Are Oxalates A Concern?

[Jennifer]

However looking back,my food sources unknowingly became lower about the last 3 year (but I still took a good anount of ascorbic acid daily).

I was going to ask you this in my last PM. I was thinking you've been low oxalate for a few years now since the only plant I could remember you consuming was the cabbage, but then I wasn't sure exactly how long it has been since you stopped relying on the broccoli prior to that. Given how much healing people have experienced eating low oxalate, I'm thinking the vitamin C in meat isn't an issue like supplements? I meant to ask Richie this.

 

[Blossom]

I was going to ask you this in my last PM. I was thinking you've been low oxalate for a few years now since the only plant I could remember you consuming was the cabbage, but then I wasn't sure exactly how long it has been since you stopped relying on the broccoli prior to that. Given how much healing people have experienced eating low oxalate, I'm thinking the vitamin C in meat isn't an issue like supplements? I meant to ask Richie this.

This is a good article that includes a link to another article explaining vitamin c needs on carnivore.
Empirica: Not the Collagen, but the Carnitine?

 

[Dutchie]

I was going to ask you this in my last PM. I was thinking you've been low oxalate for a few years now since the only plant I could remember you consuming was the cabbage, but then I wasn't sure exactly how long it has been since you stopped relying on the broccoli prior to that. Given how much healing people have experienced eating low oxalate, I'm thinking the vitamin C in meat isn't an issue like supplements? I meant to ask Richie this.

Yeah,before the cabbage I relied mostly on broccoli,which is higher and before that on kale which is much higher.
According to carnivores need for vit.C increases the more carbs are in the diet, but as you know I'm not carnivore. Meat might have some vit.C as does the cabbage,but I imagine quite some gets lost in cooking.

 

[Jennifer]

Great! Thanks, @Blossom!

 

[Blossom]

Great! Thanks, @Blossom!

You’re welcome.

 

[Jennifer]

According to carnivores need for vit.C increases the more carbs are in the diet, but as you know I'm not carnivore. Meat might have some vit.C as does the cabbage,but I imagine quite some gets lost in cooking.

Okay. Just for reference, this was the quote I was thinking of when you and Richie mentioned ascorbic acid and oxalates:

"I found that many people are highly allergic to commercial ascorbic acid, reacting intensely to as little as a milligram or two, while they have no reaction to natural foods containing large amounts of ascorbate. When I hadn’t been taking vitamin C supplements for a few months, I analyzed my uring and found that it contained about 1000 milligrams per day. I found that much of the vitamin C in food, for example in meat, is in the form of dehydroascorbate, which isn’t visible to the standard analytic methods that depend on the reducing power of the vitamin. As muscle metabolizes, some of the dehydroascorbate that it contains is reduced to ascorbic acid, and some of that is lost in the urine. When I stopped eating grains, beans, and nuts, the amount of vitamin C in my urine increased considerably. Properly analyzed, a good human daily diet contains 3000 to 4000 mg of vitamin C. Linus Pauling was unaware of the importance of the dehydro- form of the vitamin in food, and he denied that the commercial ascorbic acid could be allergenic. A free radical chemist found that reagent grade ascorbic acid contained enough heavy metals, including iron, to catalyze the formation of an extremely high concentration of free radicals when it’s dissolved in distilled water. Traces of oxidation products, such as those formed when a solution of glucose is heat sterilized, probably account for the allergic reactions. Szent-Gyorgyi recognized the identity of vitamin C as ascorbic acid, though the first names he proposed for it were ignose and godnose." Ray Peat

 

[Blossom]

Okay. Just for reference, this was the quote I was thinking of when you and Richie mentioned ascorbic acid and oxalates:

"I found that many people are highly allergic to commercial ascorbic acid, reacting intensely to as little as a milligram or two, while they have no reaction to natural foods containing large amounts of ascorbate. When I hadn’t been taking vitamin C supplements for a few months, I analyzed my uring and found that it contained about 1000 milligrams per day. I found that much of the vitamin C in food, for example in meat, is in the form of dehydroascorbate, which isn’t visible to the standard analytic methods that depend on the reducing power of the vitamin. As muscle metabolizes, some of the dehydroascorbate that it contains is reduced to ascorbic acid, and some of that is lost in the urine. When I stopped eating grains, beans, and nuts, the amount of vitamin C in my urine increased considerably. Properly analyzed, a good human daily diet contains 3000 to 4000 mg of vitamin C. Linus Pauling was unaware of the importance of the dehydro- form of the vitamin in food, and he denied that the commercial ascorbic acid could be allergenic. A free radical chemist found that reagent grade ascorbic acid contained enough heavy metals, including iron, to catalyze the formation of an extremely high concentration of free radicals when it’s dissolved in distilled water. Traces of oxidation products, such as those formed when a solution of glucose is heat sterilized, probably account for the allergic reactions. Szent-Gyorgyi recognized the identity of vitamin C as ascorbic acid, though the first names he proposed for it were ignose and godnose." Ray Peat

Awesome quote!

 

[Ras]

If I eat high oxalate foods with a meal containing calcium, will the amount of calcium absorbed be limited?

Ie Greek yogurt with blueberries/raspberries ... will the oxalates bind calcium?

 

[reality]

Interesting discussion

I posted this thread as lately my sleep has gotten worse and was waking up pissing more than normal, including cloudy urine in the mornings which I’ve heard is from oxalates. I connected some dots and my diet has been chock full of oxalates recent (spinach, sweet potatoes, berries, cacao...) so I decided to experiment and yesterday I completely cut my oxalates. Rice instead of sweet pot, no cacao, very small portion of berries with my yogurt... and I had the best sleep I’ve had in weeks. did not wake up for a pee once, had a lot more deep sleep and long R.E.M. cycles (Fitbit confirmed), and I feel great

Intriguing

 

[Dutchie]

Interesting discussion

I posted this thread as lately my sleep has gotten worse and was waking up pissing more than normal, including cloudy urine in the mornings which I’ve heard is from oxalates. I connected some dots and my diet has been chock full of oxalates recent (spinach, sweet potatoes, berries, cacao...) so I decided to experiment and yesterday I completely cut my oxalates. Rice instead of sweet pot, no cacao, very small portion of berries with my yogurt... and I had the best sleep I’ve had in weeks. did not wake up for a pee once, had a lot more deep sleep and long R.E.M. cycles (Fitbit confirmed), and I feel great

Intriguing

Be careful with cutting out everything at once of ox.food,because it can cause major dumping.
I've seen it halpen with many,at first they feel great and then major dumping starts happening.
It's better to work on gradually decreasing the amount in your diet. I've heard Sally recommend it.

 

[Dutchie]

Okay. Just for reference, this was the quote I was thinking of when you and Richie mentioned ascorbic acid and oxalates:

"I found that many people are highly allergic to commercial ascorbic acid, reacting intensely to as little as a milligram or two, while they have no reaction to natural foods containing large amounts of ascorbate. When I hadn’t been taking vitamin C supplements for a few months, I analyzed my uring and found that it contained about 1000 milligrams per day. I found that much of the vitamin C in food, for example in meat, is in the form of dehydroascorbate, which isn’t visible to the standard analytic methods that depend on the reducing power of the vitamin. As muscle metabolizes, some of the dehydroascorbate that it contains is reduced to ascorbic acid, and some of that is lost in the urine. When I stopped eating grains, beans, and nuts, the amount of vitamin C in my urine increased considerably. Properly analyzed, a good human daily diet contains 3000 to 4000 mg of vitamin C. Linus Pauling was unaware of the importance of the dehydro- form of the vitamin in food, and he denied that the commercial ascorbic acid could be allergenic. A free radical chemist found that reagent grade ascorbic acid contained enough heavy metals, including iron, to catalyze the formation of an extremely high concentration of free radicals when it’s dissolved in distilled water. Traces of oxidation products, such as those formed when a solution of glucose is heat sterilized, probably account for the allergic reactions. Szent-Gyorgyi recognized the identity of vitamin C as ascorbic acid, though the first names he proposed for it were ignose and godnose." Ray Peat

Oh okay...thanks.
Yeah,Ive come across articles that stated ascorbic acid isn't healthy in general. It It a cheap easy accessible source. Ive been using calcium ascorbate (non-acidic form),bc to get 3000 - 4000 of C from food,would mean one has to eat a lot more veggies and fruits.

 

[Jennifer]

Interesting discussion

I posted this thread as lately my sleep has gotten worse and was waking up pissing more than normal, including cloudy urine in the mornings which I’ve heard is from oxalates. I connected some dots and my diet has been chock full of oxalates recent (spinach, sweet potatoes, berries, cacao...) so I decided to experiment and yesterday I completely cut my oxalates. Rice instead of sweet pot, no cacao, very small portion of berries with my yogurt... and I had the best sleep I’ve had in weeks. did not wake up for a pee once, had a lot more deep sleep and long R.E.M. cycles (Fitbit confirmed), and I feel great

Intriguing

That's great! The cloudy urine could be due to that and/or other types of salt crystals. I linked to the site below on my log yesterday that describes different types of salt crystals, which cause urine to appear cloudy/crystalluria:

Crystals In Urine: Causes, Picture, Symptoms and Treatment

Also, have you ever measured your urine pH? Here's Ray's take on cloudy urine:

"PATRICK TIMPONE: What does cloudy urine indicate? Is it the body wasting calcium or yeast infection? The emailer wants to know.

RAY PEAT: If you are drinking lots of milk, for example, or a high meat diet, the phosphate has to get excreted and the phosphate shows up in the urine, and precipitates in the presence of either magnesium or calcium. And it only precipitates if the pH is above a certain point. And so, if you have a very high protein diet, most of the time your urine will be acidic and it will be cleared despite having a tremendous amount of phosphate in it. But when something raises the pH of your urine, which can be eating a lot of fruit or vegetables or hyperventilating is another thing. If you blow out too much carbon dioxide, the pH of your urine goes up to keep your blood at the right pH, slightly alkaline. When your urine pH is neutral or higher on the alkaline side, then any phosphate and calcium is going to precipitate and make it cloudy."

Another possibility, though maybe a non-issue for you, is if you replaced all those foods with white rice, the lack of fiber (and maybe even the lack of stimulation from the cacao) and its potentially gut irritating and/or bloating effect, could also be a factor in getting better sleep. A few members have reported this, myself included, and I recall Ray mentioning gut irritation being involved in things like restless leg syndrome.

 

[koky]

blossom - i eat quite a bit of well cooked chard from my own organic garden - do yu think i'm still getting a lot of oxalates?

 

[Dutchie]

Something miraculous happened today...I got my period back after 8 months of being absent.
I believe this is due to sticking to a low ox.diet,which probably made for (certain) nutrients being able to be used in bodily functions instead of going to waste on oxalate damage control. It might've also made my thyroid function a little better, as I've heard that oxalates like to especially nestle in the thyroid and other weak organs and tissues.

 

[Jennifer]

Something miraculous happened today...I got my period back after 8 months of being absent.
I believe this is due to sticking to a low ox.diet,which probably made for (certain) nutrients being able to be used in bodily functions instead of going to waste on oxalate damage control. It might've also made my thyroid function a little better, as I've heard that oxalates like to especially nestle in the thyroid and other weak organs and tissues.

YAY!!! (We're missing the high five emoji so the bro bump will have to do lol)

 

[Dutchie]

YAY!!! (We're missing the high five emoji so the bro bump will have to do lol)

LOL....the bro bump is cooler anyway.

 

[Dave Clark]

I was thinking about how fulvic acid can help with metal detox, and I wondered if it could do anything to oxalates and I found this"
https://d2cax41o7ahm5l.cloudfront.n...g-kidney-stones-nanomed-2017-nanomed-2017.pdf
It seems like fulvic acid is valuable for cellular cleansing, etc. and it may not have been studied, but it is plausible that it could help breakdown and eliminate oxalates. It may be worth a try. Most people use shilajit, but I think the purified Wu Ji San is the best and safest fulvic product out there. https://www.manalifelab.com/wu-jin-san

 

[Blossom]

blossom - i eat quite a bit of well cooked chard from my own organic garden - do yu think i'm still getting a lot of oxalates?

It’s very possible. Do you feel good? Not everyone has a problem with oxalate.

 

[Recoen]

I started in the spring of 19 and by August my urinary symptoms were 90% improved-so about 4 months. I now believe my early drastic improvement with (my version of) Peat style eating was due to reducing oxalate. Are you a member of the Trying Low Oxalate Facebook group?

Will you please share what you eat that’s low oxalate and has RP concepts in mind?

 

[Recoen]

Exogenous oxalate is problematic. People also make it endogenously from deficiencies (B6 for example).