Am I Right To Assume That A 1000mg Fish Oil = 1 Gram Of PUFA?

[DevilHands]

Ok guys, I just went to a holistic doctor to have my hernia treated. He believes that the body can self heal given the right conditions and it can be done by nourishing the body with a bunch of high quality supplements.

This is a guy that have successfully treated cancer patients before and rich businessman have actually visited him for consultation, so I think he is onto something.

Just like Ray Peat, he believes that saturated fats are the best fats for cooking and PUFA can oxidize quickly. There are also differences like he believes that high dosing vitamin C is better than calcium. He doesn't believe that people can get all the nutrients through just foods.

I was given a whole bunch of supplements like 24 or something to be taken per day. One of the things I found out that it has EPA/DHA in it which I assume is fish oil. He does know his stuff however and told me that he has also given me vitamin E to counteract in ingesting too much fish oil and adds that fish oil is essential.

If it wasn't for the vitamin E, I would have kind of freak out but I just calmly accept and decide to give it a shot if the pain I am experiencing can actually be alleviated as he said.

Now my question is... does a 1000mg fish oil means it has a gram of PUFA? If so, I guess it isn't too bad since a Ray Peat diet can have at least <5g. Correct?

 

[johnwester130]

this will explain it

The Great Fish Oil Experiment

Ray Peat

Unsaturated fatty acids: Nutritionally essential, or toxic?

Unsaturated Vegetable Oils: Toxic

Coconut Oil

 

[meatbag]

1000mg of fish oil if its unrefined would be less than 1g of PUFA since any fish fats are going to contain some saturated,o-6,0-9 etc fatty acids. I think most of the refined fish oils specifically list the DHA/EPA content, even eggs and the milk at costco list this now (sadly). But yeah It's probably just all PUFA (edit: yeah its all pufa nvm)

Since you asked him, what did he say the fish oil would do exactly that made it so essential, especially in regards to a hernia? I assume he said "it's anti-inflammatory" ? Do you mind if I ask what else he prescribed?

I think if I personally had this issue the first thing I would try would be topical progesterone/dhea or pregnenolone/dhea and making sure thyroid is good to help the muscle contraction relax. I haven't looked too much into this though but do you have any of those things at hand?

Maybe you could give some of the posts here a viewing;
dha | Ray Peat Forum
epa | Ray Peat Forum
omega-3 | Ray Peat Forum

----
I'd also recommend this article, in fact you could even send them to the practitioner to see what he thinks

The Great Fish Oil Experiment
The Great Fish Oil Experiment

Reading medical journals and following the mass media, it's easy to get the idea that fish oil is something any sensible person should use. It's rare to see anything suggesting that it could be dangerous.

During the recent years in which the U.S. government has gone from warning against the consumption of too much of these omega-3 oils ("to assure that the combined daily intake of two fatty acids that are components" "(i.e., eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA)) would not exceed 3 grams per person per day (g/p/d)") to sponsoring biased industry claims, there has been considerable accumulation of information about the dangers of fish oils and omega-3 fatty acids. But there has been an even greater increase in the industry's promotional activities.

The US government and the mass media selectively promote research that is favorable to the fish oil industry. The editorial boards of oil research journals often include industry representatives, and their editorial decisions favor research conclusions that promote the industry, in the way that editorial decisions in previous decades favored articles that denied the dangers of radiation and reported that estrogen cures almost everything. Marcia Angell, former editor of the NEJM, has observed that the "significant results" reported in published studies can be properly interpreted only by knowing how many studies reporting opposite results were rejected by the editors.

One way to evaluate published studies is to see whether they tell you everything you would need to know to replicate the experiment, and whether the information they provide is adequate for drawing the conclusions they draw, for example whether they compared the experimental subjects to proper control subjects. With just a few minimal critical principles of this sort, most "scientific" publications on nutrition, endocrinology, cancer and other degenerative diseases are seen to be unscientific. In nutritional experiments with fish oil, controls must receive similar amounts of vitamins A, D, E, and K, and should include fat free or "EFA" deficient diets for comparison.

In declaring EPA and DHA to be safe, the FDA neglected to evaluate their antithyroid, immunosuppressive, lipid peroxidative (Song et al., 2000), light sensitizing, and antimitochondrial effects, their depression of glucose oxidation (Delarue et al., 2003), and their contribution to metastatic cancer (Klieveri, et al., 2000), lipofuscinosis and liver damage, among other problems.

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"Houston-based Omega Protein Inc.'s bottom line may get a little fatter.

The publicly traded company, which produces an Omega-3 fatty acid product called OmegaPure, has signed an agreement to provide its fish oil in school lunches in 38 school districts in South Texas beginning this month.

The 500-person company, which has ties to former President George Bush's Zapata Corp., will distribute the product through an agreement with Mercedes-based H&H Foods.

Although the dollar amount of the contract between Omega Protein and H&H Foods hinges on future sales, the company is poised to cash in as school administrators and parents refocus their attention on the nutritional content of student diets.

Omega Protein President and CEO Joseph von Rosenberg says the company's recent investment of $16.5 million for a fish oil refinery in Reedville, Va., scheduled for completion in May, and an increased awareness of the benefits of Omega-3 in human food, positions Omega to capitalize on predicted demand."

Jenna Colley
Houston Business Journal

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Andrew Weil was on the radio recently recommending DHA (usually found in fish oil*) to treat depression, and I think that means that a lot of people are buying it and eating it. A few years ago the government declared that it was "generally regarded as safe" and approved its use in baby formula, and a few months ago Texas school districts contracted with Omega Protein (which grew out of the Bush family's Zapata Corporation) to provide menhaden fish oil for school lunches. Between the 1950s and the 1970s, people were assured that eating polyunsaturated seed oils would protect them against heart disease. There's no evidence that the bad outcome of that campaign decreased the gullibility of the public. They are happily joining in the latest public health experiment.


*Weil recommends eating "oily fish"--"wild Alaskan salmon, mackerel, sardines, or herring"--. "If you do take supplements, fish oil is a better source of DHA than algae"

When a group of people in government and industry decide on a policy, they can use carrots (good jobs, grants, and prestige) and sticks (loss of jobs and grants, organized slander, and worse) to make their guidelines clear, and most people will choose to follow those cues, even if they know that the policy is wrong. Historically, policy makers have told the public that "radiation is good for you," "estrogen will make you fertile (or safely infertile) and feminine and strong and intelligent," "starchy foods will prevent diabetes and obesity," "using diuretics and avoiding salt will make pregnancy safer," and that the polyunsaturated fatty acids are "nutritionally essential, and will prevent heart disease."

The original "essential fatty acids" were linoleic, linolenic, and arachidonic acids. Now that the toxic effects of those are coming to be recognized, new "essential fatty acids," the omega-3 fatty acids, including those with long chains, found in fish oils, are said to make babies more intelligent, to be necessary for good vision, and to prevent cancer, heart disease, obesity, arthritis, depression, epilepsy, psychosis, dementia, ulcers, eczema and dry skin.
With just a normal amount of vitamin E in the diet, cod liver oil is certain to be highly oxidized in the tissues of a mammal that eats a lot of it, and an experiment with dogs showed that it could increase their cancer mortality from the normal 5% to 100%. Although fish oils rapidly destroy vitamin E in the body, some of them, especially the liver oils, can provide useful vitamins, A and D. In studies comparing fish oil diets with standard diets, these nutrients, as well as any toxins besides fatty acids (Huang, et al., 1997; Miyazaki, et al., 1998) in either type of oil, should be taken into account, but they seldom are.


Despite the nutritional value of those vitamins, fish oils are generally much more immunosuppressive than the seed oils, and the early effects of fish oil on the "immune system" include the suppression of prostaglandin synthesis, because the more highly unsaturated long chain fats interfere with the conversion of linoleic acid into arachidonic acid and prostaglandins. The prostaglandins are so problematic that their suppression is helpful, whether the inhibition is caused by aspirin or vitamin E, or by fish oil.


Some of the important antiinflammatory effects of fish oil result from the oxidized oils, rather than the unchanged oils (Sethi, 2002; Chaudhary, et al., 2004). These oils are so unstable that they begin to spontaneously oxidize even before they reach the bloodstream.


In experiments that last just a few weeks or months, there may not be time for cancers to develop, and on that time scale, the immunosuppressive and antiinflammatory effects of oxidized fish oil might seem beneficial. For a few decades, x-ray treatments were used to relieve inflammatory conditions, and most of the doctors who promoted the treatment were able to retire before their patients began suffering the fatal effects of atrophy, fibrosis, and cancer. (But a few people are still advocating x-ray therapy for inflammatory diseases, e.g., Hildebrandt, et al., 2003.) The fish oil fad is now just as old as the x-ray fad was at its peak of popularity, and if its antiinflammatory actions involve the same mechanisms as the antiinflammatory immunosuppressive x-ray treatments, then we can expect to see another epidemic of fibrotic conditions and cancer in about 15 to 20 years.
Around 1970 researchers reported that animals given fish oil in their food lived longer than animals on the standard diet. Alex Comfort, who was familiar with the research showing that simple reduction of food intake increased longevity, observed that the animals were very reluctant to eat the food containing smelly fish oil, and were eating so little food that their longevity could be accounted for by their reduced caloric intake. Even when "fresh" deodorized fish oil is added to the diet, its spontaneous oxidation before it reaches the animal's tissues reduces its caloric value. Without antioxidants, fish oil is massively degraded within 48 hours, and even with a huge amount of antioxidant there is still considerable degradation (Gonzalez, 1988; Klein, et al., 1990).
Fish oil has been used for hundreds of years as varnish or for fuel in lamps, and the fatty fish have been used as fertilizer and animal feed, and later the hydrogenated solid form of the oil, which is more stable, has been used in Europe as a food substitute for people. When whale hunting was reduced around 1950, fish oil was substituted for whale oil in margarine production. Like the seed oils, such as linseed oil, the fish oils were mostly replaced by petroleum derivatives in the paint industry after the 1960s.


Although by 1980 many animal diseases were known to be caused by eating oily fish, and the unsaturated oils were known to accelerate the formation of the "age pigment," lipofuscin, many "beneficial effects" of dietary fish oil started appearing in research journals around that time, and the mass media, responding to the industry's public relations campaign, began ignoring studies that showed harmful effects from eating fish oil.


When reviewers in professional journals begin to ignore valid research whose conclusions are harmful to the fish oil industry, we can see that the policy guidelines set by the industry and its agents in government have become clear. Around the end of the century, we begin to see a strange literary device appearing, in which research reports on the toxic effects of omega-3 oils are prefaced by remarks to the effect that "we all know how great these oils are for good health." I think I detect groveling and shuffling of the feet by authors who want to get their work published. If you are willing to say that your work probably doesn't mean what it seems to mean, maybe they will publish it.


For more than 50 years, the great majority of the medical publications on estrogen were part of the drug industry's campaign to fraudulently gain billions of dollars, and anyone who cared to analyze them could see that the authors and editors were part of a cult, rather than seekers of useful knowledge. Likewise, the doctrine of the harmlessness of x-rays and radioactive fallout was kept alive for several decades by demonizing all who challenged it. It now looks as though we are in danger of entering another period of medical-industrial-governmental cultism, this time to promote the universal use of polyunsaturated fats as both drugs and foods.
In 2004, a study of 29,133 men reported that the use of omega-3 oil or consumption of fish didn't decrease depression or suicide, and in 2001, a study of 42,612 men and women reported that after more than 9 years the use of cod liver oil showed no protective effect against coronary heart disease (Hakkarainen, et al., 2004; Egeland, et al., 2001).


The most popular way of arguing that fish oil will prevent heart disease is to show that it lowers blood lipids, continuing the old approach of the American Heart Association's "heart protective diet." Unfortunately for that argument, it's now known that the triglycerides in the blood are decreased because of the fish oil's toxic effects on the liver (Hagve and Christophersen, 1988; Ritskes-Hoitinga, et al., 1998). In experiments with rats, EPA and DHA lowered blood lipids only when given to rats that had been fed, in which case the fats were incorporated into tissues, and suppressed mitochondrial respiration (Osmundsen, et al., 1998).


The belief that eating cholesterol causes heart disease was based mainly on old experiments with rabbits, and subsequent experiments have made it clear that it is oxidized cholesterol that damages the arteries (Stapran, et al., 1997). Since both fish oil and oxidized cholesterol damage rabbits' arteries, and since the lipid peroxides associated with fish oil attack a great variety of biological materials, including the LDL lipoproteins carrying cholesterol, the implications of the rabbit experiments now seem very different.


Another way of arguing for the use of fish oil or other omega-3 fats is to show a correlation between disease and a decreased amount of EPA, DHA, or arachidonic acid in the tissues, and to say "these oils are deficient, the disease is caused by a deficiency of essential fatty acids." Those oils are extremely susceptible to oxidation, so they tend to spontaneously disappear in response to tissue injury, cellular excitation, the increased energy demands of stress, exposure to toxins or ionizing radiation, or even exposure to light. That spontaneous oxidation is what made them useful as varnish or paint medium. But it is what makes them sensitize the tissues to injury. Their "deficiency" in the tissues frequently corresponds to the intensity of oxidative stress and lipid peroxidation; it is usually their presence, rather than their deficiency, that created the disposition for the disease.


One of the earliest harmful effects of polyunsaturated fatty acids, PUFA, to be observed was their acceleration of the formation of lipofuscin or ceroid, the "age pigment," during oxidative stress or vitamin E deficiency. Associated with the formation of lipofuscin, the PUFA were discovered to cause degeneration of the gonads and brain, and the fact that vitamin E could prevent some of their toxic effects led to the idea that vitamin E was essentially an antioxidant. Unfortunately, the protective effect of vitamin E against the PUFA is only partial (Allard, et al., 1997).


The degenerative diseases are all associated with disturbances involving fat metabolism and lipid peroxidation. Alzheimer's disease, alcoholic and nonalcoholic liver disease, retinal degeneration, epilepsy, AIDS, diabetes, and a variety of circulatory problems involve breakdown products of the PUFA. The products of PUFA decomposition include acrolein, malondialdehyde, hydroxynonenal, crotonaldehyde, ethane, pentane, and the neuroprostanes, which are prostaglandin-like molecules formed from DHA by free radical lipid peroxidation products, especially in the brain and at a higher level in Alzheimer's disease.


The reactions of three types of cell--vascular endothelium, nerve cells, and thymus cells--to the PUFA will illustrate some of the important processes involved in their toxicity.


When the body doesn't have enough glucose, free fatty acids are released from the tissues, and their oxidation blocks the oxidation of glucose even when it becomes available from the breakdown of protein caused by cortisol, which is released during glucose deprivation. Cells of the thymus are sensitive to glucose deprivation, and even in the presence of glucose, cortisol prevents them from using glucose, causing them to take up fatty acids. The thymic cells die easily when exposed either to excess cortisol, or deficient glucose. The polyunsaturated fatty acids linoleate, arachidonate, and eicosapentaenoic, are especially toxic to thymic cells by preventing their inactivation of cortisol, increasing its action. (Klein, et al., 1987, 1989, 1990). Lymphocytes from people with AIDS and leukemia are less able to metabolize cortisol. An extract of serum from AIDS patients caused lymphocytes exposed to cortisol to die 7 times faster than cells from healthy people. AIDS patients have high levels of both cortisol and free polyunsaturated fatty acids (Christeff, et al., 1988).
The cytotoxicity caused by EPA and its metabolites (15 mg. of EPA per liter killed over 90% of a certain type of macrophage) isn't inhibited by vitamin E (Fyfe and Abbey, 2000). Immunological activation tends to kill T cells that contain PUFA (Switzer, et al., 2003).


When animals are fed fish oil and then exposed to bacteria, their immunosuppressed thymic (T) cells cause them to succumb to the infection more easily than animals fed coconut oil or a fat free diet. Natural killer cells, which eliminate cancer cells and virus infected cells, are decreased after eating fish oil, and T suppressor cells are often increased. More subtle interference with immunity is produced by the actions of PUFA on the "immune synapse," a contact between cells that permits the transmission of immunological information. The immunosuppressive effect of fish oil is recognized as a useful aid in preventing the rejection of transplanted organs, but some studies are showing that survival a year after transplantation isn't improved.


Polyunsaturated fatty acids, especially those that can be turned into prostaglandins, are widely involved in causing inflammation and vascular leakiness. EPA and DHA don't form ordinary prostaglandins, though the isoprostanes and neuroprostanes they produce during lipid peroxidation behave in many ways like the more common prostaglandins, and their enzymically formed eicosanoids have some functions similar to those of the common prostaglandins. The brain contains a very high concentration of these unstable fatty acids, and they are released in synapses by ordinary excitatory process.


Chan, et al., 1983, found that polyunsaturated fats caused brain swelling and increased blood vessel permeability. In 1988, Chan's group found that DHA and other polyunsaturated fatty acids added to cultured cells from the cerebral cortex produced free radicals and stimulated production of malondialdehyde and lactate, and inhibited the uptake of glutamic acid, which suggests that they would contribute to prolonged excitation of the nerves (Yu, et al., 1986). In brain slices, the polyunsaturated fatty acids caused the production of free radicals and swelling of the tissue, and the saturated fatty acids didn't (Chan and Fishman, 1980). The PUFA inhibited the respiration of mitochondria in brain cells (Hillered and Chan, 1988), and at a higher concentration, caused them to swell (Hillered and Chan, 1989), but saturated fatty acids didn't produce edema. Free radical activity was shown to cause the liberation of free fatty acids from the cellular structure (Chan, et al., 1982, 1984). The activation of lipases by free radicals and lipid peroxides, with the loss of potassium from the cells, suggests that excitation can become a self-stimulating process, leading to cellular destruction.


DHA itself, rather than its decomposition products, facilitates excitatory (glutamate) nerve transmission (Nishikawa, et al., 1994), and that excitatory action causes the release of arachidonic acid (Pellerin and Wolfe, 1991).


Considering just one of the products of fish oil peroxidation, acrolein, and a few of its effects in cells, we can get an idea of the types of damage that could result from increasing the amount of omega-3 fats in our tissues.
The "barrier" between the brain and blood stream is one of the most effective vascular barriers in the body, but it is very permeable to oils, and lipid peroxidation disrupts it, damaging the ATPase that regulates sodium and potassium (Stanimirovic, et al., 1995). Apparently, anything that depletes the cell's energy, lowering ATP, allows an excess of calcium to enter cells, contributing to their death (Ray, et al., 1994). Increasing intracellular calcium activates phospholipases, releasing more polyunsaturated fats (Sweetman, et al., 1995) The acrolein which is released during lipid peroxidation inhibits mitochondrial function by poisoning the crucial respiratory enzyme, cytochrome oxidase, resulting in a decreased ability to produce energy (Picklo and Montine, 2001). (In the retina, the PUFA contribute to light-induced damage of the energy producing ability of the cells [King, 2004], by damaging the same crucial enzyme.) Besides inhibiting the ability of nerve cells to produce energy from the oxidation of glucose, acrolein inhibits the ability of cells to regulate the excitatory amino acid glutamate (Lovell, et al., 2000), contributing to the excitatory process. High levels of acrolein (and other products of PUFA degradation) are found in the brain in Alzheimer's disease (Lovell, et al., 2001).


The "prion" diseases, CJD and TSE/BSE (mad cow disease) have many features in common with Alzheimer's disease, and several studies have shown that the "prion" protein produces its damage by activating the lipases that release polyunsaturated fatty acids and produce lipid peroxides (Bate, et al., 2004, Stewart, et al., 2001).
Acrolein reacts with DNA, causing "genetic" damage, and also reacts with the lysine in proteins, for example contributing to the toxicity of oxidized low density lipoproteins (LDL), the proteins that carry cholesterol and that became famous because of their involvement in the development of atherosclerosis that was supposedly caused by eating saturated fats.


My newsletter on mad cow disease discussed the evidence incriminating the use of fish meal in animal feed, as a cause of the degenerative brain diseases, and earlier newsletters (glycemia, and glycation) discussed the reasons for thinking that inappropriate glycation of lysine groups in proteins, as a result of a lack of protective carbon dioxide/carbamino groups, produces the amyloid (or "prion") proteins that characterize the dementias. Acrolein, produced from the decomposing "fish oils" in the brain, is probably the most reactive product of lipid peroxidation in the brain, and so would be likely to cause the glycation of lysine in the plaque-forming proteins.
These toxic effects of acrolein in the brain are analogous to the multitude of toxic effects of the omega-3 fatty acids and their breakdown products in all of the other organs and tissues of the body. Cancer cells are unusual in their degree of resistance to the lethal actions of the lipid peroxides, but the inflammatory effects of the highly unsaturated fatty acids are now widely recognized to be essentially involved in the process of cancerization (my newsletters on cancer and leakiness discuss some of the ways the fats are involved in tumor development).
The fats that we synthesize from sugar, or coconut oil, or oleic acid, the omega-9 series, are protective against the inflammatory PUFA, in some cases more effective even than vitamin E.


In Woody Allen's 1973 movie, Sleeper, the protagonist woke up after being frozen for 200 years, to find that saturated fats were health foods. At the time the movie was made, that had already been established (e.g., Hartroft and Porta, 1968 edition of Present Knowledge in Nutrition, who showed that adequate saturated fat in the diet helped to protect against the formation of lipofuscin).

PS:
Royal Society for the Protection of Birds says 2004 has been the most catastrophic breeding season on record for seabirds along UK coasts. It says industrial fishing to supply fish meal and oil is barely sustainable and imperils the whole marine food web.
"The UK has suffered serious seabird disasters this year already. In Shetland and Orkney, entire colonies of birds failed to produce any young because of severe food shortages. "On top of that, hundreds of seabirds have been washing ashore having perished at sea. Again, lack of food is thought to be one of the reasons." The report, Assessment Of The Sustainability Of Industrial Fisheries Producing Fish Meal And Fish Oil, was compiled for the RSPB by Poseidon Aquatic Resource Management Ltd and the University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

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Food Chem Toxicol. 1998 Aug;36(8):663-72. The association of increasing dietary concentrations of fish oil with hepatotoxic effects and a higher degree of aorta atherosclerosis in the ad lib.-fed rabbit. Ritskes-Hoitinga J, Verschuren PM, Meijer GW, Wiersma A, van de Kooij AJ, Timmer WG, Blonk CG, Weststrate JA.
Atherosclerosis. 2001 Mar;155(1):9-18. Enhanced level of n-3 fatty acid in membrane phospholipids induces lipid peroxidation in rats fed dietary docosahexaenoic acid oil. Song JH, Miyazawa T.
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J Nutr. 2000 Dec;130(12):3028-33. Polyunsaturated (n-3) fatty acids susceptible to peroxidation are increased in plasma and tissue lipids of rats fed docosahexaenoic acid-containing oils. Song JH, Fujimoto K, Miyazawa T.
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[meatbag]

Ok guys, I just went to a holistic doctor to have my hernia treated. He believes that the body can self heal given the right conditions and it can be done by nourishing the body with a bunch of high quality supplements.

This is a guy that have successfully treated cancer patients before and rich businessman have actually visited him for consultation, so I think he is onto something.

Just like Ray Peat, he believes that saturated fats are the best fats for cooking and PUFA can oxidize quickly. There are also differences like he believes that high dosing vitamin C is better than calcium. He doesn't believe that people can get all the nutrients through just foods.

I was given a whole bunch of supplements like 24 or something to be taken per day. One of the things I found out that it has EPA/DHA in it which I assume is fish oil. He does know his stuff however and told me that he has also given me vitamin E to counteract in ingesting too much fish oil and adds that fish oil is essential.

If it wasn't for the vitamin E, I would have kind of freak out but I just calmly accept and decide to give it a shot if the pain I am experiencing can actually be alleviated as he said.

Now my question is... does a 1000mg fish oil means it has a gram of PUFA? If so, I guess it isn't too bad since a Ray Peat diet can have at least <5g. Correct?

Also I know this is a different sort of hernia (although seem to be caused by similar reasons) but here's what Ray said to someone with Hiatal hernia
What Can One Do About A Hiatal Hernia?
"Peat's responded to me months ago in two emails, which I'm providing as a resource for others:

Me:
"Hi Dr. Peat,

I have a hiatal hernia that causes chest pains, chest and throat tightness, shallow breathing, occasional palpitations, constant heartburn, bloating, asthma-like symptoms, and other things. I went to the ER for the chest pains and it was judged as "non-cardiac" in origin. When hiatal hernia is suspected, general medicine doesn't offer an approach to recovery beyond symptom management or surgery.

Is there anything to do for a hiatal hernia? For example, some chiropractors claim to be able to treat it. It seems this is a prevalent and dangerous illness and people have no idea how to approach it."
Peat:
"Have you had blood tests for hormones? The whole complex of symptoms including hiatal hernia is usually caused by a general weakness of digestive and hormonal processes, and it’s especaily imortant to check thyroid function carefully, with a blood test and recording waking and midday temperature and pulse rate, and average caloric requirement."
Me:
"Hi again Dr. Peat,

I had blood tests for hormones a couple of times about a year ago. I first started struggling with my health after taking the drug finasteride for two months. When I stopped the drug, almost overnight I developed low libido, brain fog, and fatigue. A year and a half since, I've started feeling slightly better but recently developed this HH. I find it difficult to eat to caloric needs due to the HH."
Peat:
"It is most likely to develop as a result of reduced thyroid hormone and increased stress hormones (especially cortisol, in relation to testosterone and DHEA), weakening connective tissues. Some foods that cause intestinal irritation can make it worse; a simplified diet makes it possible to identify any specific foods that make the problem worse. Keeping a record of temperature and pulse rate can help to recognize any hormonal problems."

 

[DevilHands]

Hi! Well, he didn't quite elaborate why fish oils are essentials. He does know however about its toxic effects and shows me an article about it which I skimmed through although I've heard about it before on the net.

The reason why he gave me the article but continues to prescribe me fish oil anyway is to show that if one supplements blindlessly then it can be detrimental to health. He continues to say that with fish oil, vitamin E is needed. To which I suddenly thought... hey this is Ray Peat's view in which Vit E can help with PUFA ingestion.

He also stressed the importance of the brand since not all fish oils are the same. I think the fish oil capsules are from Pure Encapsulation.

I can't quite tell all of the capsules since its prepared specifically for me and its supposedly not targeted just for my hernia but my overall well being. The capsules name under the purchase receipt are abbreviated and some of which I understand.


basic preventive, bioCOQ10, C-Ester and Flavonoids, Cognimag, E-natural, EPA/DHA, bio-active b complex, liver gi-detox, microdixin, phytoshield + zinc, Puredefense NAC, biocollagen, bioresvida, carniQ10lipoic, cogni-ccm, multiprobiotic, lypricel and a bunch more pills under the name of inflamax...

 

[meatbag]

Hi! Well, he didn't quite elaborate why fish oils are essentials. He does know however about its toxic effects and shows me an article about it which I skimmed through although I've heard about it before on the net.

The reason why he gave me the article but continues to prescribe me fish oil anyway is to show that if one supplements blindlessly then it can be detrimental to health. He continues to say that with fish oil, vitamin E is needed. To which I suddenly thought... hey this is Ray Peat's view in which Vit E can help with PUFA ingestion.

He also stressed the importance of the brand since not all fish oils are the same. I think the fish oil capsules are from Pure Encapsulation.

I can't quite tell all of the capsules since its prepared specifically for me and its supposedly not targeted just for my hernia but my overall well being. The capsules name under the purchase receipt are abbreviated and some of which I understand.


basic preventive, bioCOQ10, C-Ester and Flavonoids, Cognimag, E-natural, EPA/DHA, bio-active b complex, liver gi-detox, microdixin, phytoshield + zinc, Puredefense NAC, biocollagen, bioresvida, carniQ10lipoic, cogni-ccm, multiprobiotic, lypricel and a bunch more pills under the name of inflamax...

Wow I'm surprised someone can say something is toxic and then turn around and sell it directly to that person. Vitamin E mitigates some of the effects of PUFAs but not all of them. You could eat several ounces of liver a week and pulp free orange juice and get most of the compounds listed in a more bioavailable form; cheaper and with less additives and heavy metals used in the chemical synthesis and refinement of the compounds.

Frankly it seems like he just threw as many supplements at you as he could without any idea what would help the hernia. In terms of well being have you ever checked your temperature and pulse rate when waking and before and after eating to get an idea of you thyroid function? Do you find your toes, fingers, nose, extremeties etc. very cold

If your digestion is not great you could try carrot salad and coffee can help with a lot of the side effects of poor digestion (increased Nitric Oxide). Most of the people I know with hernias don't drink coffee, it could be helpful but I'm not sure. One of the things I noticed when weightlifting is that during periods of time when I didn't drink as much coffee is that I would get a lot of muscle spasms and cramps.
-------
"The late Dr. Broda Barnes introduced the basal temperature test as an easy way to determine adequate thyroid function. It’s important to do an oral temperature test. The oral temperature is measured with an oral digital thermometer after arising. Women should do this during their menses to ensure missing the rise of temperature during ovulation. The morning oral temperature after arising should be 98.0 degrees F. It should then rise to 98.6-99 degrees F between 11 am and 2 pm and the resting daytime pulse should be around 85 beats per minute. The national average is around 72. If your pulse is less than 80, you may have an underactive thyroid (however a hypothyroid person with high adrenalin can have a pulse of as high as 150). Babies have a pulse greater than 100 until around the age of eight years when the pulse slows down to around 85. Dr. Peat says that the idea of a slow pulse being healthy is folklore. Thyroid needs increase during the cold, dark winters and decrease during the warm summer days when there is more sunlight. In addition to the seasons, any kind of stress hinders thyroid function."
~Thyroid Function, Pulse Rate, & Temperature – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
~Ray Peat, PhD on Thyroid, Temperature, Pulse, and TSH – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Assessment of the Thyroid: Achilles Tendon Reflex (Woltman’s Sign)
(its possible something similar is going on within the location of the hernia)

Ray Peat, PhD on the Benefits of Raw Carrot

 

[meatbag]

Hi! Well, he didn't quite elaborate why fish oils are essentials. He does know however about its toxic effects and shows me an article about it which I skimmed through although I've heard about it before on the net.

The reason why he gave me the article but continues to prescribe me fish oil anyway is to show that if one supplements blindlessly then it can be detrimental to health. He continues to say that with fish oil, vitamin E is needed. To which I suddenly thought... hey this is Ray Peat's view in which Vit E can help with PUFA ingestion.

He also stressed the importance of the brand since not all fish oils are the same. I think the fish oil capsules are from Pure Encapsulation.

I can't quite tell all of the capsules since its prepared specifically for me and its supposedly not targeted just for my hernia but my overall well being. The capsules name under the purchase receipt are abbreviated and some of which I understand.


basic preventive, bioCOQ10, C-Ester and Flavonoids, Cognimag, E-natural, EPA/DHA, bio-active b complex, liver gi-detox, microdixin, phytoshield + zinc, Puredefense NAC, biocollagen, bioresvida, carniQ10lipoic, cogni-ccm, multiprobiotic, lypricel and a bunch more pills under the name of inflamax...

What is your diet like and how did you get the hernia? How long have you had it?

 

[DevilHands]

Actually he told me that the hernia is a collagen/connective tissue issue.

As for fish oil, he did told me that its better to NOT take fish oil without the help of a professional. As he says that vitamins and minerals need harmony and then gave me fish oil and vitamin e as an example.

I have the hernia probably for about a month now... It was too sudden... like when I sneeze, I can feel the pain.

I've been Peating for quite a while now.... Sometime late last year? Ive decrease my PUFA intake around mid last year, but I think it was around Nov where I really increased my dairy and sugar intake which didn't quite go well as I was having diarrhea issues, mostly because of the milk I guess. Was eating carrot salad a day too... but kinda stopped just this month.

I was still Peating when I got the hernia, and I am not sure if its partly to be blamed.

My temp is what's frustrating me, whenever I wake up. I really can't get the optimal 36.7 degree. Mine would often hover around 35.5 -36.0.

 

[meatbag]

Also I know I post this like everyday but I think you'd get a lot out of it. I know a lot of people out there are trying to convince people if they just take more supplements it will make them feel better but I don't think that has much evidence and is counter to mine and others experiences as well. When I was an athlete I actually used some supplements similar to what you listed and none of it helped me do anything except waste money. I took many vitamins and minerals and still suffered from a whole host of issues

 

[meatbag]

Actually he told me that the hernia is a collagen/connective tissue issue.

As for fish oil, he did told me that its better to NOT take fish oil without the help of a professional. As he says that vitamins and minerals need harmony and then gave me fish oil and vitamin e as an example.

I have the hernia probably for about a month now... It was too sudden... like when I sneeze, I can feel the pain.

I've been Peating for quite a while now.... Sometime late last year? Ive decrease my PUFA intake around mid last year, but I think it was around Nov where I really increased my dairy and sugar intake which didn't quite go well as I was having diarrhea issues, mostly because of the milk I guess. Was eating carrot salad a day too... but kinda stopped just this month.

I was still Peating when I got the hernia, and I am not sure if its partly to be blamed.

My temp is what's frustrating me, whenever I wake up. I really can't get the optimal 36.7 degree. Mine would often hover around 35.5 -36.0.

Yeah at those body temperatures I'm not surprised that milk was somewhat problematic as production of the lactase enzyme corresponds to body temperature. I know Danny Roddy has discussed that he was drinking milk for a long time and it caused him problems even when he got his temps up and after a few days on Penicillian VK he hasn't had any problems with it at all. I think he said he could drink some whole goats milk during the problematic time without issues. Can you eat ice cream without gums or carrageenan?

Thyroid plays a big role in mineral balance, have you tried using a thyroid supplement? I'm not really sure if just taking every vitamin and mineral that exists in a capsule will really solve anything. You might get some relief from progesterone/dhea, I've tried applying this to cuts and it really increases the healing time and is relaxing. I always have pumped up calf muscles and when I apply the combo on my legs they become relaxed.

 

[meatbag]

"When a group of lactase deficient people have been given some milk every day for a few weeks, they have adapted, for example with tests showing that much less hydrogen gas was produced from lactose by intestinal bacteria after they had adapted (Pribila, et al., 2000).

Bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine can be caused by hypothyroidism (Lauritano, et al., 2007), and the substances produced by these bacteria can damage the lining of the small intestine, causing the loss of lactase enzymes (Walshe, et al., 1990).

Another hormonal condition that probably contributes to lactase deficiency is progesterone deficiency, since a synthetic progestin has been found to increase the enzyme (Nagpaul, et al., 1990). The particular progestin they used lacks many of progesterone's effects, but it does protect against some kinds of stress, including high estrogen and cortisol. This suggests that stress, with its increased ratio of estrogen and cortisol to progesterone, might commonly cause the enzyme to decrease."
~Milk In Context: Allergies, Ecology, And Some Myths

"Lactose is the type of sugar found in milk. The body requires a certain enzyme (lactase) to digest and metabolize lactose properly. People who are “lactose intolerant” are deficient in this enzyme. Many people assume that this deficiency is the function of genetics or belonging to one or another ethnic group. But bacterial over growth in the small intestine (often caused by hypothyroidism) can damage the lining of the small intestine and cause the loss of lactase enzymes. Progesterone deficiency will also cause lactase enzyme deficiency. Inflammation in general shifts cell function and causes you to lose many functional enzymes, including the lactase enzyme."
~Drink Your Milk: The Many Benefits Of Dairy

 

[DevilHands]

Yep! I understand hehe... I guess I shouldn't expect too much from these. He did however say that my symptom should be reduce within 10 days so let's see. I also have sinus issue as well ever since I was a kid and he told me its going to help as well.

Supply is good for 10 days so if I didn't feel anything. I guess I'll just stop.......

As for milk, I did try goat's milk once and it gave me diarrhea as well. The only milk that did not give me digestive issue is lactose free milk and I was starting that out last month. It just sucks that after a few weeks I got the hernia.

 

[Such_Saturation]

You could have told him that your big toe hurt and he would probably have still given you fish oil

 

[meatbag]

Yep! I understand hehe... I guess I shouldn't expect too much from these. He did however say that my symptom should be reduce within 10 days so let's see. I also have sinus issue as well ever since I was a kid and he told me its going to help as well.

Supply is good for 10 days so if I didn't feel anything. I guess I'll just stop.......

As for milk, I did try goat's milk once and it gave me diarrhea as well. The only milk that did not give me digestive issue is lactose free milk and I was starting that out last month. It just sucks that after a few weeks I got the hernia.

Have you ever gotten a blood cell and chem test from a doc lately (usually they do this at physicals where I live)? It sound like you have really low CO2 (carbon dioxide which is produced during cellular respiration)

 

[meatbag]

You could have told him that your big toe hurt and he would probably have still given you fish oil

Didn't you have a hernia awhile back and it just went away?

 

[Such_Saturation]

Didn't you have a hernia awhile back and it just went away?

Yes a stomach hernia. But I didn’t test in a while.

 

[lvysaur]

fish oil is worse than other pufa

 

[DevilHands]

meatbag - no, I havent been able to have those test. What specific test would be a good idea though? We do have a laboratory test in our place where I can go to. What's also a good way to increase carbon dioxide?

Ivysaur- don't know.... it is just a pill a day, so 1 gram of fish oil maybe wont cause too much harm. For someone who don't know about Peat and eat a standard diet full of PUFA + fish oil. It could be bad, but for someone who consciously reduce their PUFA intake + Fish oil its probably not the same. I'll just wait and see...

I mean the timeframe he said for me to improve my condition is pretty small. So maybe I could give you guys an update on what happened to me lol.

 

[meatbag]

meatbag - no, I havent been able to have those test. What specific test would be a good idea though? We do have a laboratory test in our place where I can go to. What's also a good way to increase carbon dioxide?

Ivysaur- don't know.... it is just a pill a day, so 1 gram of fish oil maybe wont cause too much harm. For someone who don't know about Peat and eat a standard diet full of PUFA + fish oil. It could be bad, but for someone who consciously reduce their PUFA intake + Fish oil its probably not the same. I'll just wait and see...

I mean the timeframe he said for me to improve my condition is pretty small. So maybe I could give you guys an update on what happened to me lol.

Well usually they do a carbon dioxide test with the blood chem and the WBC could show if you have a low grade infection but I'm not sure if it would show a small intestinal overgrowth like what Ray is saying would cause a person not to produce the lactase enzyme. I guess you could try breathing to a paperbag (so it covers mouth and nose) and see how long you can do that for, with a shorter period indicating your producing more CO2. If you have access to a hospital or a doctor or something you could try a capnometer

"
RP: Yes I’ve seen people lower their blood pressure in 2-3 days and never have another problem of eg 160 over 90, with bag breathing a few times a day for several days. You fully cover your face so no fresh air comes in, and you breathe for up to a minute before it gets oppressive where you have used up the oxygen and you are breathing pure CO2. Only do it until it is uncomfortable. Each time you do this, it teaches your brain to reset things and tolerate a little more CO2 and acidity, and in 2-3 days you can train your brain to hang onto more carbon dioxide, which improves circulation to the brain. The same effect you can get from baking soda in water. I have seen a couple of people have near instantaneous recovery from stroke, which opens up the blood vessels in the brain.

Q: The CO2 that you breathe opens the brain?

RP: Not only the brain, but also the mitochondria throughout your body so it’s making things more efficient

Q: When we breathe through mouth rather than nose at night, this can get rid of too much CO2 and this is a problem.

RP: yes the medical analysis is that people don’t breathe enough at night, but when you look at the blood chemistry the usual thing is that they hyperventilate during the night, because as their blood sugar is pushed down to sleep, their adrenaline comes up periodically and this makes them have in effect higher estrogen, higher inflammatory hormones which drives hyperventilation and blows off too much Carbon Dioxide. Then they don’t breathe for a while so they wake up feeling like they have died or have not been breathing enough . The best chemical for this is Diamox (Acetazolamide ) that causes the body to retain more carbon dioxide, it prevents the body from losing too much carbon dioxide which keeps it in the blood.
~Health And Diet - One Radio Network 4 Dec 2013

Generative Energy podcast discussing CO2 and I think haidut discussed a technique to help open up the nasal airways, I think it was around the end but I can't remember and couldn't locate a transcript:Generative Energy #11: Nitric Oxide And Methylene Blue (with Haidut)

But yup good luck with everything and let us know how it goes