Fruits Are A Bad Choice For Most People

[SuperStressed]

Based off of this correspondence with Ray, shared to the Yahoo groups taken from
Ray Peat Diet, Food Choices, And General Guidelines

- he doesn't eat fruits with seeds that can't be avoided (berries,
figs, etc) because while the antioxidants are good, the benefits are
less than the toxins in the seeds. Other fruits like peaches, plums,
apples, etc should only be eaten if organic and tree-ripened;
otherwise they have very powerful toxins (if unripe or shelf-ripened)
that can cause gut damage. Melons, cherries, and citrus are the best
fruits.

- when off-season, says it's better to eat frozen fruit and juice
rather than rely on importation because many studies show that storage
methods and stress from importation and treatments make them carcinogenic.

Fruit is a bad choice for most people based on these writings. How is anybody supposed to know if the fruit they buy is tree-ripened unless they grew it themselves? Peaches, plums and apples are climacteric and ripen off the tree but this isn't good enough, they need to be tree-ripened and organic. Some countries don't even grow the safe fruits so even if they were confirmed tree-ripened - importing them is carcinogenic anyway!

Im not seeing any proof that cooking fruit removes all these negatives. Elsewhere Ray says that if you cook apples they still need to be ripe before hand. So I don't think cooking unripened fruit makes it 'safe' by Peat's standards.

Maybe if you found frozen fruit that tasted ripe and was organic it would be a good option, but thats been very hard to find in my case. I suppose fruit that is sold frozen is picked and frozen very quickly, so atleast you would know it was tree-ripened? the choices are very small, which is sad. When you consider starch as something potentially harmful (bad bacteria, weight etc) you don't have a lot of choices at all. I'm finding it impossible to hit the 4-5000 calories I need with these restrictions in place.

 

[Kingpinguin]

Based off of this correspondence with Ray, shared to the Yahoo groups taken from
Ray Peat Diet, Food Choices, And General Guidelines





Fruit is a bad choice for most people based on these writings. How is anybody supposed to know if the fruit they buy is tree-ripened unless they grew it themselves? Peaches, plums and apples are climacteric and ripen off the tree but this isn't good enough, they need to be tree-ripened and organic. Some countries don't even grow the safe fruits so even if they were confirmed tree-ripened - importing them is carcinogenic anyway!

Im not seeing any proof that cooking fruit removes all these negatives. Elsewhere Ray says that if you cook apples they still need to be ripe before hand. So I don't think cooking unripened fruit makes it 'safe' by Peat's standards.

Maybe if you found frozen fruit that tasted ripe and was organic it would be a good option, but thats been very hard to find in my case. I suppose fruit that is sold frozen is picked and frozen very quickly, so atleast you would know it was tree-ripened? the choices are very small, which is sad. When you consider starch as something potentially harmful (bad bacteria, overweight) you don't have a lot of choices at all. I'm finding it impossible to hit the 4-5000 calories I need with these restrictions in place.

You seem to be super stressed

 

[milkboi]

You seem to be super stressed

True. But he has a point. There aren‘t a lot of fruits that are conductive to good health in the western world.

 

[lampofred]

I draw the line at as long as something has no PUFA and isn't fortified with iron, it is okay to eat as long as it doesn't cause gut problems. Anything more than that is pretty impractical, considering how just avoiding PUFA and iron means you already can't eat 90% of the food out there.

 

[Kingpinguin]

True. But he has a point. There aren‘t a lot of fruits that are conductive to good health in the western world.

I eat all types of fruits my thyroid is good, my hormonal profile is great, lots of energy, libido and great mood. Excellent digestion. Dunno some people might be sensitive I’m not. My opinion is that people takes rays work like the supreme ultimate law of everything. While not considering that ray might just be discussing some opinions losely of subjects he think is not optimal in our society. The link superstressed posts about rays own words is actually not rays own words it just links to another forum post where people design a diet and put words in rays mouth that this is how he eats. The link in the other thread does not even work anymore. On top of that ray eats most things once in awhile. Even fried chicken wings which is high PUFA. Im all for discussing rays ideas and all that. But when it comes to things like this I just feel super avoiding everything like you will get cancer and die from it is just unhealthy behavior. Humans are living longer than ever before. So if you live a healthy lifestyle that ray suggest you are likely protected. Stressing over not eating fruit or lots of other things in our modern world will likely kill you earlier, give you nutrient deficiencies or like the OP said not enough calories. Just my opinion though. But its a lot of compulsive OCD behavior on these forums but thats alright. Some of the best ideas come from it. But avoiding food specially fruit does not seem to be one

 

[milkboi]

I draw the line at as long as something has no PUFA and isn't fortified with iron, it is okay to eat as long as it doesn't cause gut problems. Anything more than that is pretty impractical, considering how just avoiding PUFA and iron means you already can't eat 90% of the food out there.

Good rule of thumb :) I basically do that too.

 

[milkboi]

Still, no way I‘m eating the unripe ***t that most of supermarkets sell as fruit.

 

[Nicole W.]

Based off of this correspondence with Ray, shared to the Yahoo groups taken from
Ray Peat Diet, Food Choices, And General Guidelines





Fruit is a bad choice for most people based on these writings. How is anybody supposed to know if the fruit they buy is tree-ripened unless they grew it themselves? Peaches, plums and apples are climacteric and ripen off the tree but this isn't good enough, they need to be tree-ripened and organic. Some countries don't even grow the safe fruits so even if they were confirmed tree-ripened - importing them is carcinogenic anyway!

Im not seeing any proof that cooking fruit removes all these negatives. Elsewhere Ray says that if you cook apples they still need to be ripe before hand. So I don't think cooking unripened fruit makes it 'safe' by Peat's standards.

Maybe if you found frozen fruit that tasted ripe and was organic it would be a good option, but thats been very hard to find in my case. I suppose fruit that is sold frozen is picked and frozen very quickly, so atleast you would know it was tree-ripened? the choices are very small, which is sad. When you consider starch as something potentially harmful (bad bacteria, weight etc) you don't have a lot of choices at all. I'm finding it impossible to hit the 4-5000 calories I need with these restrictions in place.

I wonder why Chimpanzees can consume pounds of figs daily and not suffer from the carcinogenic toxins hidden in the seeds. Apparently they have very low rates of cancer.

 

[Kingpinguin]

I wonder why Chimpanzees can consume pounds of figs daily and not suffer from the carcinogenic toxins hidden in the seeds. Apparently they have very low rates of cancer.

Thumbs up

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

You seem to be super stressed

haha, a well-placed pun.

Based off of this correspondence with Ray, shared to the Yahoo groups taken from
Ray Peat Diet, Food Choices, And General Guidelines





Fruit is a bad choice for most people based on these writings. How is anybody supposed to know if the fruit they buy is tree-ripened unless they grew it themselves? Peaches, plums and apples are climacteric and ripen off the tree but this isn't good enough, they need to be tree-ripened and organic. Some countries don't even grow the safe fruits so even if they were confirmed tree-ripened - importing them is carcinogenic anyway!

Im not seeing any proof that cooking fruit removes all these negatives. Elsewhere Ray says that if you cook apples they still need to be ripe before hand. So I don't think cooking unripened fruit makes it 'safe' by Peat's standards.

Maybe if you found frozen fruit that tasted ripe and was organic it would be a good option, but thats been very hard to find in my case. I suppose fruit that is sold frozen is picked and frozen very quickly, so atleast you would know it was tree-ripened? the choices are very small, which is sad. When you consider starch as something potentially harmful (bad bacteria, weight etc) you don't have a lot of choices at all. I'm finding it impossible to hit the 4-5000 calories I need with these restrictions in place.

I agree with you: unless somebody has a very strong gut, any fruit that wasn't properly ripened will cause issues, such as bloating and diarrhea/ constipation. It makes sense, though,as humans would never pick an unripe fruit, because it smells like nothing, or worse, smells toxic, and it's not sweet at all. I think even somebody who reacts badly to commercial apples or mangoes would react at least better to a wild, tree-ripened, organic version of it.

I didn't notice any improvement with regards to cooking unripe fruit, they still cause me to bloat up.

I feel like shipping foods is generally problematic, especially plant foods, since it's really anti-natural to do that. Of course, just because something is anti-natural, it doesn't mean it's necessarily bad, but it should make one skeptical about the safety and appropriateness of eating foods that don't even exist normally in your location.

Ray has mentioned the awful quality of most fruits sold commercially in a response to an email somebody sent him, I believe, so he's aware of how bad things are in very industrialized cities, that's why he says that starch can be prepared correctly as to have less chance of causing issues, although he says ripe fruit is better.

Hitting 5000 calories a day without eating a lot of fat or a lot of refined sugar is really hard, and considering that fruit is very calorie-poor, even drinking 3 liters of orange juice would only add around 1000 calories, so, unless you have a huge stomach space, fruit would be mostly for minerals and vitamins, although the sugar contribution is very valuable. I would use some refined sugar if I were you, to keep your fructose intake adequate.

I myself have stopped eating fruits for now and I've been eating the same amount of white sugar as before( 400 grams a day), and I've been noticing great benefits: I no longer have any constipation at all ever, and I have 2 bowel movements a day even without magnesium( I still take magnesium anyway, because it makes me feel better overall). Cypro initially did this for me, but I think I was still ingesting enough inflammatory things to make this effect level off over time. I sleep better now, I seem to have more grip strength, bloating is reduced, gut feels nicer, etc.

I basically eat a carnivore diet with added sugar, zero fiber, zero fruit. I did increase my fat intake to make up for the calories, since I was getting around 200 grams of carbs from fruits and potatoes.

I feel like I would do good on very high quality, very ripe fruits, but I just don't have access to that currently, and the regular supermarket fruits aren't really cutting anymore.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I wonder why Chimpanzees can consume pounds of figs daily and not suffer from the carcinogenic toxins hidden in the seeds. Apparently they have very low rates of cancer.

Well, monkeys in general also eat a lot of raw vegetation, which is very tough. The digestive tract of monkeys has adapted to harboring a lot of bacteria, and the more bacteria, the thicker the mucous layer on the gut will be, so if even twigs don't bother their gut, some little seeds probably wont either.

 

[Kingpinguin]

Well, monkeys in general also eat a lot of raw vegetation, which is very tough. The digestive tract of monkeys has adapted to harboring a lot of bacteria, and the more bacteria, the thicker the mucous layer on the gut will be, so if even twigs don't bother their gut, some little seeds probably wont either.

I think I could chew down twigs without gut issues hahaha. I never get a bad gut or gut discomfort. Only super high protein intake affects me but it just increases my fart frequency and intensity roflmao.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I eat all types of fruits my thyroid is good, my hormonal profile is great, lots of energy, libido and great mood. Excellent digestion. Dunno some people might be sensitive I’m not. My opinion is that people takes rays work like the supreme ultimate law of everything. While not considering that ray might just be discussing some opinions losely of subjects he think is not optimal in our society. The link superstressed posts about rays own words is actually not rays own words it just links to another forum post where people design a diet and put words in rays mouth that this is how he eats. The link in the other thread does not even work anymore. On top of that ray eats most things once in awhile. Even fried chicken wings which is high PUFA. Im all for discussing rays ideas and all that. But when it comes to things like this I just feel super avoiding everything like you will get cancer and die from it is just unhealthy behavior. Humans are living longer than ever before. So if you live a healthy lifestyle that ray suggest you are likely protected. Stressing over not eating fruit or lots of other things in our modern world will likely kill you earlier, give you nutrient deficiencies or like the OP said not enough calories. Just my opinion though. But its a lot of compulsive OCD behavior on these forums but thats alright. Some of the best ideas come from it. But avoiding food specially fruit does not seem to be one

If you tolerate those foods well, then not much reason to stop eating them. But they do affect many people's guts in a bad way, so it isn't really OCD, it's just that people naturally know if something is being good or bad for them. If they are eating something that is making them feel very bad, then it's only natural to remove it from their diet.

Yes, Ray emphasizes that people need to think for themselves, so following him very strictly without valuing your own opinion is not the right way.

I only disagree with you with regards to what you said about Ray eating most things once in a while and when you say that humans are living more than ever. Ray actually, as far as I know, does not eat any starch ever other than the occasional nixtamalized corn and some turnips, and doesn't eat chicken wings fried in soybean oil. As I see it, he cooks them himself, and considering that he said that frying bacon in coconut oil replaces the PUFAs in bacon with the saturated fat from coconuts, he may do something similar with the chicken wings. Also, people nowadays are the sickest of all generations, for what I know, and considering that areas with the least amount of medical interventions, where people live traditionally, house many healthy, long lived people, I think the longevity nowadays being at its peak is debatable.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I think I could chew down twigs without gut issues hahaha. I never get a bad gut or gut discomfort. Only super high protein intake affects me but it just increases my fart frequency and intensity roflmao.

lol, that's amazing :)

It means your gut is really healthy.

 

[Kingpinguin]

If you tolerate those foods well, then not much reason to stop eating them. But they do affect many people's guts in a bad way, so it isn't really OCD, it's just that people naturally know if something is being good or bad for them. If they are eating something that is making them feel very bad, then it's only natural to remove it from their diet.

Yes, Ray emphasizes that people need to think for themselves, so following him very strictly without valuing your own opinion is not the right way.

I only disagree with you with regards to what you said about Ray eating most things once in a while and when you say that humans are living more than ever. Ray actually, as far as I know, does not eat any starch ever other than the occasional nixtamalized corn and some turnips, and doesn't eat chicken wings fried in soybean oil. As I see it, he cooks them himself, and considering that he said that frying bacon in coconut oil replaces the PUFAs in bacon with the saturated fat from coconuts, he may do something similar with the chicken wings. Also, people nowadays are the sickest of all generations, for what I know, and considering that areas with the least amount of medical interventions, where people live traditionally, house many healthy, long lived people, I think the longevity nowadays being at its peak is debatable.

Yes we are sicker then ever but we are still able to live the longest we have ever. The average life span has increased still and likely will. But quality of life is more important than quantity of life. Youd rather live 70 and be healthy than live to 90 and be sick half your life and treated by pharma. I think with time things will change as in the world will adopt a more ray peat type of view in general. Technology is what keeps us alive today. But we use technology to treat. While if we used our wisdom we could just avoid becoming sick in the first place. Typical humankind to act first (poison the planet) then rethink and try to fix it. Rather than in advance predict the outcome. But yes in general greed is what has ruined most things. Anyway back to subject. Yes i know some people cant eat fruit my GF cant eat any fruits with peel. Likely because of the pectin content. But making a thread stating ”Fruits is bad for most people” is just not contributing to anything. People have to try for themselves and eat what they want rather than having forum posts telling them what to do. Do what works for you. Just thought the original post is counterproductive. Make a thread like”a summary of the possible bad/side effects of fruits/fruit based diet” people miss use the forum to twist subject to fit their own thoughts, experiences and agendas. Its just too much white noise going on and people should be more thoughtful before they make a post IMO.

 

[Kingpinguin]

lol, that's amazing :)

It means your gut is really healthy.

Thanks
Yes it is. Im always suprised how I can get away with eating almost anything without experiencing what other people talks about. Im just really lucky i guess.

 

[Dave Clark]

I thought Ray said that if your fruits were not quite ripe that cooking them would make them more digestible. It is pretty hard, unless you eat locally produced fruit, to get any that is completely ripe, the producers have to pick them under ripe in order to survive the shipping without rotting.

 

[SuperStressed]

@Rafael Lao Wai What are you eating for that white sugar? I can get it in my diet through iced latte's (or hot if you wish) milk chocolate, a bit of honey with greek yogurt, coke but after that im lost. I cant handle many fluids so it makes it harder. Ice cream is a possible option but fruitless icecream like Hagen Dasz Vanilla is so unappetizing in my opinion

 

[Runenight201]

Yea I don't like fruit that much anymore to be honest. I'm convinced that starch, meat, dairy, and fat are the hallmarks to good health, and they were what fueled our brain's expansion to differentiate ourselves to who we are today. Using fruit as a garnish as a dish, such as the tomato, or even consuming apple sauce, is ok, but I've noticed negative health effects from over consumption of fruit. My back becomes extra tight when I overconsume fruit, to the point where I wake up with a sore and tight lower back. This never happens if I'm drinking milk and eating cheese, so I'm certain that the excess fruit does me no good. Fruit also doesn't sufficient energy to last for the next couple hours. Back in my fruitarian experiments, I would have to be eating constantly every hour just to sustain blood sugar. Although that's the abuse of fruit, which isn't fair because any food abused will cause problems. In any matter, fruit is at best used as a desert or snack, but cannot become the main component of the diet, at least if you want to have sufficient energy to work/think/play for hours without having to re-up on energy.

 

[SuperStressed]

I thought Ray said that if your fruits were not quite ripe that cooking them would make them more digestible. It is pretty hard, unless you eat locally produced fruit, to get any that is completely ripe, the producers have to pick them under ripe in order to survive the shipping without rotting.

I think it improves them but I dont think it completely makes them act as ripe, he has said that even though you cook apples they should still be ripe, I just emailed him about this, ill share his reply if he chooses to.