Beta-Alanine, Carnosine, Lactate And Histamine

Discussion in 'Amino Acids' started by himsahimsa, Mar 10, 2014.

  1. himsahimsa

    himsahimsa Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2014
    Messages:
    148
    Beta-alanine is the limiting substrate for the production of Carnosine. Carnosine (not carnitine) is the primary intracellular buffer for lactate. Histidine can take two (at least) metabolic pathways. It can end up as histamine or, if there is a good supply of beta-alanine, the histidine is combined with the beta-alanine to form carnosine. So supplying beta-alanine simultaneously depletes histamine and repletes carnosine. Both are advantageous from a R.Peat perspective as I see it. I have been taking three or four grams of beta-alanine a day for about 6 years. I had read in an exercise magazine that beta-alanine improves oxygen transfer capacity and that seemed like a good idea. Subsequent research indicated that it didn't produce much of an improvement in performance (of runners) but the accumulation of carnosine did have a noticeable beneficial effect. If, for instance, you do resistance exercise to failure, that painful burn does not occur because the lactate is eliminated so quickly. I can vouch for that.

    If you are interested in trying it , you have to break up the doses so you don't get more than about a gram at a time or it produces that tingly sensation that niacin gives and evidently it will be wasted by the kidneys. A quarter teaspoon is about 0.9 gram. It has no flavor and is very soluble so I just dump it in my food or in some water and drink it. You can take carnosine itself but it is disassembled in the intestines and taking beta-alanine is much more effective and much cheaper.

    I buy it in bulk from Hard Rhino on Amazon.
     
  2. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    7,368
    I bet this could mitigate many symptoms of diabetes!
     
  3. haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,613
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
    I was a very big fan of carnosine several years ago. The problem with it is that nobody knows with reasonable certainty how it works. For instance, it is thought that it buffers the increase of H+ (hydrogen) ions during exercise and this (rather than buffering lactate) is its true mechanism of action in being ergogenic in exercise. It also increase lifespan in many animal models and protects the liver and brain from alcohol damage. There is a lot of research on it coming from Russia, and to me that is always a good sign since those guys over there work on pretty much what they want to, not what would make them money (even though that may change under Putin).
    Beta-alanine is a Peat-approved substance and in one of his articles he says that beta-alanine and taurine are very close analogs to GABA. However, it seems that their similar structure makes them deplete each other in the tissues.
    http://community.myprotein.com/suppleme ... ptake.html
    http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2011/06 ... cytes.html

    Also, beta alanine does NOT have the same effects as carnosine even though it leads to its synthesis. Multiple studies have compared the in vivo effects of carnosine and beta alanine supplementation and have not found much similarity. What makes the situation even more confusing is that by all accounts, supplemental carnosine should NOT have any effects on endogenous carnosine levels since it is immediately metabolised into beta alanine and histidine.
    http://peer.ccsd.cnrs.fr/docs/00/49/30/ ... 11.001.pdf
    http://morelife.org/references/full_papers/15955546.pdf

    A more likely explanation of carnosine's benefits is that is inhibits glycolysis (and hence lactate production), increases ATP generation, prevents formation of toxic glycation end products, and stimulates mitchondrial biogenesis. Here is a paper on that:
    http://journal.chemistrycentral.com/con ... X-7-38.pdf

    Since carnosine inhibits glycolysis and has shown strong benefit in a number of animal cancer models that may make it an alternative to toxic chemicals like DCA and 2-DG currently used in cancer trials.
    None of the above benefits have been reported for beta alanine, but then again, mos of the beta alanine research is for performance enhancement reasons.
     
  4. Kasper

    Kasper Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2013
    Messages:
    671
    Gender:
    Male
    I found it interesting that carnosine is not found in dairy products.
    At least that is what a study in 1926 says.

    I can't find a scientific source, but it is claimed that carnosine is particularly found in red meat.

     
  5. sm1693

    sm1693 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2014
    Messages:
    176
    Does anyone have access to anything Ray has written about Carnosine or Beta Alanine?

    I thought he had written about them in a recent newsletter, but Im not sure. A web search shows nada.
     
  6. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    7,368
    Well, cărnis means meat in latin.
     
  7. SAFarmer

    SAFarmer Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Messages:
    182
    Ray Peat talks about beta amino propanoic acid here, http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml

    beta amino propanoic acid = Beta Alanine

    Just eat enough Gelatin !
     
  8. Theo

    Theo Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2015
    Messages:
    48
    So beta alanine and taurine are Peat approuved ?
    May I ask if taking 3 grams of taurine once a day and , as suggested by a previous post in this thread, less than a gram of beta alanine twice a day..sound safe ?

    Those are not big amounts if you look at what is suggested by the suppliers.
    I am 63 and an avid cyclist so in addition to the longevity benefits I am looking for the enhanced recovery that BA apparently provides.
    I don't eat much meat so Beta Alanine sounds very promising to me.
     
  9. haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,613
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
    The doses used in human studies, several of them with cyclists, were 4g+ taken several times a day. Other than some tingling in extremities there were no side effects.
     
  10. Theo

    Theo Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2015
    Messages:
    48
    Haidut,

    What about the fact that it may lower taurine in the cardiac muscle ? Is that irrelevant if we just take lower amounts of beta alanine.

    PS thank you for the reply.

    Pps I would be happy with 2 grams a day..it seems to help.
     
  11. haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,613
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
    I don't think the much-written about antagonism between taurine and beta alanine is relevant in the doses used by most people. One study showed that IF it happens at all it would be at doses of 10g of each amino acid taken at the same time. If you do that you would be sedated form taurine and itchy from alanine. Not many people get in that situation.
     
  12. NathanK

    NathanK Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2015
    Messages:
    634
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    I think I recall a superhuman radio podcast with Dr Andro and he said BA, like taurine and zince, top off after a while. In the case of BA its carnosine after ~4-6 weeks with a typical 4-6g daily dosage.
     
  13. haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,613
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
    Yes, for taurine it is known as the loading period and in humans it has been shown that if taken in doses of 10g - 15 g a day for a month it results in tissue buildup and the no benefits are seen beyond 30 days. However, if you stop taking it the elevated levels can be maintained for several months.
     
  14. Theo

    Theo Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2015
    Messages:
    48
    Apparently, beta alanine levels will diminish quite a bit faster than that . As a result , I,m thinking 6 weeks on and 2 weeks off for beta alanine consumption.
     
  15. Parsifal

    Parsifal Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,073
    Do you know if it would the same for other amino acids please?

    Then it is useless to supplement with carnosine if it is immediately metabolised back into beta alanine and histidine and it would be better to supplement with beta alanine instead?
     
  16. ddjd

    ddjd Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages:
    3,107
    I took beta alanine for about a year. Around 2g a day. It helped in some ways, reduced anxiety, stopped my hair shedding.

    However over time I noticed it was causing me terrible back ache and what felt like bone problems. So I stopped supplementing and all those issues went away
     
  17. Thewonder92

    Thewonder92 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2017
    Messages:
    2
    Gender:
    Male
    There's a lot of misinformation in this thread. But I'll address this in particular, which should answer other questions.

    When the carnosinase enzyme is overloaded, generally at over a gram of carnosine, additional carnosine is able to slip through and be stored for later use. Taking smaller doses will speed up the breakdown of carnosine into histidine and beta-alanine, and prevent storage of carnosine.

    Unless the carnosinase enzyme has reached full saturation, you will not be able to bypass the breakdown of carnosine to histidine and beta alanine to any meaningful level.

    Let's say you want to store 500mg of carnosine in tissues and avoid it being broken down to its components, this would require saturation of around 1 gram, followed shortly after by another 500mg.

    Because of the time it takes for carnosinase to downregulate, a person could eventually saturate several grams of carnosine into tissue over the span of a few days, assuming they continously redose on the half life and initially saturate the carnosinase enzyme.

    This would result in a large amount of histidine and beta alanine in circulation, with a large amount of carnosine occupying the carnosinase enzyme, followed by a moderate level of carnosine tissue saturation and the ability to lower ones dose while maintaining such a moderate tissue saturation of carnosine through the reproduction of carnosing in serum and continuous saturation of carnosinase, preventing large amounts of tissue carnosine being broken down.
     
  18. Mossy

    Mossy Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    857
    Gender:
    Male
    Thanks for the information.

    So, this would be the way to store carnosine--could we assume beta-alanine would store using this same approach? Also, do you have any additional information as to the ultimate benefit of storing these amino acids; would it be solely for athletic benefit, or are the pro-Peat anti-serotonin aspects something to be achieved as well?
     
  19. ddjd

    ddjd Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages:
    3,107
    I took beta alanine for two years to help reduce Histamine symptoms. About 2-3g a day. In the end I realised it was causing me all sorts of problems with my bones. I was getting terrible back ache and stiffness all over.

    As soon as I stopped all the bad symptoms went also.

    Not going back to it
     
  20. Mossy

    Mossy Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    857
    Gender:
    Male
    Hi Joeyd, thanks for sharing. Funny you mention that -- I've had bone pain since using this that last few days. But, for reference, K2, A, and other supps can give me bone pain as well. Maybe PTSD was not an issue for you, but Haidut has a thread that speaks to beta-alanine being used for that. Can you speak to this effectiveness or was this not an issue for you? Ultimately, even if it did help with that, it seems the cons outweigh the pros.
     
Loading...