime i had flouride. Once I got a gravity filter and made my own ice and such it went away. Even when i go to Palm Springs, which uses well water with high amounts of natural flouride I have lots of issues ingesting it.

Yes. Certain well water does have higher levels of Calcium Fluoride. Like my note at the bottom stated, I grew up in an area that does too. But that same form of calcium fluoride is in the potting soil we use in our plants, the soil that every fruit and vegetable grows in, the grass that every cow gets etc. It is also in every bit of water we drink (unless distilled or specifically filtered for "fluoride," RO etc).

I would be interested to see what else is in that water that causes you so much terrible trouble. Maybe there is something unseen that is also in that water.

 

[jeredpilot]

Here are some unexpected high flouride sources.

Nice!

Almost 100% of these beverage companies are located inside a municipal water supply. I wonder how many of them don't realize it takes a special filtration system to get the fluoride out. Or even how many of them even care.

Also, I bet those pans are made with the industrial sodium fluoride version.

It is crazy to me that these municipalities add a known human poison (Sodium Fluoride) into our drinking water.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Yes. Certain well water does have higher levels of Calcium Fluoride. Like my note at the bottom stated, I grew up in an area that does too. But that same form of calcium fluoride is in the potting soil we use in our plants, the soil that every fruit and vegetable grows in, the grass that every cow gets etc. It is also in every bit of water we drink (unless distilled or specifically filtered for "fluoride," RO etc).

I would be interested to see what else is in that water that causes you so much terrible trouble. Maybe there is something unseen that is also in that water.

I tracked the arm it sitting against a new sofa, but flouride caused it to break out in that hot rash, some chicken and rice too. It also explained why I got angioedema with my tongue swelling out of my mouth overnight after uusing a new toothpaste. Everytime my arm would be back to normal if I not thinking ingested ice from a drink atcacrestaurantvorcatectheir soup, it would turn into that red burning hot arm all over again. It never itched, just burned.

 

[Dr. B]

Generally speaking there is a lot to say here and a lot of variables. But since we are only concerned with organic it simplifies things greatly.

"Free Choice [trace] Minerals" are an animal feed supplement used in open range type environments that are set out in specially designed feeders, tubs, or blocks which allow the animal to feed when they want to. (More on how this works below)

Trace Minerals are pre-blended into all commercial feeds and fed proportionally based on the feeding requirements of animals like swine or chicken. These blended feeds are also used in a feedlot environment for cattle. So you find these types of feeding operations where there is a concentrated population of animals. These concentrated feeding operations are very rarely organic. But you will sometimes find swine or chicken operations like this. The reason this is rare is because it is expensive to source all components of the feed as organic which makes feeding in these concentrated operations very expensive. So generally, we will only find non-organic animals in this group.

But here we are talking about "free choice." Free choice is much as it sounds. Free choice is trace minerals that are put out alone and not blended into feed. You will mostly find these types of minerals in large pastures, ranges, and paddocks within these pastures but very very rarely in a concentrated feeding environment. The idea is that animals will only feed from these sources when they have a mineral "need." Much like when you and I get certain cravings, it may be our body telling us we are missing a nutrient. So these animals don't just stand around feeding from theses minerals. These minerals are very expensive on a per pound basis, but feeding these free choice minerals is cost effective because the animal consumes very small amounts of the free choice mineral because they are on open grass ranges. So they get their forage / feed / grass from the land and only occasionally partake in the free choice minerals. When the operation is an organic operation then the minerals are from organic sources. Otherwise they are not organically sourced. This type of feeding arrangement is not only used for cattle, but also chickens, goats, sheep, and occasionally swine.

The most common minerals in these free choice minerals is magnesium, cobalt, copper, and manganese. Salt is also sometimes added, but generally salt is fed separately.

excellent, how did you find all this information?


is the salt given to animals iodized salt? or pink salt/sea salt or other non iodized salt.

That being said, no I don't think the risk of heavy metals in organic meats and dairies is high; even when fed free choice minerals. As discussed immediately above, these animals largely consume forage from the land as they have for thousands of years.

I think the risk of heavy metals comes in with concentrated population feeding operations. Operations other than free range type operations. i.e. Feedlots, chicken houses, swine houses etc. The very nature of the operation concentrates grains and forage from hundreds of miles around into a commercial feed. So all of the heavy metals contained in the grain is ground into a commercial feed and fed to the animals in the concentrated operation. This would include a commercial dairy operation as well.

In the free range environment, and most certainly in an organic free range environment, there is ideally no grain fed to these animals. And if they are fed, they are only supplemental and from organic sources. If one stays mostly clear of these concentrated feeding operations, I think the risk of heavy metal issues is generally no higher than if we take venison from the land.

what do you mean "than if we take venison from the land"
what about vaccines? i guess those can be given to organic animals

Here are some unexpected high flouride sources.

strange, wht causes such high fluoride? i had heard before black tea has the most followed by green and then white tea in terms of fluoride. but apparently black tea is the least estrogeni or something.
i dont think coffee is safe either. might be better to just avoid it given the issues with modern soil.
a soda should have the usual fluoride in the water if its from fluoridated water. black tea having 5-10 times higher fluoride is very concerning. very strange too. it naturally somehow concentrates fluoride?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

excellent, how did you find all this information?


is the salt given to animals iodized salt? or pink salt/sea salt or other non iodized salt.



what do you mean "than if we take venison from the land"
what about vaccines? i guess those can be given to organic animals




strange, wht causes such high fluoride? i had heard before black tea has the most followed by green and then white tea in terms of fluoride. but apparently black tea is the least estrogeni or something.
i dont think coffee is safe either. might be better to just avoid it given the issues with modern soil.
a soda should have the usual fluoride in the water if its from fluoridated water. black tea having 5-10 times higher fluoride is very concerning. very strange too. it naturally somehow concentrates fluoride?

I know what the heck?!!