Acne, Vitamin A, Thyroid, Zinc Etc

jaakkima

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Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
312
Hi there,

Ever since starting to follow Peat a year ago my face has blown up with acne and inflammation. I tried Nutrisorb A, aspirin topically, coffee topically, niacinamide, A from liver, incandescent light etc.... and really nothing helped. Recently I got serious about it and realized that I might need huge doses the likes of which I had not tried. So I got several bottles of Nutrisorb A and stocked up on liver. I'd have 4 oz of liver a day and got up to hundreds of thousands of IU of Nutrisorb per day and then my acne started going away. In reading around here I came across someone stating that in similar circumstances there may be a zinc deficiency. So... the only zinc I had around was some zinc oxide from purebulk.com : I tried a big dose orally. It seemed to majorly improve the acne quickly, as well as that night improving my stomach problems and making me sleep soundly, apparently. So I figured I probably had a zinc deficiency or copper excess or something like that (doesn't copper synergize with estrogen? what would be the circumstances for that? I know I have estrogen issues). So I repeated the zinc dose the next couple days but my acne started coming back and my face is not looking so hot. Also on the repeated zinc doses it did not seem to help my sleep or stomach. So I was confused. Perhaps it was also because I ran out of Nutrisorb (since I have to keep ordering bottles and I'm basically broke now). But I'm thinking of trying a different type of zinc supplement. Meanwhile now I'm eating like a pound of liver a day at the moment.

One factor I have not gotten a handle on, conceptually, is thyroid. I have been supplementing with cynoplus for a few months with some moderate results I think. However, I have never reached a state of sufficiently warm hands and feet, and yet I am wondering if I have anyhow reached too high a dose and should lower it. Can the hands and feet still be cold with a high enough thyroid dose and how? How would I know if I'm too high? Lately I've been at 3/4 of a tab, worked up to over a couple months I think. I think I may go down to half a tab while sorting these issues out.

I know there must be other factors I have not rooted out also because I had the face blow-up going on while I was not on thyroid supps. I suspect that gelatin was causing problems for me but I'm not sure honestly. I cut out all gelatin just recently and all my issues seem to have improved. Could/would a person have some sort of intolerance to gelatin? One thing I know is that the stuff always made me gag, except when I added it into potato soup and less so with broth gelatin.

Well, back to the face issue... Frankly it's a big pain in the ass because I'm good looking, but I am trying to woo a quite wonderful girl and with this stuff going on it's making my lady-courting a more self-conscious affair. :lol:

Opinions? Ideas?
Take care all
 

jyb

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UK
From my experience...

It's good to check whether the acne flares correlate with gut problems (eg, a slower transit time). If it does, it means more can be done to help the gut, for example more safe fiber for a regular transit. Gelatin can be a major problem for acne as if undigested can feed bad bacteria and cause acne - best to split into small doses throughout the day. This could happen if you have poor digestion and take a large amount of gelatin in a single dose. Safest for digestion is hydrolyzed gelatin.

I've read zinc oxide hardly gets absorbed. I've also read that zinc orotate would be the best for absorption, but the only brand I've ever found with orotate had a list of funky ingredients I would not want to ingest, so I've tried some zinc piccolinate as it is claimed to be absorbed decently. In my experience, supplementing zinc doesn't seem to be better for the skin than oysters (when I can afford the time and effort, I take 3-4 oysters daily for a few days to be sure nutrients get absorbed well). But some seem to swear by zinc supplements, so its worth an experiment I think.
 

whitnatchee

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Nov 9, 2013
Messages
17
I've had acne now for 44 years and have spent probably over 60 or 80K trying to rid my self of it.
If you are in your twenties, I think that RP has the best answers. I have tried all the others.
Be sure to keep a record of your success and failures and not repeat anything that does not work. I can tell you that I have spent a lot of money on supplements and have had little success.
If I had it to do all over again I would get my horoscope done, or whatever means to discover your life's meaning and not be influenced by someone else's ideas of how you should experience your life.
The things that I believe have caused me the most harm were not understanding metabolism, testosterone, and thyroid. Doing anything that short changes your ability to regulate your metabolism will mess your whole system.
Do not expect quick results!
One thing about the girl thing, they do not care if you have acne, no head hair or.....
Please keep us updated on your progress.
 

jaakkima

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Thread starter
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Messages
312
Ok. I'm 29 & been peating a year so I'm imagining in a couple more years my body will be in much better condition without pufa estrogen iron excess etc

One thing I'm noticing is that with the large vit A doses my digestionand everything else is seemingly improving tons, way more than gelatin ever helped... no matter however I took it. So I'm starting to think my problems were always more deficiency-oriented than otherwise... and maybe.increasing metabolism has hurt this at times.

I'm starting to understand things better- including first and foremost my life's sense and purpose :) and that is one thing that's giving strength and confidence with things including the lovely lass thing

Take care all
 

TheCanadian

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Dec 18, 2013
Messages
7
Might wanna try Pantethine or Panthotenic acid to help you regulate this . Pantethine 900mg a day divived or 1.5 - 2,0 gr of Panthothenic acid, make sure u take some Biotin with it , B5 tends to deplete Biotin.
 

jaakkima

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Oct 8, 2012
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Hi

Can you refer me to any source of information about pantothenic acid / pantethine that would help me understand why I may want to take it? Thanks
 

jaakkima

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Oct 8, 2012
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312
Jyb,

Before you posted I already had purchased the zinc orotate I assume you refer to (I couldn't find an ingredient list anywhere). Can you tell me what the hell Acivel, Ac-Di-Sol, Compritol, and Plasdone are? Dear lord...
 

jaakkima

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Messages
312
Holy cow, I tried Progest-E on my face and am looking years younger overnight. The A helped with pimples but not so much the larger inflammation & redness that accumulated. The Progest-E is doing what hoped.
 

jyb

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Nov 9, 2012
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jaakkima said:
Jyb,

Before you posted I already had purchased the zinc orotate I assume you refer to (I couldn't find an ingredient list anywhere). Can you tell me what the hell Acivel, Ac-Di-Sol, Compritol, and Plasdone are? Dear lord...

I don't need to research that to guess it should be avoided. However, if you already purchased it then its still worth an experiment - just maybe not something to take over the long run due to excipients.
 

jyb

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Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,771
Location
UK
jaakkima said:
Holy cow, I tried Progest-E on my face and am looking years younger overnight. The A helped with pimples but not so much the larger inflammation & redness that accumulated. The Progest-E is doing what hoped.

What was your protocol? I don't think my acne prone areas can handle the viscous glycerin raw.
 

jaakkima

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Thread starter
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Oct 8, 2012
Messages
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I don't know, I'm scared to try. What with my gut issue history... Maybe shellfish but I've been avoidibg them due to Fukushima.
 

jaakkima

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Thread starter
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
312
jyb said:
jaakkima said:
Holy cow, I tried Progest-E on my face and am looking years younger overnight. The A helped with pimples but not so much the larger inflammation & redness that accumulated. The Progest-E is doing what hoped.

What was your protocol? I don't think my acne prone areas can handle the viscous glycerin raw.

Glycerin?

Just liberally using it but actually the verdict is out, I'm not sure if I'm fooling myself. Still trying it. It may be helping. I am not sure how much.
 

Amazoniac

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Clinical implications of lipid peroxidation in acne vulgaris: old wine in new bottles

"In the past, it was thought that follicular plugging (comedones) preceded Propionibacterium acnes (P. acnes) colonization, which subsequently resulted in inflammation (papules and pustules). This sequence of events has been called into question in recent years. It has been discovered that subclinical inflammatory events are occurring in acne-prone skin even prior to hyperproliferative and abnormal differentiation events [11,12]. The reason for elevated pro-inflammatory factors, such as interleukin-1 (IL-1), around the clinically normal pilosebaceous follicles of acne patients remains unknown. At this point it simply highlights that the release of inflammatory chemicals is indeed one of the earliest events to occur in the acne process. Furthermore, oxidative stress within the pilosebaceous unit alters the environment from one that is unsuitable to harbor anaerobic bacteria to one that is perfectly suited for the colonization of such species [13]. P. acnes, once thought to be the initiating factor of inflammatory acne, might never make the pilosebaceous unit its home were it not for this initial inflammatory insult to the sebum. Oxidation of sebum alters oxygen tension in the follicle, resulting in the micro-aerophilic environment required for P. acnes to survive. Apparently, inflammation and oxidative stress might set the stage for all subsequent pathogenic factors leading to acne."

"It was also noted, a quarter century ago, that the therapeutic value of tetracycline antibiotics in acne might be due to their ability to act as antioxidants [29]."

"Hydrogen peroxide is a reactive oxygen species (ROS) produced by neutrophils, and as with other ROS, it is well capable of promoting inflammation, causing tissue damage and further lipid destruction. Hydrogen peroxide production was measured from whole blood samples taken from adults with inflammatory acne vs. healthy controls. Patients with inflammatory acne had significantly higher production of hydrogen peroxide, 43% more than healthy controls. After treatment with minocycline there was a 25% reduction in whole blood, microbial and chemically stimulated, neutrophil hydrogen peroxide production."

"[..]since minocycline and other tetracycline antibiotics are now known to have clear antioxidant properties, particularly in reducing lipid peroxidation in potency similar to vitamin E [38], the results lend further support to the suggestion - 17 years earlier - that this class of antibiotics may be helping via non-antimicrobial pathways in reduction of ROS. Indeed, a recent investigation showed that doxycycline, at sub-antimicrobial doses, reduced papules and pustules by over 80% after 3 months in those with moderate facial acne [39]."
@Such_Saturation

"Some of the emerging studies have also measured plasma and serum levels of antioxidant nutrients in acne patients. Among 100 newly diagnosed and untreated acne patients, plasma levels of vitamins A and E were significantly lower than controls."

"Low serum levels of vitamin A in untreated acne patients had been previously documented in 1978 [42]. The contemporary investigation also added in an additional blood enzyme as an end-point - platelet monoamine oxidase (MAO) - the activity of which has been implicated in a variety of mental health disorders, including anxiety and depression. The investigators found low MAO activity in acne, a finding which, while not universal, is consistent with previous investigations in affective disorders [43]. As we will discuss shortly, this finding has enormous implications in the lipid peroxidation theory of acne and its overlap with the emerging research showing oxidative stress is not a mere consequence of mental health disorders."

"In support of previous research, it has become increasingly clear that squalene production is highly upregulated in acne. Overall acne patients have 59% more sebum than healthy controls, yet it is squalene that emerges as the specific lipid that is being produced in abundance - 2.2-fold higher vs. controls [44]. As expected, an increase in squalene sets the stage for significantly higher levels of squalene peroxides and diminished vitamin E in the sebum of acne patients [45]. Squalene peroxides also diminish the important skin antioxidant glutathione, while pre-treatment with glutathione depleting agents (DL-buthionine sulfoximine and diethyl maleate) makes the comedogenic potential of squalene peroxides even worse [46]. In smokers with acne the squalene peroxidation and vitamin E reduction is even more pronounced [47]. Not only are the squalene peroxides confirmed to be highly comeodogenic [48], they have recently been reported to set an inflammatory cascade in motion. Specifically, exposure of peroxidated squalene products to human keratinocyte cells stimulates production of inflammatory cytokines and upregulates lipoxygenase (LOX) activity [49]."

"Examination of comedo samples (20-30 comedones from each patient) removed from acne patients shows that lipid peroxidation is evident even in the earliest microcomedo. As the disease progresses to inflamed lesions there is an up to 4-fold increase in lipid peroxide levels [53]. The marked increase in lipid peroxidation once inflammation is ongoing is to be expected. Undoubtedly ROS can provoke the secretion of inflammatory cytokines; however, once initiated, inflammatory chemicals cause a subsequent increase in ROS production [54]."

"Why is it that despite marked clinical success with topical and oral interventions, a number of studies using validated measurements of depression, mood and quality of life, indicates that the mental outlook remains unchanged [55-58]?"

"[..]oral vitamin E consumption can take weeks before sebum levels are significantly elevated [125]."

"It has been well documented that a period of insulin resistance occurs during puberty [139], one coinciding with the development of acne, depression and/or anxiety."

"BP [Benzoyl Peroxide] reduces epidermal vitamin E by up to 95% and vitamin C by up to 70% [154]."
 
Last edited:

Koveras

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Joined
Dec 17, 2015
Messages
719
Clinical implications of lipid peroxidation in acne vulgaris: old wine in new bottles

"In the past, it was thought that follicular plugging (comedones) preceded Propionibacterium acnes (P. acnes) colonization, which subsequently resulted in inflammation (papules and pustules). This sequence of events has been called into question in recent years. It has been discovered that subclinical inflammatory events are occurring in acne-prone skin even prior to hyperproliferative and abnormal differentiation events [11,12]. The reason for elevated pro-inflammatory factors, such as interleukin-1 (IL-1), around the clinically normal pilosebaceous follicles of acne patients remains unknown. At this point it simply highlights that the release of inflammatory chemicals is indeed one of the earliest events to occur in the acne process. Furthermore, oxidative stress within the pilosebaceous unit alters the environment from one that is unsuitable to harbor anaerobic bacteria to one that is perfectly suited for the colonization of such species [13]. P. acnes, once thought to be the initiating factor of inflammatory acne, might never make the pilosebaceous unit its home were it not for this initial inflammatory insult to the sebum. Oxidation of sebum alters oxygen tension in the follicle, resulting in the micro-aerophilic environment required for P. acnes to survive. Apparently, inflammation and oxidative stress might set the stage for all subsequent pathogenic factors leading to acne."

"It was also noted, a quarter century ago, that the therapeutic value of tetracycline antibiotics in acne might be due to their ability to act as antioxidants [29]."

"Hydrogen peroxide is a reactive oxygen species (ROS) produced by neutrophils, and as with other ROS, it is well capable of promoting inflammation, causing tissue damage and further lipid destruction. Hydrogen peroxide production was measured from whole blood samples taken from adults with inflammatory acne vs. healthy controls. Patients with inflammatory acne had significantly higher production of hydrogen peroxide, 43% more than healthy controls. After treatment with minocycline there was a 25% reduction in whole blood, microbial and chemically stimulated, neutrophil hydrogen peroxide production."

"[..]since minocycline and other tetracycline antibiotics are now known to have clear antioxidant properties, particularly in reducing lipid peroxidation in potency similar to vitamin E [38], the results lend further support to the suggestion - 17 years earlier - that this class of antibiotics may be helping via non-antimicrobial pathways in reduction of ROS. Indeed, a recent investigation showed that doxycycline, at sub-antimicrobial doses, reduced papules and pustules by over 80% after 3 months in those with moderate facial acne [39]."
@Such_Saturation

"Some of the emerging studies have also measured plasma and serum levels of antioxidant nutrients in acne patients. Among 100 newly diagnosed and untreated acne patients, plasma levels of vitamins A and E were significantly lower than controls."

"Low serum levels of vitamin A in untreated acne patients had been previously documented in 1978 [42]. The contemporary investigation also added in an additional blood enzyme as an end-point - platelet monoamine oxidase (MAO) - the activity of which has been implicated in a variety of mental health disorders, including anxiety and depression. The investigators found low MAO activity in acne, a finding which, while not universal, is consistent with previous investigations in affective disorders [43]. As we will discuss shortly, this finding has enormous implications in the lipid peroxidation theory of acne and its overlap with the emerging research showing oxidative stress is not a mere consequence of mental health disorders."

"In support of previous research, it has become increasingly clear that squalene production is highly upregulated in acne. Overall acne patients have 59% more sebum than healthy controls, yet it is squalene that emerges as the specific lipid that is being produced in abundance - 2.2-fold higher vs. controls [44]. As expected, an increase in squalene sets the stage for significantly higher levels of squalene peroxides and diminished vitamin E in the sebum of acne patients [45]. Squalene peroxides also diminish the important skin antioxidant glutathione, while pre-treatment with glutathione depleting agents (DL-buthionine sulfoximine and diethyl maleate) makes the comedogenic potential of squalene peroxides even worse [46]. In smokers with acne the squalene peroxidation and vitamin E reduction is even more pronounced [47]. Not only are the squalene peroxides confirmed to be highly comeodogenic [48], they have recently been reported to set an inflammatory cascade in motion. Specifically, exposure of peroxidated squalene products to human keratinocyte cells stimulates production of inflammatory cytokines and upregulates lipoxygenase (LOX) activity [49]."

"Examination of comedo samples (20-30 comedones from each patient) removed from acne patients shows that lipid peroxidation is evident even in the earliest microcomedo. As the disease progresses to inflamed lesions there is an up to 4-fold increase in lipid peroxide levels [53]. The marked increase in lipid peroxidation once inflammation is ongoing is to be expected. Undoubtedly ROS can provoke the secretion of inflammatory cytokines; however, once initiated, inflammatory chemicals cause a subsequent increase in ROS production [54]."

"Why is it that despite marked clinical success with topical and oral interventions, a number of studies using validated measurements of depression, mood and quality of life, indicates that the mental outlook remains unchanged [55-58]?"

"[..]oral vitamin E consumption can take weeks before sebum levels are significantly elevated [125]."

"It has been well documented that a period of insulin resistance occurs during puberty [139], one coinciding with the development of acne, depression and/or anxiety."

"BP [Benzoyl Peroxide] reduces epidermal vitamin E by up to 95% and vitamin C by up to 70% [154]."

Good stuff
 

tomisonbottom

Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
907
Clinical implications of lipid peroxidation in acne vulgaris: old wine in new bottles

"In the past, it was thought that follicular plugging (comedones) preceded Propionibacterium acnes (P. acnes) colonization, which subsequently resulted in inflammation (papules and pustules). This sequence of events has been called into question in recent years. It has been discovered that subclinical inflammatory events are occurring in acne-prone skin even prior to hyperproliferative and abnormal differentiation events [11,12]. The reason for elevated pro-inflammatory factors, such as interleukin-1 (IL-1), around the clinically normal pilosebaceous follicles of acne patients remains unknown. At this point it simply highlights that the release of inflammatory chemicals is indeed one of the earliest events to occur in the acne process. Furthermore, oxidative stress within the pilosebaceous unit alters the environment from one that is unsuitable to harbor anaerobic bacteria to one that is perfectly suited for the colonization of such species [13]. P. acnes, once thought to be the initiating factor of inflammatory acne, might never make the pilosebaceous unit its home were it not for this initial inflammatory insult to the sebum. Oxidation of sebum alters oxygen tension in the follicle, resulting in the micro-aerophilic environment required for P. acnes to survive. Apparently, inflammation and oxidative stress might set the stage for all subsequent pathogenic factors leading to acne."

"It was also noted, a quarter century ago, that the therapeutic value of tetracycline antibiotics in acne might be due to their ability to act as antioxidants [29]."

"Hydrogen peroxide is a reactive oxygen species (ROS) produced by neutrophils, and as with other ROS, it is well capable of promoting inflammation, causing tissue damage and further lipid destruction. Hydrogen peroxide production was measured from whole blood samples taken from adults with inflammatory acne vs. healthy controls. Patients with inflammatory acne had significantly higher production of hydrogen peroxide, 43% more than healthy controls. After treatment with minocycline there was a 25% reduction in whole blood, microbial and chemically stimulated, neutrophil hydrogen peroxide production."

"[..]since minocycline and other tetracycline antibiotics are now known to have clear antioxidant properties, particularly in reducing lipid peroxidation in potency similar to vitamin E [38], the results lend further support to the suggestion - 17 years earlier - that this class of antibiotics may be helping via non-antimicrobial pathways in reduction of ROS. Indeed, a recent investigation showed that doxycycline, at sub-antimicrobial doses, reduced papules and pustules by over 80% after 3 months in those with moderate facial acne [39]."
@Such_Saturation

"Some of the emerging studies have also measured plasma and serum levels of antioxidant nutrients in acne patients. Among 100 newly diagnosed and untreated acne patients, plasma levels of vitamins A and E were significantly lower than controls."

"Low serum levels of vitamin A in untreated acne patients had been previously documented in 1978 [42]. The contemporary investigation also added in an additional blood enzyme as an end-point - platelet monoamine oxidase (MAO) - the activity of which has been implicated in a variety of mental health disorders, including anxiety and depression. The investigators found low MAO activity in acne, a finding which, while not universal, is consistent with previous investigations in affective disorders [43]. As we will discuss shortly, this finding has enormous implications in the lipid peroxidation theory of acne and its overlap with the emerging research showing oxidative stress is not a mere consequence of mental health disorders."

"In support of previous research, it has become increasingly clear that squalene production is highly upregulated in acne. Overall acne patients have 59% more sebum than healthy controls, yet it is squalene that emerges as the specific lipid that is being produced in abundance - 2.2-fold higher vs. controls [44]. As expected, an increase in squalene sets the stage for significantly higher levels of squalene peroxides and diminished vitamin E in the sebum of acne patients [45]. Squalene peroxides also diminish the important skin antioxidant glutathione, while pre-treatment with glutathione depleting agents (DL-buthionine sulfoximine and diethyl maleate) makes the comedogenic potential of squalene peroxides even worse [46]. In smokers with acne the squalene peroxidation and vitamin E reduction is even more pronounced [47]. Not only are the squalene peroxides confirmed to be highly comeodogenic [48], they have recently been reported to set an inflammatory cascade in motion. Specifically, exposure of peroxidated squalene products to human keratinocyte cells stimulates production of inflammatory cytokines and upregulates lipoxygenase (LOX) activity [49]."

"Examination of comedo samples (20-30 comedones from each patient) removed from acne patients shows that lipid peroxidation is evident even in the earliest microcomedo. As the disease progresses to inflamed lesions there is an up to 4-fold increase in lipid peroxide levels [53]. The marked increase in lipid peroxidation once inflammation is ongoing is to be expected. Undoubtedly ROS can provoke the secretion of inflammatory cytokines; however, once initiated, inflammatory chemicals cause a subsequent increase in ROS production [54]."

"Why is it that despite marked clinical success with topical and oral interventions, a number of studies using validated measurements of depression, mood and quality of life, indicates that the mental outlook remains unchanged [55-58]?"

"[..]oral vitamin E consumption can take weeks before sebum levels are significantly elevated [125]."

"It has been well documented that a period of insulin resistance occurs during puberty [139], one coinciding with the development of acne, depression and/or anxiety."

"BP [Benzoyl Peroxide] reduces epidermal vitamin E by up to 95% and vitamin C by up to 70% [154]."

This is interesting......I thought Squalene was good for topical products. I wonder if it's like the cholesterol/heart disease issues where excess cholesterol is mistakenly thought to be the problem because of it's excess, when really it's just the body trying to compensate for the real cause. Maybe squalene is not the problem but just a symptom of the problem.
 

Amazoniac

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Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
7,769
Location
Not Uganda
This is interesting......I thought Squalene was good for topical products. I wonder if it's like the cholesterol/heart disease issues where excess cholesterol is mistakenly thought to be the problem because of it's excess, when really it's just the body trying to compensate for the real cause. Maybe squalene is not the problem but just a symptom of the problem.
TocoVit - Liquid Vitamin E From Wheat Germ Oil
 
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