Beware of oxalate dumping (it's not fun)

[Blossom]

Thats very interesting about the b vitamins. I've recently stumbled upon the whole thiamine thing and tried a few higher doses like 300mg and it does actually seem to help me. I've run out but will be getting more soon. I did take b6 for a bit a few years ago as per elliot overton but didn't notice anything, might try it again.

I went back on thiamine (with a b-complex and magnesium per Lonsdale) recently and it seems to help with even energy through out the day. I had thought I didn’t need it anymore but noticed a gradual insidious decline in energy and motivation lately so I revisited thiamine and I’m glad I did. My grandma passed away at 39 from heart issues related to beriberi so there might be a hereditary component in my case.

ox dumping and includes more bladder pain as well for me.

Me too, it’s the worst part.

 

[AncestralJoy]

I went back on thiamine (with a b-complex and magnesium per Lonsdale) recently and it seems to help with even energy through out the day. I had thought I didn’t need it anymore but noticed a gradual insidious decline in energy and motivation lately so I revisited thiamine and I’m glad I did. My grandma passed away at 39 from heart issues related to beriberi so there might be a hereditary component in my case.

Me too, it’s the worst part.

oh shame that's incredibly young! yes its interesting you say that you feel the benefits wear off after a time.
I've been browsing Elliot Overtons posts on his website about it and that's what he says for some (maybe all? can't remember) conditions its sort of a life long necessity to continue with thiamine.
Kind of a wild thought, like what if all the pharmacies disappear? Wheres muh drugs gonna come from so I can feel fiiiiine...?
But I guess it is a blessing to a. know about it for a start. and b. that it is such a cheap accessible substance instead of some ludicrous thing sold at high price.

Not sure if you're familiar with Elliots work but he had a post on how thiamine can effect the bladder too which was super encouraging to me as my bladder has improved at times and gotten worse whenever oxalates increase or maybe even just stress increases... seems a few triggers.

Thiamine TTFD, Bladder Emptying Disorders & Interstitial Cystitis

People who are low in thiamine can present with a complex array of symptoms which stem from underlying autonomic nervous system dysfunction. The primary complaints may center around central/peripheral neurological issues, cardiovascular abnormalities, gastrointestinal distress, or a mixture of...

www.eonutrition.co.uk

also fwiw in light or so many ridiculous fillers I've found a horse thiamine (who knew they were onto the T lol!) which seems to only have maltodextrin added.
I know its not the fancy one elliot recommends on his blog but I've ordered some to check out. When you're taking grams of the stuff or even low doses for a long time the excipients are going to add up to an uncomfortable amount so fingers crossed.

 

[Blossom]

oh shame that's incredibly young! yes its interesting you say that you feel the benefits wear off after a time.
I've been browsing Elliot Overtons posts on his website about it and that's what he says for some (maybe all? can't remember) conditions its sort of a life long necessity to continue with thiamine.
Kind of a wild thought, like what if all the pharmacies disappear? Wheres muh drugs gonna come from so I can feel fiiiiine...?
But I guess it is a blessing to a. know about it for a start. and b. that it is such a cheap accessible substance instead of some ludicrous thing sold at high price.

Not sure if you're familiar with Elliots work but he had a post on how thiamine can effect the bladder too which was super encouraging to me as my bladder has improved at times and gotten worse whenever oxalates increase or maybe even just stress increases... seems a few triggers.

Thiamine TTFD, Bladder Emptying Disorders & Interstitial Cystitis

People who are low in thiamine can present with a complex array of symptoms which stem from underlying autonomic nervous system dysfunction. The primary complaints may center around central/peripheral neurological issues, cardiovascular abnormalities, gastrointestinal distress, or a mixture of...

www.eonutrition.co.uk

also fwiw in light or so many ridiculous fillers I've found a horse thiamine (who knew they were onto the T lol!) which seems to only have maltodextrin added.
I know its not the fancy one elliot recommends on his blog but I've ordered some to check out. When you're taking grams of the stuff or even low doses for a long time the excipients are going to add up to an uncomfortable amount so fingers crossed.

Thank you so much!!! I do read Elliot’s material but hadn’t seen that particular article. I’m glad you found a source of thiamine you are happy with! Life Giving Store also has a nice, pure additive free thiamine hcl powder I’ve been using.

 

[AncestralJoy]

Thank you so much!!! I do read Elliot’s material but hadn’t seen that particular article. I’m glad you found a source of thiamine you are happy with! Life Giving Store also has a nice, pure additive free thiamine hcl powder I’ve been using.

ooooh what a fantastic store! I hadn't heard of it before! thanks for the share.
Theres so much good stuff in the USA! it ends up costing double in NZ $$ plus postage to get it shipped over the New Zealand so I'm hoping the horses are getting the high quality deal haha but this is a great store and I may look into an order for a few things at some point ?

 

[yerrag]

I don't know why people experience oxalate toxicity. I eat chocolate and drink tea, and I eat greens and eggplants and nightshade veggies that are high in oxalates but why don't I experience the downsides? There is even talk of vitamin C causing oxalate toxicity

If this isn't a case of genotypes and phenotypes that give people a disposition to oxalate toxicity, what then would predispose people to experience oxalate toxicity?

In what way is oxalate toxicity manifested? I can only think of calcium oxalate stones in kidneys than can be paunful. When this happens, isn't it because the urine is too alkaline and this causes the calcium oxalate to crystallize and form stones? If this were the case, is anyone testing the pH of his urine? Would working to lower urine pH help? Is anyone testing urine pH?

I-Ve been experimenting using oxalates actually to remove calcium from the plaques that lines our blood vessels. I can see how useful oxalates are. If we understand oxalates better, they can be our friend instead of being treated as something to be afraid of.

Once I made tea in a pot that had plenty of calcium scales. After use, I noticed the scales were gone. I don't know why but that observation stuck with me. I thought then maybe it's why drinking tea with meals is a common practice in China. I would wonder if what happened to the pot could be happening to our blood vessels, and that oxalates would keep our blood vessels free from calcification. Here, I refer to extracellular calcification and not intracellular calcification often mentioned by Ray Peat.

Anyway, I think it's important that our acid-base balance is kept in optimal range and if it's out of range, it causes precipitation of salts and this would lead to joint issues as well as stones. An acidic pH would easily lead to uric acid stones whereas an alkaline pH would cause calcium oxalate stones.

 

[Blossom]

I don't know why people experience oxalate toxicity.

I think mine was mainly from being floxed tbh. I’ve read that some people are endogenous producers though.

 

[LauriePartridge]

Strange post...What do oxalates have to with constipation ?
Obviously you went too low fiber , probably lots of white rice without bulking foods like milk or resistant starches

Constipation is a symptom of oxalate poisoning/dumping.

 

[LauriePartridge]

I don't know why people experience oxalate toxicity. I eat chocolate and drink tea, and I eat greens and eggplants and nightshade veggies that are high in oxalates but why don't I experience the downsides? There is even talk of vitamin C causing oxalate toxicity

If this isn't a case of genotypes and phenotypes that give people a disposition to oxalate toxicity, what then would predispose people to experience oxalate toxicity?

In what way is oxalate toxicity manifested? I can only think of calcium oxalate stones in kidneys than can be paunful. When this happens, isn't it because the urine is too alkaline and this causes the calcium oxalate to crystallize and form stones? If this were the case, is anyone testing the pH of his urine? Would working to lower urine pH help? Is anyone testing urine pH?

I-Ve been experimenting using oxalates actually to remove calcium from the plaques that lines our blood vessels. I can see how useful oxalates are. If we understand oxalates better, they can be our friend instead of being treated as something to be afraid of.

Once I made tea in a pot that had plenty of calcium scales. After use, I noticed the scales were gone. I don't know why but that observation stuck with me. I thought then maybe it's why drinking tea with meals is a common practice in China. I would wonder if what happened to the pot could be happening to our blood vessels, and that oxalates would keep our blood vessels free from calcification. Here, I refer to extracellular calcification and not intracellular calcification often mentioned by Ray Peat.

Anyway, I think it's important that our acid-base balance is kept in optimal range and if it's out of range, it causes precipitation of salts and this would lead to joint issues as well as stones. An acidic pH would easily lead to uric acid stones whereas an alkaline pH would cause calcium oxalate stones.

Here's some info on it by Sally Norton who is a big expert in the field:

Joint pain? Inflammation? Slow to heal? Fatigue? Sleep issues? - Sally K. Norton

Stiff? Inflamed? Got joint or nerve pain? Got sleep issues? Slow to heal? Hiccups? Oxalate poisoning is next to impossible diagnose. Here's why.

sallyknorton.com

I didn't realize I had a problem with oxalates until I developed repeat UTIs and lots of bladder problems and gyno pain which is torture. Also a give away for me is cloudy urine.

 

[LauriePartridge]

Since I've read about oxalates for the first time on this forum, I thought a few people might find this interesting.

A few weeks ago I read about oxalates and the low oxalate diet. I ate some foods high in oxalates (a lot of dark chocolate, occasionally sweet potatoes, certain dried fruits,...) and had some symptoms of oxalate toxicity. So I thought I might give it a try. Basically every site that talks about low oxalate diets (including the people on this forum) talked about how it is important to reduce oxalates slowly and gradually from your diet, as it could otherwise lead to a process called oxalate dumping with some weird side effects.

I ignored these warnings and reduced oxalates almost completely from one day to another. I ate a lot of dark chocolate before and stopped eating it all at once and basically only ate foods with no or a pretty low oxalate content. Some days later I had some constipation and skin rashes, both of which are described as common in oxalate dumping. But it wasn't that wild and I didn't see it as a warning.

Today I had a pretty horrible day. The constipation was so bad, I thought I was almost dying. It felt like I had a big rock in my stomach, but when I went to the toilet nothing came out. I took more than 1000mg magnesium, but that didn't help either. Fortunately I'm visiting my parents over the weekend and my mother had some sort of laxative in the house (something similar to an enema). That gave me some relief, but it is still not "all out".

I've never had constipation before in my life and the oxalates were the only thing I've changed in my diet. So I think it's safe to say that this is due to oxalate dumping (and because many people warned about that exact same thing).

So if you want to cut out oxalates from your diet, follow the instructions and do it slowly and gradually. Don't think you're smarter than people who really studied those topics. It's no fun, it's horrible.

Thanks for the info! I experienced painful oxalate dumping too when I quit but it went away after about a week.

 

[PeskyPeater]

Strange post...What do oxalates have to with constipation ?
Obviously you went too low fiber , probably lots of white rice without bulking foods like milk or resistant starches

yeah, was skeptical too. Changes in diet comes with more unforeseen substances than just oxalate.

Usually insoluble or bound oxalate are expelled via feces. oxalate in soluble form are a problem with unprocessed and uncooked raw food like leafy vegetable used for base in juice etc. cooking reduces the oxalate content by leaching losses into the cooking water.

In this case Luke ate dried fruit, with their water being evaporated, having potentially higher soluble oxalate content. Also rich in fiber, thus its plausible that this change causing constipation and uptake of oxalate .

I wasn;'t aware of oxalate dumping, thank you for posting Luke. cheers

Still I like to see some more research about chocolate and oxalate...

 

[yerrag]

I think mine was mainly from being floxed tbh. I’ve read that some people are endogenous producers though.

Floxing often causes potassium to go high and results in tachycardia. It is very acidic and that's why potassium has to take the place of hydrogen ions in blood, in order to lower the blood's acidity (increasing the pH). I don't know if this can have a long-term effect, but if it does, it can lead to the unavailability of hydrogen ions needed to make ammonium to effect the excretion of acid. So potassium, magnesium, and sodium, can end up being excreted instead. And since phosphate would be needed to pair with them for excretion, calcium will be released by the bones together with phosphate. The free calcium may bind readily with oxalates. Since the urine will not be acidic enough (because acid can't be excreted for lack of hydrogen ions in the blood), the calcium oxalate can easily precipitate and form stones in the kidneys. It's not likely to precipitate in the ecf, as the ecf will still be acidic.

You can test your urine to see if it is able to be acidic. Urine being acidic is not a problem as it indicates the ability to excrete acid. I used to be concerned when the urine gets acidic, but not anymore. But urine being acidic still means there is something going on that requires acid to be excreted. It could be poor sugar metabolism, producing lactate or keto acids, or intake of medication that is acidic, or immune activities such as phagocytosis which uses acid to kill bacteria.

 

[yerrag]

Here's some info on it by Sally Norton who is a big expert in the field:

Joint pain? Inflammation? Slow to heal? Fatigue? Sleep issues? - Sally K. Norton

Stiff? Inflamed? Got joint or nerve pain? Got sleep issues? Slow to heal? Hiccups? Oxalate poisoning is next to impossible diagnose. Here's why.

sallyknorton.com

I didn't realize I had a problem with oxalates until I developed repeat UTIs and lots of bladder problems and gyno pain which is torture. Also a give away for me is cloudy urine.

Thank you.

I read it and it's an easy read, however she doesn't offer solid answers. There are many conditions she describes which could be easily misattributed to oxalates. I could see myself going back to her for a year without finding anything definite. The only way is an oxalate elimination diet, and if confirmed, still doesn't offer much by way of identifying the cause of it.

What likely ends up happening is patients start a lifetime of eating low oxalate foods not realizing this would lead to calcification of blood vessels, as oxalates are needed to remove calcium from the endothelial linings. They may help increase their coronary arterial calcium (CAC) scores.

I'm not sure, but I would monitor my urine and saliva pH, and my breath rate as a proxy for blood pH, and based on these, I may be able to identify some relationships.

 

[L_C]

Here is a recipe on how to dissolve kidney stones. My Mom sent it to me. Supposedly it works. Tested on a few people who had a success with it.

 

[LauriePartridge]

Thank you.

I read it and it's an easy read, however she doesn't offer solid answers. There are many conditions she describes which could be easily misattributed to oxalates. I could see myself going back to her for a year without finding anything definite. The only way is an oxalate elimination diet, and if confirmed, still doesn't offer much by way of identifying the cause of it.

What likely ends up happening is patients start a lifetime of eating low oxalate foods not realizing this would lead to calcification of blood vessels, as oxalates are needed to remove calcium from the endothelial linings. They may help increase their coronary arterial calcium (CAC) scores.

I'm not sure, but I would monitor my urine and saliva pH, and my breath rate as a proxy for blood pH, and based on these, I may be able to identify some relationships.

Yeah you're right I think about the article which is pretty elementary. Here's another more scientific explanation:

The Down Side to High Oxalates - Problems with Sulfate, B6, Gut, and Methylation - Beyond MTHFR

Before we get into down side of elevated oxalates it is important to repeat something I said my previous post titled Oxalates and MTHFR: Understanding the Gut-Kidney Axis – that oxalates in mild amounts are not a problem for the body. As long as the body can safely detoxify each molecule of...

www.beyondmthfr.com

 

[Blossom]

Floxing often causes potassium to go high and results in tachycardia. It is very acidic and that's why potassium has to take the place of hydrogen ions in blood, in order to lower the blood's acidity (increasing the pH). I don't know if this can have a long-term effect, but if it does, it can lead to the unavailability of hydrogen ions needed to make ammonium to effect the excretion of acid. So potassium, magnesium, and sodium, can end up being excreted instead. And since phosphate would be needed to pair with them for excretion, calcium will be released by the bones together with phosphate. The free calcium may bind readily with oxalates. Since the urine will not be acidic enough (because acid can't be excreted for lack of hydrogen ions in the blood), the calcium oxalate can easily precipitate and form stones in the kidneys. It's not likely to precipitate in the ecf, as the ecf will still be acidic.

You can test your urine to see if it is able to be acidic. Urine being acidic is not a problem as it indicates the ability to excrete acid. I used to be concerned when the urine gets acidic, but not anymore. But urine being acidic still means there is something going on that requires acid to be excreted. It could be poor sugar metabolism, producing lactate or keto acids, or intake of medication that is acidic, or immune activities such as phagocytosis which uses acid to kill bacteria.

I’m not disagreeing with you and appreciate the information! It was my understanding that levaquin killed off my oxalobacter formigenes and thus my body doesn’t break them down normally. Eating low oxalate has truly improved my life tremendously.

​

 

[LauriePartridge]

Here is some research on oxalates and thyroid function:

14937819_Oxalate_in_the_Human_Thyroid_Gland

Calcium Oxalate Crystals in the Thyroid: Their Identification, Prevalence, Origin, and Possible Significance (abstract)

Localization and characterization of thyroid microcalcifications: A histopathological study

Thyroid calcification is frequent in thyroid nodules. The aim of our study was to evaluate the prevalence of calcifications in thyroid tissue samples of patients with various thyroid diseases, and to identify their composition according to their localization. Among 50 thyroid samples included...

journals.plos.org

 

[AncestralJoy]

Thank you.

I read it and it's an easy read, however she doesn't offer solid answers. There are many conditions she describes which could be easily misattributed to oxalates. I could see myself going back to her for a year without finding anything definite. The only way is an oxalate elimination diet, and if confirmed, still doesn't offer much by way of identifying the cause of it.

What likely ends up happening is patients start a lifetime of eating low oxalate foods not realizing this would lead to calcification of blood vessels, as oxalates are needed to remove calcium from the endothelial linings. They may help increase their coronary arterial calcium (CAC) scores.

I'm not sure, but I would monitor my urine and saliva pH, and my breath rate as a proxy for blood pH, and based on these, I may be able to identify some relationships.

you seem fairly certain that oxalates remove calcium from endothelial lining?
Sally norton shares many studies showing oxalates are actually found inside plaque deposits which would indicate they hadn't removed the plaque.. or died trying?

are you basing your idea of ox removing calcification solely on your experience with the pot or do you have some more convincing evidence that that might be occurring?

 

[yerrag]

I’m not disagreeing with you and appreciate the information! It was my understanding that levaquin killed off my oxalobacter formigenes and thus my body doesn’t break them down normally. Eating low oxalate has truly improved my life tremendously.

​

That could be the cause.

I'm not sure about the long term consequences of being low on oxalates, but I hope that whatever oxalates you still get would be enough for homeostasis in the body. I'm glad going low oxalate improved your life a lot. I am always of the mindset that life is about trade-offs.

 

[yerrag]

Here is a recipe on how to dissolve kidney stones. My Mom sent it to me. Supposedly it works. Tested on a few people who had a success with it.

Interesting.

I suppose the pineapple juice has to be fresh, as canned pineapple juice would be pasteurized and the enzyme destroyed.

 

[yerrag]

Yeah you're right I think about the article which is pretty elementary. Here's another more scientific explanation:

The Down Side to High Oxalates - Problems with Sulfate, B6, Gut, and Methylation - Beyond MTHFR

Before we get into down side of elevated oxalates it is important to repeat something I said my previous post titled Oxalates and MTHFR: Understanding the Gut-Kidney Axis – that oxalates in mild amounts are not a problem for the body. As long as the body can safely detoxify each molecule of...

www.beyondmthfr.com

Wow! Thanks. I'm reading it now.

This is a nit, but I wonder if this passage makes sense:

A big reason that oxalates are so toxic is that each oxalate molecule that gets into our body will cause us to lose a molecule of sulfate. The reason we lose sulfate is that oxalate and sulfate use the same transporter to get into our bodies. On the surface of our gut, liver and kidney exists a cellular transporter called the Sat1 transport protein.18 The job of this little cellular micro-machine is to exchange, or swap, one molecule of oxalate for one molecule of sulfate. It is just like a revolving door that constantly pushes sulfate out in exchange for an oxalate molecule coming in. This Sat1 transporter is the reason why we lose sulfate into the gut and into the urine when our oxalate levels rise.19

Can sulfate that doesn't get past the gut still end up in urine? Shouldn't it end up in the stool?