Fish And Chicken And Pork And Avocadoes

yerrag

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From what I've read, fish and avocadoes are no-no's in Ray Peat's articles. Because of the high amount of PUFA's. But I also read on his articles that the makeup of fats in plants (and not sure, animals) depends a lot on where the plant is grown, and that the climate plays a large part on the makeup of the fats that form on its fruits.

When I look at sites such as www.nutritiondata.self.com, I could understand that the values given refer to foods that are typically found in the US, and that these sites would confirm what Ray Peat is saying. For example, avocado's PUFA content would be 12% for California avocado, and 17% for Florida avocado. And these would be high and understandably so.

When Ray Peat mentions fish and avocado as being unhealthful, I would suppose he refers to fish caught in cold waters, (but not necessarily tropical) and to avocado that are grown in areas that are relatively colder than the tropics. What if the fish are caught and avocado are grown in the lowlands in equatorial countries (such as Ecuador) would they have much lesser PUFA content such that they would not be bracketed under the "unhealthful" category?

Ray Peat also considers chicken and pork unhealthful, because of high PUFA content as well. I would also read it in the US context, and consider that he refers to chicken and pork generally grown in the US, fed the standard factory farm input of soy and corn and what not (GMO or not does not matter for our purposes). Feeding practices vary from country to country. I remember watching a documentary about the Jamon Iberico (Iberian Ham), from Spain, raised for 4 years in a forest, foraging on acorns, which supposedly gives them a high omega-9 content in their fat. I also think of the Philippines, where coconut by-products of coconut oil production are fed to chickens and pigs in the provinces (but not the factory farms, which pretty much follow the American factory farm model). Wouldn't the PUFA content be much, much lower in these chickens and pigs, to the extent that they pass the Ray Peat standard? I forgot also to mention that the weather in Spain and in the Philippines are much warmer than in the US mainland, so it favors the formation of higher saturated fats in the lipid profile of these animals.

I really don't know what the PUFA content of these foods are. How is the fat content analyzed? It would be nice to have the fat content of what I mention determined. Does anyone here know what this process involves? Is there a lab for that? Wonder how much it costs to analyze.
 

tara

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AIUI, Peat does not favour eating large amounts of oily fish (high PUFA), or fish that are high up the food chain (accumulate mercury), but that he's reasonably favourable to eating non-oily fish from time to time, with the provisos about not overdoing the muscle meats in relation to other parts/proteins, which would apply as it does to ruminant meat.

And he doesn't favour large amounts of avocado. But I don't take that to mean he thinks no-one should ever eat a bit of avocado if they love it.

Ray Peat also considers chicken and pork unhealthful, because of high PUFA content as well. ... Feeding practices vary from country to country.
Yes. Pigs fed a low PUFA diet and living in a warm climate should produce lower PUFA lard.

But there is also the factor that ruminants can convert a lot of the PUFAs in their diet (eg from plants like grass) into more saturated fats. Neither pigs nor chickens have this capacity.
 

tara

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I don't know about lab testing (iodine number?), but the hardness of the fat may be a reasonable indicator. The more unsaturated, the softer/more liquid.
 
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I eat chicken breast. Virtually no fat even in North America. From. peat perspective higher phosphorus and lower calcium but otherwise pretty good. It's avoiding the fat that avoids the Pufas and let's you eat them.

Lots of fish is lean too.
 

schultz

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I eat occasionally chicken breast, pork tenderloin with fat trimmed, fish like cod, sole, etc. I don't care much for avocado.

I would love to find a lab to analyze fat so I can get my eggs, chicken and pork checked. My chickens and pig eat almost exclusively potato, sugar and liver. I give them fruit scraps and stuff occasionally as well, but I imagine they must be EFAD or darn close. Based off studies I've read the eggs should be around 0.2g-0.3g PUFA each. Last time I checked it would cost $700 to get analyzed... I'm obsessive but not that obsessive lol.
 

yerrag

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AIUI, Peat does not favour eating large amounts of oily fish (high PUFA), or fish that are high up the food chain (accumulate mercury), but that he's reasonably favourable to eating non-oily fish from time to time, with the provisos about not overdoing the muscle meats in relation to other parts/proteins, which would apply as it does to ruminant meat.
So, same thing applies with fish then? Must eat more heads of grouper, then, rather than the flesh, both of which are excellent. And as you said, avoid the oily fish, where the oils are present also in flesh. For non-oily fish, avoiding the skin,where the fat resides mostly, would do a lot of good.

I don't know about lab testing (iodine number?), but the hardness of the fat may be a reasonable indicator. The more unsaturated, the softer/more liquid.
Good point. That gives me an iea. The flash point of fat with higher unsaturated content would be lower. Maybe heating the fat and noting at what temperature smoke starts to appear would give an idea as to the relative proportion of unsaturated to saturated?

I eat chicken breast. Virtually no fat even in North America. From. peat perspective higher phosphorus and lower calcium but otherwise pretty good. It's avoiding the fat that avoids the Pufas and let's you eat them.

Lots of fish is lean too.
Giving up on the wings- especially Buffalo Wings - must be hard for you. :p

I would love to find a lab to analyze fat so I can get my eggs, chicken and pork checked. My chickens and pig eat almost exclusively potato, sugar and liver. I give them fruit scraps and stuff occasionally as well, but I imagine they must be EFAD or darn close. Based off studies I've read the eggs should be around 0.2g-0.3g PUFA each. Last time I checked it would cost $700 to get analyzed... I'm obsessive but not that obsessive lol.
You must love chicken and pork to feed them those. That's obsessive enough for me. :) But I hear you, I'm just going to use the flash point test with a candy thermometer instead of shelling out $700.
 

Prota

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Diet have some influence on fat composition, but genetic of animal and plants are crutial.
 

schultz

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You must love chicken and pork to feed them those. That's obsessive enough for me. :) But I hear you, I'm just going to use the flash point test with a candy thermometer instead of shelling out $700.

Yah... it gets old lol, because I have to boil potatoes every few days. I may stop the practice after I cull this batch of animals, but then what do I feed 'em? The only other option is the regular stuff like corn, soy, various grains. I can go to the feed store and get a bag of layer feed but then my eggs are essentially just the same as store eggs. Chickens need a good amount of protein, and as Ray points out potatoes have a high quality protein.

Next growing season I would love to plant a ton of potatoes. They store well so I could feed a bunch of ducks or something very cheaply. I calculated the amount of land I would need but I don't recall how much it was... I think a 1/4 acre of potatoes would feed 15 chickens for a year or something. Obviously there are a ton of variables but you get the idea.

I really think potatoes are an amazing alternative to "traditional" livestock feeds. The one downside is the cooking. For large scale operations the other downside would be storage since grains are much more compact.
 

tara

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but then what do I feed 'em?
Don't know if you can get it where , or if it's affordable, but I wonder if copra could be a reasonable component of the diet? Probably not the whole diet, but maybe it could reduce the amountof potatoes needed?
 
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Chicken, fish, and pork meat are high in inflammatory/anti-thyroid amino acids and fish may have contaminants. Avocado grown in the tropics are still mostly monounsaturated fat because that's what the avocado tree does.
 

belcanto

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tara

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That link leads to buying cocofeed and pasture raised meat, didn't see anywhere to actually buy cocfeed. I'm not in US, so if I ever get chooks again, I'll be hunting for a more local supply.
I saw one place selling copra meal for horses and cattle that warned/suggested limiting it as a proportion of cattle supplemental feed for the risk of aflatoxin. Don't know how you minimise that risk.
 

yerrag

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Chicken, fish, and pork meat are high in inflammatory/anti-thyroid amino acids and fish may have contaminants.
True. It's how you select the parts to eat. If you include chicken feet, fish head, and pork hocks and pig ears, skin, and hocks (legs), you get a better amino acid profile with plenty of glycine and proline to balance out the tryptophan and methionine. Consider also that tryptophan and methionine are two of nine essential amino acids for humans, so they're not all that bad. To minimize mercury from fish, you can select smaller fish, less oily fish, and avoid eating the skin which has the fat layers that store most of the mercury.

Avocado grown in the tropics are still mostly monounsaturated fat because that's what the avocado tree does.
Yes, the mono fats account for more than 50% of the fats, followed by saturated fats. PUFAs, while being least, are still significant, being at least 10% of the fat content. I personally find avocadoes the least of my worries, even with the PUFA content. I love guacamole and avocado milk shake, but I only eat avocado when in season.
 

Prota

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True. It's how you select the parts to eat. If you include chicken feet, fish head, and pork hocks and pig ears, skin, and hocks (legs), you get a better amino acid profile with plenty of glycine and proline to balance out the tryptophan and methionine. Consider also that tryptophan and methionine are two of nine essential amino acids for humans, so they're not all that bad. To minimize mercury from fish, you can select smaller fish, less oily fish, and avoid eating the skin which has the fat layers that store most of the mercury.

Yes, the mono fats account for more than 50% of the fats, followed by saturated fats. PUFAs, while being least, are still significant, being at least 10% of the fat content. I personally find avocadoes the least of my worries, even with the PUFA content. I love guacamole and avocado milk shake, but I only eat avocado when in season.
True. It's how you select the parts to eat. If you include chicken feet, fish head, and pork hocks and pig ears, skin, and hocks (legs), you get a better amino acid profile with plenty of glycine and proline to balance out the tryptophan and methionine. Consider also that tryptophan and methionine are two of nine essential amino acids for humans, so they're not all that bad. To minimize mercury from fish, you can select smaller fish, less oily fish, and avoid eating the skin which has the fat layers that store most of the mercury.

Yes, the mono fats account for more than 50% of the fats, followed by saturated fats. PUFAs, while being least, are still significant, being at least 10% of the fat content. I personally find avocadoes the least of my worries, even with the PUFA content. I love guacamole and avocado milk shake, but I only eat avocado when in season.
True. It's how you select the parts to eat. If you include chicken feet, fish head, and pork hocks and pig ears, skin, and hocks (legs), you get a better amino acid profile with plenty of glycine and proline to balance out the tryptophan and methionine. Consider also that tryptophan and methionine are two of nine essential amino acids for humans, so they're not all that bad. To minimize mercury from fish, you can select smaller fish, less oily fish, and avoid eating the skin which has the fat layers that store most of the mercury.

Yes, the mono fats account for more than 50% of the fats, followed by saturated fats. PUFAs, while being least, are still significant, being at least 10% of the fat content. I personally find avocadoes the least of my worries, even with the PUFA content. I love guacamole and avocado milk shake, but I only eat avocado when in season.
True. It's how you select the parts to eat. If you include chicken feet, fish head, and pork hocks and pig ears, skin, and hocks (legs), you get a better amino acid profile with plenty of glycine and proline to balance out the tryptophan and methionine. Consider also that tryptophan and methionine are two of nine essential amino acids for humans, so they're not all that bad. To minimize mercury from fish, you can select smaller fish, less oily fish, and avoid eating the skin which has the fat layers that store most of the mercury.

Yes, the mono fats account for more than 50% of the fats, followed by saturated fats. PUFAs, while being least, are still significant, being at least 10% of the fat content. I personally find avocadoes the least of my worries, even with the PUFA content. I love guacamole and avocado milk shake, but I only eat avocado when in season.
5 Reasons Why Concerns About Mercury in Fish Are Misguided ;)
 

yerrag

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If the benefit of eating fish is the PUFAs it contains, and not eating fish will cause PUFA deficiency, and the attendant lowering of serotonin levels, it isn't convincing to the people in this forum, if I were to understate it. Missing out on selenium from eating fish would be a small trade-off for avoiding mercury intake. Still, I would still eat non-oily wild-caught fish that are low in the food chain, as they have less mercury, and I would keep from eating the skin, as the mercury would be present in the fat layers. And I still love eating the skin when it is fried crispy, but have to restrain myself more these days.
 

Prota

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If the benefit of eating fish is the PUFAs it contains, and not eating fish will cause PUFA deficiency, and the attendant lowering of serotonin levels, it isn't convincing to the people in this forum, if I were to understate it. Missing out on selenium from eating fish would be a small trade-off for avoiding mercury intake. Still, I would still eat non-oily wild-caught fish that are low in the food chain, as they have less mercury, and I would keep from eating the skin, as the mercury would be present in the fat layers. And I still love eating the skin when it is fried crispy, but have to restrain myself more these days.
Point is not PUFA, but mercury-selenium connection.

Fish whiting, low in PUFA, have enough selenium (no fear from mercury).

I don't eat oily fish.
 

BobbyDukes

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So when Ray Peat says:

''Not all fruits, of course, are perfectly safe. Avocados, for example, contain so much unsaturated fat that they can be carcinogenic and hepatotoxic''.

I presume he is talking about it being in the context of a SAD? But why bash on avocados, when they have actual nutritional quality? Bash the sunflower spread instead, lol.

Also, if you ate an avocado each day (yes, gasp, a whole one), and then ate fat free for the rest of the day, I seriously doubt that avocado is going to be destroying your body. Perhaps his quote was taken out of context? One avocado has about 4g of PUFA (well, the largest ones in the UK stores here do.. Not sure about elsewhere).

Or is it because they lack the SFAs to protect from the PUFA? So the avocado has an acute toxic effect? But then, if your body burns it straight away, is that not preferable to eating with saturated fat, where that PUFA will just be stored?

Anyone know more about this?
 

dfspcc20

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That's a shame, since raising pork and poultry fits so well into the model of an integrated farm.
 

tara

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I presume he is talking about it being in the context of a SAD? But why bash on avocados, when they have actual nutritional quality? Bash the sunflower spread instead, lol.

Also, if you ate an avocado each day (yes, gasp, a whole one), and then ate fat free for the rest of the day, I seriously doubt that avocado is going to be destroying your body. Perhaps his quote was taken out of context? One avocado has about 4g of PUFA (well, the largest ones in the UK stores here do.. Not sure about elsewhere).
Was the context one where he was suggesting making fruits a major part of the diet? If so, maybe he's reminding that that doesn't mean it's a good idea to get half your calories from avocados, rather than that one should never have a little guacamole?
 
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