Looking At Birds To Understand PUFA? High Body Temp Still Eats Seeds And Fatty Fish

[yerrag]

I just have to add this thought, as I don't think it's been brought up: Birds eat whole foods, not processed foods. If they do eat processed foods like dogs and cats and fish, they won't live that long. Seeds, nuts, fish - and certainly not pellets - are eaten by wild birds. There's omega-3 and omega-6 in them, but there's also vitamin E. Unlike most people, who take in omega-3 and omega-6 as oils where vitamin E is absent. Vitamin E keeps PUFAs from peroxidation chain reaction of these oils, which produce free radicals.

Perhaps it's also why people also get away with eating coldwater fish, and seeds, and nuts.

 

[milkboi]

I just have to add this thought, as I don't think it's been brought up: Birds eat whole foods, not processed foods. If they do eat processed foods like dogs and cats and fish, they won't live that long. Seeds, nuts, fish - and certainly not pellets - are eaten by wild birds. There's omega-3 and omega-6 in them, but there's also vitamin E. Unlike most people, who take in omega-3 and omega-6 as oils where vitamin E is absent. Vitamin E keeps PUFAs from peroxidation chain reaction of these oils, which produce free radicals.

Perhaps it's also why people also get away with eating coldwater fish, and seeds, and nuts.

The 10l sunflower and rapeseed oil bottles my flat partners use say "high vitamin E content" tho

 

[yerrag]

The 10l sunflower and rapeseed oil bottles my flat partners use say "high vitamin E content" tho

maybe what it's saying is sunflower and rapeseed has high vitamin E content, but it's not saying that the oils still contain vitamin E.

 

[milkboi]

maybe what it's saying is sunflower and rapeseed has high vitamin E content, but it's not saying that the oils still contain vitamin E.

Nah, I don't think that would fly regarding german laws. But it's still up to debate what high vitamin E content is. The oils may still have one of the highest E content among common foods even after processing, but relative to the PUFA in there, it may not be high at all.

 

[yerrag]

Nah, I don't think that would fly regarding german laws. But it's still up to debate what high vitamin E content is. The oils may still have one of the highest E content among common foods even after processing, but relative to the PUFA in there, it may not be high at all.

Yup. I wonder how much of the original quantity of vitamin E is extracted along with the oil. Compared to eating the seed with the oil and vitamin E, the seed oil would be different altogether especially after the processing. The only advantage of the oil form is that it doesn't contain anti-nutrients. The anti-nutrients don't digest well and cause inflammation in our gut, but maybe the birds have developed a way to deal with the anti-nutrients.

 

[schultz]

Do you eat 0 n6 everyday? Just 0,1% pufa of your diet is needed to normalize and stop mead acid synthesis.

It depends on the PUFA. Arachidonic acid suppresses mead acid the most and is generally said to be 3x more effective at doing so than LA. Fish oil (DHA, EPA) is not very good at suppressing mead acid and if it was the only PUFA a person was consuming you could probably eat 5-10g of it per day and still be producing enough mead acid to be considered EFAD. You are still making mead acid at 2% PUFA (for example), but when dietary PUFA is really low the amount of mead acid being produced goes up considerably.

From what I remember, it takes 0.3% of the diet as pure AA to keep animals out of an 'EFAD state', which just means the triene:tetraene ratio is at 0.4 or lower. Triene is mead acid and tetraene is AA. Old papers say that it takes (generally) 1% of the diet as LA to keep the ratio at 0.4 or lower. On a 2,000 calorie diet that is 2.22g of LA. Of course we eat a mixture of LA and AA, and also n-3's.

It's probably safe to assume that if you're eating less than 1% of your diet as PUFA then you're making mead acid. Under 0.5% for sure, because it takes 0.3% of pure AA to prevent EFAD and nobody eats all of their PUFA as AA. Beef liver is a good source of AA and 100g of liver has only 141mg of AA.

Here is a quote from this paper:
"Under the influence of dietary linoleate, the amounts of 20:3 decreased rapidly, and the curve leveled off beyond 1.9% of calories. Dietary arachidonate achieved the same level of 20:3 concentration at an intake of only 0.65%, of calories, and thus proved to be about three times more efficient than linoleate."

 

[CLASH]

read @tyw 's post.
The answer is directly in there in regards to birds and PUFA

 

[schultz]

read @tyw 's post.
The answer is directly in there in regards to birds and PUFA

Yes it seems very relevant to this thread. Enjoyable too.

Thanks @Gadsie for linking.

 

[Sativa]

Much research tend to show how DHA boost the dopamine system. And many peaters complain of the regular low dopamine symptoms such as lack of motivation, deive, sex drive, fatigue

Sorry, endocannabinoids's are made from both exogenous & endogenous PUFAs.
Keep peaters out of your 'short-sightedness' lol

Cannabinoids made from endogenous and exogenous PUFAs
______________________________________________________​

Cannabinoids made from PUFAs

Cannabinoid receptor activation is involved in homeostatic regulation of the body. These receptors are activated by cannabinoids, that include the active constituents of Cannabis sativa, as well as endocannabinoids (eCBs). The eCBs are endogenously synthesized from the omega-6 and omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs). The consumption of omega-3 fatty acids shifts the balance towards a higher proportion of omega-3 eCBs, whose physiological functions warrants further investigation. Herein, we review the discovery of omega-3 fatty acid derived eCBs that are generated from long chain omega-3 PUFAs - docosahexaenoyl ethanolamide (DHA-EA or synaptamide), docosahexanoyl-glycerol (DHG), eicosapentaenoyl ethanolamide (EPA-EA) and eicosapentanoylglycerol (EPG). Furthermore, we outline the lesser known omega-3 eCB-like molecules that arise from the conjugation of omega-3 fatty acids with neurotransmitters serotonin and dopamine - DHA-serotonin (DHA-5HT), DHA-dopamine (DHA-DA), EPA-serotonin (EPA-5HT) and EPA-dopamine (EPA-DA).
~Emerging class of omega-3 fatty acid endocannabinoids & their derivatives - ScienceDirect

Cannabinoids made from MEAD acid aka the natural bodies endogenous omega 9 pufa

The recently discovered endogenous agonist for the cannabinoid receptor, anandamide can be formed enzymatically by the condensation of arachidonic acid with ethanolamine.
...
5Z,8Z,11Z-Eicosatrienoic acid (mead acid) has been found to substitute for arachidonic acid in the sn-2 position of phospholipids and accumulate during periods of dietary fatty acid deprivation in rats
In the present study, the chemically synthesized ethanolamide of mead acid was evaluated as a potential agonist at the two known subtypes of cannabinoid receptor: CB1 (central) and CB2 (peripheral).
This compound was equipotent to anandamide
Mead ethanolamide, a novel eicosanoid, is an agonist for the central (CB1) and peripheral (CB2) cannabinoid receptors. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Kingpinguin]

Sorry, endocannabinoids's are made from both exogenous & endogenous PUFAs.
Keep peaters out of your 'short-sightedness' lol

Cannabinoids made from PUFAs

Cannabinoid receptor activation is involved in homeostatic regulation of the body. These receptors are activated by cannabinoids, that include the active constituents of Cannabis sativa, as well as endocannabinoids (eCBs). The eCBs are endogenously synthesized from the omega-6 and omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs). The consumption of omega-3 fatty acids shifts the balance towards a higher proportion of omega-3 eCBs, whose physiological functions warrants further investigation. Herein, we review the discovery of omega-3 fatty acid derived eCBs that are generated from long chain omega-3 PUFAs - docosahexaenoyl ethanolamide (DHA-EA or synaptamide), docosahexanoyl-glycerol (DHG), eicosapentaenoyl ethanolamide (EPA-EA) and eicosapentanoylglycerol (EPG). Furthermore, we outline the lesser known omega-3 eCB-like molecules that arise from the conjugation of omega-3 fatty acids with neurotransmitters serotonin and dopamine - DHA-serotonin (DHA-5HT), DHA-dopamine (DHA-DA), EPA-serotonin (EPA-5HT) and EPA-dopamine (EPA-DA).
~Emerging class of omega-3 fatty acid endocannabinoids & their derivatives - ScienceDirect

Cannabinoids made from MEAD acid aka the natural bodies endogenous omega 9 pufa

The recently discovered endogenous agonist for the cannabinoid receptor, anandamide can be formed enzymatically by the condensation of arachidonic acid with ethanolamine.
...
5Z,8Z,11Z-Eicosatrienoic acid (mead acid) has been found to substitute for arachidonic acid in the sn-2 position of phospholipids and accumulate during periods of dietary fatty acid deprivation in rats
In the present study, the chemically synthesized ethanolamide of mead acid was evaluated as a potential agonist at the two known subtypes of cannabinoid receptor: CB1 (central) and CB2 (peripheral).
This compound was equipotent to anandamide
Mead ethanolamide, a novel eicosanoid, is an agonist for the central (CB1) and peripheral (CB2) cannabinoid receptors. - PubMed - NCBI

anandamide from arachidonic acid and synaptamide from DHA doesnt share the same functions. Synaptamide has more brain, neuronal growth promoting properties boostin synapses. Likely the reason why babys brain leach their mothers DHA during pregnancy. Since mead acid seems to mimic arachidonic acid more in its pathways both at prostaglandins and endocannabinoid metabolites im curious if you know if mead acid endocannabinoid metabolite has any properties similair to synaptamide or if its only similair to anandamide? If that is the case then fish oil will still be needed for synaptamide production and synaptic health and neuronal development specially at birth. Probably thats also why DHA is higher in neruonal areas like brain and retina where synaptic health is crucial.

 

[Gadsie]

anandamide from arachidonic acid and synaptamide from DHA doesnt share the same functions. Synaptamide has more brain, neuronal growth promoting properties boostin synapses. Likely the reason why babys brain leach their mothers DHA during pregnancy. Since mead acid seems to mimic arachidonic acid more in its pathways both at prostaglandins and endocannabinoid metabolites im curious if you know if mead acid endocannabinoid metabolite has any properties similair to synaptamide or if its only similair to anandamide? If that is the case then fish oil will still be needed for synaptamide production and synaptic health and neuronal development specially at birth. Probably thats also why DHA is higher in neruonal areas like brain and retina where synaptic health is crucial.

Don’t forget that most food sources contain tiny bits of DHA, even skim milk. I think we’d have to ask whether that isn’t already enough if we need it at all

 

[Kingpinguin]

Don’t forget that most food sources contain tiny bits of DHA, even skim milk. I think we’d have to ask whether that isn’t already enough if we need it at all

yeah totally i agree with that. But as my original statement was. If you look back 100 years ago meat, eggs etc had higher ratio of n-3 than n-6 and since they seem to compete with each other in the body and ratio seems to matter. Yeah you get my point. Believe me im not saying you need to supplement with it. Was just thinking. Fish is a source of it and fish would be something that could help turn the ratio back to what it once was if you just maybe ate fish even 1 time per week. People eat seafood aswell so thats good if this matters. At this moment i dont think we really know. Consuming tons of pufa like they shown in studies is bad. But the studies used to show fish oils bad effects uses several grams way above what would had been normal from a natural diet.

ROS Are Good - ScienceDirect

”ROS are predominantly beneficial to cells, supporting basic cellular processes and viability, and oxidative stress is only an outcome of a deliberate activation of a physiological cell death pathway.

Maintaining a basal level of ROS in cells is essential for life.”

When it comes to iron and n-3 etc the body knows what it is doing and the dangers can sometimes be overstated. It all depends on the case.

 

[Gadsie]

yeah totally i agree with that. But as my original statement was. If you look back 100 years ago meat, eggs etc had higher ratio of n-3 than n-6 and since they seem to compete with each other in the body and ratio seems to matter. Yeah you get my point. Believe me im not saying you need to supplement with it. Was just thinking. Fish is a source of it and fish would be something that could help turn the ratio back to what it once was if you just maybe ate fish even 1 time per week. People eat seafood aswell so thats good if this matters. At this moment i dont think we really know. Consuming tons of pufa like they shown in studies is bad. But the studies used to show fish oils bad effects uses several grams way above what would had been normal from a natural diet.

ROS Are Good - ScienceDirect

”ROS are predominantly beneficial to cells, supporting basic cellular processes and viability, and oxidative stress is only an outcome of a deliberate activation of a physiological cell death pathway.

Maintaining a basal level of ROS in cells is essential for life.”

When it comes to iron and n-3 etc the body knows what it is doing and the dangers can sometimes be overstated. It all depends on the case.

I can't say much about the biology as I'm still learning, and especially not about ROS. When reading studies though, I tend to notice that omega 3 is often anti-inflammatory. But I think it maybe replaces, or protects against, omega 6, given that the study I linked earlier shows that EFA deficiency is more potent than omega 3. It is harmful, but less so than omega 6. If you assume that, then maybe a better way to increase the omega3:6 ratio is to decrease omega 6 instead of increasing omega 3.

Personally I try to keep a diet of mostly skim milk, fruit, and potatoes. My 1 oyster a week would probably fulfil the potential DHA requirement.

 

[Kingpinguin]

I can't say much about the biology as I'm still learning, and especially not about ROS. When reading studies though, I tend to notice that omega 3 is often anti-inflammatory. But I think it maybe replaces, or protects against, omega 6, given that the study I linked earlier shows that EFA deficiency is more potent than omega 3. It is harmful, but less so than omega 6. If you assume that, then maybe a better way to increase the omega3:6 ratio is to decrease omega 6 instead of increasing omega 3.

Personally I try to keep a diet of mostly skim milk, fruit, and potatoes. My 1 oyster a week would probably fulfil the potential DHA requirement.

absolutely everyone should strive to keep pufa as low as possible. But keeping n-6 is close to impossible or very low is not realistic in todays society since its almost everywhere including the animal feed so the animals are higher in n-6 aswell. Peating and eating grass feed is likely the healthiest thing you can do. But for many people that is not always possible. Lots of peater still get couple of grams of n-6 per day. Doing zero n-3 tho is not just easy its hard to get n-3 today unless you eat grassfeed and maybe occasional fish/seafood. So even if you’re eating as close to zero pufa as possible you will accumulate more n-6 than n-3 long term. Vitamin E, aspirin tools to block the damage from n-6 but an occasional fish meal could also be beneficial in those terms and i doubt it will do much harm. There is aspects of n-3 that make it seem to have some good biological effects. As mentioned earlier the cannabinoid synaptamide has different biological effects compared to anandamide and mead acids endocannabinoid metabolite.

 

[yerrag]

When reading studies though, I tend to notice that omega 3 is often anti-inflammatory. But I think it maybe replaces, or protects against, omega 6, given that the study I linked earlier shows that EFA deficiency is more potent than omega 3. It is harmful, but less so than omega 6. If you assume that, then maybe a better way to increase the omega3:6 ratio is to decrease omega 6 instead of increasing omega 3.

This is an idea that's very inconsistent with Ray Peat's thoughts. Especially the idea that omega-3 balances omega-6. That omega-6 is inflammatory and omega-3 is anti-inflammatory falls within the belief system that PUFAs are essential to our health, and that saturated fats are really bad. Instead of saturated fats vs. PUFA, the conversation is about having enough omega-3 to counter omega-6. Yet Ray Peat considers omega-3 to be more harmful than omega-6, for its stronger ability to cause lipid peroxidation chain reactions that produces free radicals that destroy tissues.

 

[Gadsie]

This is an idea that's very inconsistent with Ray Peat's thoughts. Especially the idea that omega-3 balances omega-6. That omega-6 is inflammatory and omega-3 is anti-inflammatory falls within the belief system that PUFAs are essential to our health, and that saturated fats are really bad. Instead of saturated fats vs. PUFA, the conversation is about having enough omega-3 to counter omega-6. Yet Ray Peat considers omega-3 to be more harmful than omega-6, for its stronger ability to cause lipid peroxidation chain reactions that produces free radicals that destroy tissues.

I don't know much about the biology and the way these studies are performed. EFA deficiency is still superior to omega-3 so I still stand with peat, but maybe omega 3 somehow reduces the inflammatory effects of omega 6 a little bit. PUFA depletion > deep fried pork + omega 3 supplementation > deep fried pork, would be my reasoning .

absolutely everyone should strive to keep pufa as low as possible. But keeping n-6 is close to impossible or very low is not realistic in todays society since its almost everywhere including the animal feed so the animals are higher in n-6 aswell. Peating and eating grass feed is likely the healthiest thing you can do. But for many people that is not always possible. Lots of peater still get couple of grams of n-6 per day. Doing zero n-3 tho is not just easy its hard to get n-3 today unless you eat grassfeed and maybe occasional fish/seafood. So even if you’re eating as close to zero pufa as possible you will accumulate more n-6 than n-3 long term. Vitamin E, aspirin tools to block the damage from n-6 but an occasional fish meal could also be beneficial in those terms and i doubt it will do much harm. There is aspects of n-3 that make it seem to have some good biological effects. As mentioned earlier the cannabinoid synaptamide has different biological effects compared to anandamide and mead acids endocannabinoid metabolite.

Yes that makes sense. But that's why I stick to the most fatless food I can think of (skim milk, potatoes, fruit), so my omega-6 is actually close to 0.

 

[yerrag]

I don't know much about the biology and the way these studies are performed. EFA deficiency is still superior to omega-3 so I still stand with peat, but maybe omega 3 somehow reduces the inflammatory effects of omega 6 a little bit. PUFA depletion > deep fried pork + omega 3 supplementation > deep fried pork, would be my reasoning .

You'll be fine. I was heavy on health food stores stuff like fish oil, flaxseed oil, and hemp seed oils. I was on Wesson cooking oil. Without hearing of Ray Peat, I would probably be still on it, and my mind would continue to see how much healthy I was. I would probably be getting more chronically diseased, and with each step towards a deeper level of unhealth, I would probably also believe doctors telling me it's in my genes and that I'm also getting older. I can check on my friends and there would be a positive confirmation of these "facts." I would ask my friends and family to pray for me as well.

I would probably have arthritis and I'd keep on taking fish oil for its "anti-inflammatory effect," and finding no cure, and seeing the pain spread to my knees and hips and shoulders, I may keep on taking fish oils in order to somehow arrest this deterioration. All the while the fish oil is actually causing the inflammation while I was still sitting pretty congratulating myself that it could have been worsen, as I count my blessings lol. By then I would be taking prescription drugs and finding comfort in seeing my contemporaries sharing a similar experience.

But knowing differently, I'm able to get rid of my arthritic knee as I wasn't looking to fish oils to fix it. I wasn't distracted by its false utility, and I was able to pursue other areas to help with my arthritis. I looked at oxidative metabolism and the many ways to improve it, I looked at acid-base balance, and filling my electrolyte deficiencies, and I also looked at the infectious and endotoxin angle on it. One less major distraction gives me a chance to head into a diametrically opposite direction, towards true healing and not relying on crutches - drugs, surgery, devices - just to keep myself going.

 

[postman]

yeah totally i agree with that. But as my original statement was. If you look back 100 years ago meat, eggs etc had higher ratio of n-3 than n-6 and since they seem to compete with each other in the body and ratio seems to matter. Yeah you get my point. Believe me im not saying you need to supplement with it. Was just thinking. Fish is a source of it and fish would be something that could help turn the ratio back to what it once was if you just maybe ate fish even 1 time per week. People eat seafood aswell so thats good if this matters. At this moment i dont think we really know. Consuming tons of pufa like they shown in studies is bad. But the studies used to show fish oils bad effects uses several grams way above what would had been normal from a natural diet.

ROS Are Good - ScienceDirect

”ROS are predominantly beneficial to cells, supporting basic cellular processes and viability, and oxidative stress is only an outcome of a deliberate activation of a physiological cell death pathway.

Maintaining a basal level of ROS in cells is essential for life.”

When it comes to iron and n-3 etc the body knows what it is doing and the dangers can sometimes be overstated. It all depends on the case.

I disagree. If you eat fatty fish once a week you're going to kill your mead acid production. It's one of the worst things you can do healthwise. If you eat processed foods with tons of omega 6 then maybe omega 3 will be protective

 

[yerrag]

I disagree. If you eat fatty fish once a week you're going to kill your mead acid production. It's one of the worst things you can do healthwise. If you eat processed foods with tons of omega 6 then maybe omega 3 will be protective

I fail to see why correcting something bad with something worse can be protective.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I fail to see why correcting something bad with something worse can be protective.

From Ray's article about fish oil:
"Despite the nutritional value of those vitamins, fish oils are generally much more immunosuppressive than the seed oils, and the early effects of fish oil on the "immune system" include the suppression of prostaglandin synthesis, because the more highly unsaturated long chain fats interfere with the conversion of linoleic acid into arachidonic acid and prostaglandins. The prostaglandins are so problematic that their suppression is helpful, whether the inhibition is caused by aspirin or vitamin E, or by fish oil."

So omega-3s are less inflammatory than omega- 6s, but EFA deficiency would still be better than having a nice Omega-3 to Omega-6 ratio, since fish oil and other exogenous PUFAs are very immunosuppressive. and cause liver damage, as well as skin damage.