Acne - Sebum Reduction

[Orion]

Awesome thanks for the update.
How are your palms - do you get orange calluses from too much vitamin A? I suppose you still have your daily liver, right?

How is the thyriod supplement affecting you in general (especially in terms of acne)?

Calluses seem ok, not orange maybe somewhat yellow. Small piece of liver twice per week.

NDT seemed to only help with keeping pulse and basal temps up. Stopped NDT but temps and pulse still seem ok without.

 

[ilovethesea]

I wanted to jump in here and share my results! I tried this experiment and imo the op is right - taking sugar every 30 mins definitely does work to reduce oil production. I bought sugar cubes for this purpose.

However I also agree about vitamin A. I think maybe people who aren't getting results may just not be taking enough?

Thank you for the recommendation of Genestra A Mulsion retinyl palmitate. I bought it and the high dose is working great for my skin - 100,000 IU has caused no problems at all. I think it's much better than Retinil. I know Ray prefers retinyl palmitate according to a Lita Lee article.

 

[EIRE24]

I wanted to jump in here and share my results! I tried this experiment and imo the op is right - taking sugar every 30 mins definitely does work to reduce oil production. I bought sugar cubes for this purpose.

However I also agree about vitamin A. I think maybe people who aren't getting results may just not be taking enough?

Thank you for the recommendation of Genestra A Mulsion retinyl palmitate. I bought it and the high dose is working great for my skin - 100,000 IU has caused no problems at all. I think it's much better than Retinil. I know Ray prefers retinyl palmitate according to a Lita Lee article.

So you think frequent feeding and vitamin A is best for elimination of acne? What else does your diet look like?

 

[ilovethesea]

I think the vitamin A is the most important. That alone clears my skin completely.

The sugar thing is good for decreasing oiliness but I found the vitamin A fixed that as well. I'm still trying to do the sugar as I think it's good for stress reduction in general. I often forget to eat enough for long periods of time while I'm working. It seems to help keep cortisol response down.

I also like pregenolone and I take thyroid. Both have good effects on skin.

My diet is mostly milk. Orange juice, fruit, coffee, Greek yogurt, shellfish, potato, chocolate milk, occasional cheese. I have a lot of sensitivities so I can't do much starch. And I can't eat eggs.

 

[EIRE24]

I think the vitamin A is the most important. That alone clears my skin completely.

The sugar thing is good for decreasing oiliness but I found the vitamin A fixed that as well. I'm still trying to do the sugar as I think it's good for stress reduction in general. I often forget to eat enough for long periods of time while I'm working. It seems to help keep cortisol response down.

I also like pregenolone and I take thyroid. Both have good effects on skin.

My diet is mostly milk. Orange juice, fruit, coffee, Greek yogurt, shellfish, potato, chocolate milk, occasional cheese. I have a lot of sensitivities so I can't do much starch. And I can't eat eggs.

I've actually never done high doses of vitamin A like people on here do so I'm not sure if that helps or not with my skin problem?

What sensitivities do you get exactly from starches?

 

[Orion]

I've actually never done high doses of vitamin A like people on here do so I'm not sure if that helps or not with my skin problem?

What sensitivities do you get exactly from starches?

I agree with @ilovethesea sugar helps with keeping cortisol down and sebum, but vitamin A is the 'cure' for acne.

I have been on 200K IU to 500K IU for almost 3 months now. Finding that 500K IU is working better for me, I have no ill effects other then skin healing and skin improvements. I was gonna to wait another 3 months to post results, but so far only healing and no adverse affects. Staying closer to 500K IU has finally got my dandruff to start healing as well. Millions of flakes to much much less!


Here is a thread were I discuss some thoughts on Acne with another forum member:

"
Here is my take on acne, after years of reading blogs and experimenting, low-carb, etc... all the way to finding Peat. It has to do with calcium metabolism, simple story is that vitamin D moves calcium into the body (bones, skin, etc) and vitamin A moves it out. With vitamin K helping to direct calcium to bones and not soft tissue. I have no idea what the science is, but seems likely. Too much calcium in the soft tissue (skin), screws up shedding, sebum production, healing abilities. So I believe once this is balanced, you will be able to lower the amount of vit A required in the diet. I think aspirin will help with this as well.

I am not sure how the calcium metabolism messes up, but as teens I guess the vitamin A/D, magnesium/calcium, estrogen/progesterone ratios get screwed up, with maybe genetics and how things in there womb with your mother were...

I can not find any studies that support this, other then one that said (below), unsaturated oils on the skin, draw calcium into the cells, hence calcifying skin, and the skin not being healthy from this. So another good reason to avoid PUFAs. Just a theory, but I think its on the right track. I grew up on PUFAs and tons and tons of milk, acne started as a young teen for me. Never ate liver, vit A stores would have been zero.

Unsaturated fatty acids induce calcium influx into keratinocytes and cause abnormal differentiation of epidermis. - PubMed - NCBI

So basically too much calcium in the soft tissues, is not good, needs to be directed to the bones... I would assume either by diet or using crappy oils to moisturize. I am also guessing this is how eye site can be affected, to much calcium in the eye soft tissue. Vitamin A for good eye site!

Every web post I have seen over the years, where a person gets rid of their acne for good deals with calcium some how. I just never put it all together...
RetinA for skin - pure vitamin A lotion/cream directly on skin
Birth control - progestrogen/estrogen (calcium metabolism)
milk causing - too much calcium
Vit D - some people this makes acne go away, but most makes it worse
accutane - artificial pure vitamin A, but does the trick with nasty side effects
magnesium - balances calcium
mega doses of vitamin B5 - its a huge dose of calcium, so it impairs skin production of sebum, by overload of calcium? B vitamins assist adrenals?

I have tried low-calcium diet, but made things worse, since it doesn't make the body move calcium out

Vit A is a powerful antagonist to estrogen as well, important for dudes.

Anyway try it at higher doses, there are lots of pubmed studies about how safe it is for males in the 300K to 500K per day for several months. Your skin may purge like me for the first week/month.

Here is the math on safety, most people take 40mg to 60mg of accutane which is artificial pure retinoic acid (its a mirror image of real vitamin A). Its a large amount and people take it for usually 6 months.

100K IU of retinyl palmitate converts in your body to about 2.5mg real pure retinoic acid (ATRA). So taking (200K iU) - 5mg retinoic acid per day is pretty safe, as its real and the body can use it properly. Just watch how you feel, the major side effects are drying on the skin, inside nose/lips, maybe headaches. I have been fine so far.


Oh to add, watch vitamin D supp intake. D from the sun can be down regulated by the body (turned off), D in oral form is like using a nuclear bomb to move calcium into bone, skin, etc... it cannot be down regulated, and the body can't turn it off, so if you dont need it can reek havoc. I would say avoid it all together and get only sunlight.
"

 

[ilovethesea]

I've actually never done high doses of vitamin A like people on here do so I'm not sure if that helps or not with my skin problem?

What sensitivities do you get exactly from starches?

If I have starch I don't breathe through my nose as well (it gives me a tendency to mouth breathe), and often a runny nose. Worst case scenario a full blown allergy attack of sneezing, blocked sinuses, watery eyes etc.

 

[ilovethesea]

I agree with @ilovethesea sugar helps with keeping cortisol down and sebum, but vitamin A is the 'cure' for acne.

I have been on 200K IU to 500K IU for almost 3 months now. Finding that 500K IU is working better for me, I have no ill effects other then skin healing and skin improvements. I was gonna to wait another 3 months to post results, but so far only healing and no adverse affects. Staying closer to 500K IU has finally got my dandruff to start healing as well. Millions of flakes to much much less!


Here is a thread were I discuss some thoughts on Acne with another forum member:

"
Here is my take on acne, after years of reading blogs and experimenting, low-carb, etc... all the way to finding Peat. It has to do with calcium metabolism, simple story is that vitamin D moves calcium into the body (bones, skin, etc) and vitamin A moves it out. With vitamin K helping to direct calcium to bones and not soft tissue. I have no idea what the science is, but seems likely. Too much calcium in the soft tissue (skin), screws up shedding, sebum production, healing abilities. So I believe once this is balanced, you will be able to lower the amount of vit A required in the diet. I think aspirin will help with this as well.

I am not sure how the calcium metabolism messes up, but as teens I guess the vitamin A/D, magnesium/calcium, estrogen/progesterone ratios get screwed up, with maybe genetics and how things in there womb with your mother were...

I can not find any studies that support this, other then one that said (below), unsaturated oils on the skin, draw calcium into the cells, hence calcifying skin, and the skin not being healthy from this. So another good reason to avoid PUFAs. Just a theory, but I think its on the right track. I grew up on PUFAs and tons and tons of milk, acne started as a young teen for me. Never ate liver, vit A stores would have been zero.

Unsaturated fatty acids induce calcium influx into keratinocytes and cause abnormal differentiation of epidermis. - PubMed - NCBI

So basically too much calcium in the soft tissues, is not good, needs to be directed to the bones... I would assume either by diet or using crappy oils to moisturize. I am also guessing this is how eye site can be affected, to much calcium in the eye soft tissue. Vitamin A for good eye site!

Every web post I have seen over the years, where a person gets rid of their acne for good deals with calcium some how. I just never put it all together...
RetinA for skin - pure vitamin A lotion/cream directly on skin
Birth control - progestrogen/estrogen (calcium metabolism)
milk causing - too much calcium
Vit D - some people this makes acne go away, but most makes it worse
accutane - artificial pure vitamin A, but does the trick with nasty side effects
magnesium - balances calcium
mega doses of vitamin B5 - its a huge dose of calcium, so it impairs skin production of sebum, by overload of calcium? B vitamins assist adrenals?

I have tried low-calcium diet, but made things worse, since it doesn't make the body move calcium out

Vit A is a powerful antagonist to estrogen as well, important for dudes.

Anyway try it at higher doses, there are lots of pubmed studies about how safe it is for males in the 300K to 500K per day for several months. Your skin may purge like me for the first week/month.

Here is the math on safety, most people take 40mg to 60mg of accutane which is artificial pure retinoic acid (its a mirror image of real vitamin A). Its a large amount and people take it for usually 6 months.

100K IU of retinyl palmitate converts in your body to about 2.5mg real pure retinoic acid (ATRA). So taking (200K iU) - 5mg retinoic acid per day is pretty safe, as its real and the body can use it properly. Just watch how you feel, the major side effects are drying on the skin, inside nose/lips, maybe headaches. I have been fine so far.


Oh to add, watch vitamin D supp intake. D from the sun can be down regulated by the body (turned off), D in oral form is like using a nuclear bomb to move calcium into bone, skin, etc... it cannot be down regulated, and the body can't turn it off, so if you dont need it can reek havoc. I would say avoid it all together and get only sunlight.
"

Very interesting, never heard this before. I thought vitamin A was converting to progesterone and that's why it helps with acne.

 

[bohogirl]

A-mulsion: A-Mulsion - All Products - Products
Gives 10K IU retinyl palmitate per drop. Has some excipients, but seems to be ok with me.

I use Nutrisorb directly on the skin where breakouts occur as well. It is 2500IU per drop.

From what I have read and doing rough math, 100K IU retinyls equates to about ~2.5mg of retinoic acid (conversion in body). Accutane is a mirrored version (not real vitamin A), and safely used at 20mg to 80mg daily for months. That said there are studies posted in this forum showing the up to 500K IU retinyls for males is safe for months. Anyway getting 1mg to 5mg daily of real retinoic acid seems to be extremely helpful, RP is right on again. I will keep reporting back.

What kind of acne do you have? I don't have oily skin but I have large pores, blackheads, closed comedones, and cystic acne. Does the topical reduce the acne or just prevent it?

Do you have any reactions to butter, cheese, whole milk?

 

[Orion]

What kind of acne do you have? I don't have oily skin but I have large pores, blackheads, closed comedones, and cystic acne. Does the topical reduce the acne or just prevent it?

Do you have any reactions to butter, cheese, whole milk?

I have extremely oily skin, with pluged pores and whiteheads. I find topical palmitate not very effective but could be used, skin is able to convert to retinoic acid I have read, but not sure how affective it is when metabolism is sub-par.

Butter should be ok, be cheese and especially milk (combining calcium with vitaminD) are problematic for most. Vit D will drive calcium into the soft tissues, which I believe has lots to do with acne.

I am close to 4 months at 500K oral vit A, the change is skin appearance and texture is dramatic in a good way. My skin still gets very oily, but my pores are shrinking and no more whiteheads, back acne is not almost fully healed, I used to have very dry skin with extreme oiliness, now I only get oily in the T zone.

I will say this, I always thought that sebum was tied to acne, but even now with oily skin, I'm not breaking out as much. So sebum is a small part of it, I believe the root is too much calcium in the skin, which interferes with healing and normal skin function.

Unsaturated fatty acids induce calcium influx into keratinocytes and cause abnormal differentiation of epidermis. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[bohogirl]

I have extremely oily skin, with pluged pores and whiteheads. I find topical palmitate not very effective but could be used, skin is able to convert to retinoic acid I have read, but not sure how affective it is when metabolism is sub-par.

Butter should be ok, be cheese and especially milk (combining calcium with vitaminD) are problematic for most. Vit D will drive calcium into the soft tissues, which I believe has lots to do with acne.

I am close to 4 months at 500K oral vit A, the change is skin appearance and texture is dramatic in a good way. My skin still gets very oily, but my pores are shrinking and no more whiteheads, back acne is not almost fully healed, I used to have very dry skin with extreme oiliness, now I only get oily in the T zone.

I will say this, I always thought that sebum was tied to acne, but even now with oily skin, I'm not breaking out as much. So sebum is a small part of it, I believe the root is too much calcium in the skin, which interferes with healing and normal skin function.

Unsaturated fatty acids induce calcium influx into keratinocytes and cause abnormal differentiation of epidermis. - PubMed - NCBI

Hmm, I don't tolerate cheese, butter, or milk (maybe only whole milk) but I can drink low-fat kefir without a problem, pretty sure kefir has calcium in it. I still get closed comedones while on kefir, but I also still get them without kefir.

I think its more of a fat than a calcium issue for me.

 

[Pointless]

I have extremely oily skin, with pluged pores and whiteheads. I find topical palmitate not very effective but could be used, skin is able to convert to retinoic acid I have read, but not sure how affective it is when metabolism is sub-par.

Butter should be ok, be cheese and especially milk (combining calcium with vitaminD) are problematic for most. Vit D will drive calcium into the soft tissues, which I believe has lots to do with acne.

I am close to 4 months at 500K oral vit A, the change is skin appearance and texture is dramatic in a good way. My skin still gets very oily, but my pores are shrinking and no more whiteheads, back acne is not almost fully healed, I used to have very dry skin with extreme oiliness, now I only get oily in the T zone.

I will say this, I always thought that sebum was tied to acne, but even now with oily skin, I'm not breaking out as much. So sebum is a small part of it, I believe the root is too much calcium in the skin, which interferes with healing and normal skin function.

Unsaturated fatty acids induce calcium influx into keratinocytes and cause abnormal differentiation of epidermis. - PubMed - NCBI

I've always suspected that calcium might play a role in hair loss, too. How's your hairline?

 

[ilovethesea]

I have extremely oily skin, with pluged pores and whiteheads. I find topical palmitate not very effective but could be used, skin is able to convert to retinoic acid I have read, but not sure how affective it is when metabolism is sub-par.

Butter should be ok, be cheese and especially milk (combining calcium with vitaminD) are problematic for most. Vit D will drive calcium into the soft tissues, which I believe has lots to do with acne.

I am close to 4 months at 500K oral vit A, the change is skin appearance and texture is dramatic in a good way. My skin still gets very oily, but my pores are shrinking and no more whiteheads, back acne is not almost fully healed, I used to have very dry skin with extreme oiliness, now I only get oily in the T zone.

I will say this, I always thought that sebum was tied to acne, but even now with oily skin, I'm not breaking out as much. So sebum is a small part of it, I believe the root is too much calcium in the skin, which interferes with healing and normal skin function.

Unsaturated fatty acids induce calcium influx into keratinocytes and cause abnormal differentiation of epidermis. - PubMed - NCBI

I am still getting good results from higher oral doses of A as well (100k most days). For me it does decrease oil production. I don't get acne too often on the Ray Peat diet (premenstrual breakouts were always my problem ) but with vitamin A my skin is just better - softer, less oily in the luteal phase, fewer acne, even my hair doesn't need washing.

I find the effects are very similar to high dose progesterone or pregnenolone. I guess it's all the same pathway.

For me the condition of my skin seems more tied to my cycle and when I have high estrogen. I've never had issues with dairy, except for a coated tongue if I have a lot. I try to do charcoal, carrot, cascara if I notice that. Benadryl and cyproheptadine make it go away too.

 

[LittleMissy]

I agree with @ilovethesea sugar helps with keeping cortisol down and sebum, but vitamin A is the 'cure' for acne.

I have been on 200K IU to 500K IU for almost 3 months now. Finding that 500K IU is working better for me, I have no ill effects other then skin healing and skin improvements. I was gonna to wait another 3 months to post results, but so far only healing and no adverse affects. Staying closer to 500K IU has finally got my dandruff to start healing as well. Millions of flakes to much much less!


Here is a thread were I discuss some thoughts on Acne with another forum member:

"
Here is my take on acne, after years of reading blogs and experimenting, low-carb, etc... all the way to finding Peat. It has to do with calcium metabolism, simple story is that vitamin D moves calcium into the body (bones, skin, etc) and vitamin A moves it out. With vitamin K helping to direct calcium to bones and not soft tissue. I have no idea what the science is, but seems likely. Too much calcium in the soft tissue (skin), screws up shedding, sebum production, healing abilities. So I believe once this is balanced, you will be able to lower the amount of vit A required in the diet. I think aspirin will help with this as well.

I am not sure how the calcium metabolism messes up, but as teens I guess the vitamin A/D, magnesium/calcium, estrogen/progesterone ratios get screwed up, with maybe genetics and how things in there womb with your mother were...

I can not find any studies that support this, other then one that said (below), unsaturated oils on the skin, draw calcium into the cells, hence calcifying skin, and the skin not being healthy from this. So another good reason to avoid PUFAs. Just a theory, but I think its on the right track. I grew up on PUFAs and tons and tons of milk, acne started as a young teen for me. Never ate liver, vit A stores would have been zero.

Unsaturated fatty acids induce calcium influx into keratinocytes and cause abnormal differentiation of epidermis. - PubMed - NCBI

So basically too much calcium in the soft tissues, is not good, needs to be directed to the bones... I would assume either by diet or using crappy oils to moisturize. I am also guessing this is how eye site can be affected, to much calcium in the eye soft tissue. Vitamin A for good eye site!

Every web post I have seen over the years, where a person gets rid of their acne for good deals with calcium some how. I just never put it all together...
RetinA for skin - pure vitamin A lotion/cream directly on skin
Birth control - progestrogen/estrogen (calcium metabolism)
milk causing - too much calcium
Vit D - some people this makes acne go away, but most makes it worse
accutane - artificial pure vitamin A, but does the trick with nasty side effects
magnesium - balances calcium
mega doses of vitamin B5 - its a huge dose of calcium, so it impairs skin production of sebum, by overload of calcium? B vitamins assist adrenals?

I have tried low-calcium diet, but made things worse, since it doesn't make the body move calcium out

Vit A is a powerful antagonist to estrogen as well, important for dudes.

Anyway try it at higher doses, there are lots of pubmed studies about how safe it is for males in the 300K to 500K per day for several months. Your skin may purge like me for the first week/month.

Here is the math on safety, most people take 40mg to 60mg of accutane which is artificial pure retinoic acid (its a mirror image of real vitamin A). Its a large amount and people take it for usually 6 months.

100K IU of retinyl palmitate converts in your body to about 2.5mg real pure retinoic acid (ATRA). So taking (200K iU) - 5mg retinoic acid per day is pretty safe, as its real and the body can use it properly. Just watch how you feel, the major side effects are drying on the skin, inside nose/lips, maybe headaches. I have been fine so far.


Oh to add, watch vitamin D supp intake. D from the sun can be down regulated by the body (turned off), D in oral form is like using a nuclear bomb to move calcium into bone, skin, etc... it cannot be down regulated, and the body can't turn it off, so if you dont need it can reek havoc. I would say avoid it all together and get only sunlight.
"

@Orion , so would you say that along with vitamin a supplementation for acne, vitamin k2 is just as important (in smaller doses) do you take a supp? If so which one, and is there a set dosage or more of an experimental range?

 

[Orion]

@Orion , so would you say that along with vitamin a supplementation for acne, vitamin k2 is just as important (in smaller doses) do you take a supp? If so which one, and is there a set dosage or more of an experimental range?

I have tried Thorne K2 and HealthNatura. I think around 1mg per day is a good start to experiment with.

HealthNatura also has 20mg/drop K2, studies show that this may be a good dose for moving calcium where it is supposed to go, out of arteries, etc and into bone.

 

[EIRE24]

I have tried Thorne K2 and HealthNatura. I think around 1mg per day is a good start to experiment with.

HealthNatura also has 20mg/drop K2, studies show that this may be a good dose for moving calcium where it is supposed to go, out of arteries, etc and into bone.

Are you still taking that high dose of vitamin A?

What happened when you say you purged? Did your acne get worse for a while?

 

[Orion]

Are you still taking that high dose of vitamin A?

What happened when you say you purged? Did your acne get worse for a while?

5 months now at over 300K per day, acne is still healing, looks like it will take about 6 months to 12 months to fully heal (similar to accutane). I am also doing low calcium and zero oral vitD, I try to get full body sun exposure for 30-60mins per day. Purging seemed to occur for the first few months. I still think that acne is related to calcium metabolism and calcium needs to be shifted away from soft tissues to bone.

I believe the vitK2 is essentially for this as well.

 

[nerfherder]

acne is still healing, looks like it will take about 6 months to 12 months to fully heal

I just wanted to say thanks to you and all the other posters here for keeping us informed. I usually read a lot but don't say anything and there are probably a lot of others like me. In my case one of my children has trouble with acne at a young age and I took advantage of a recent trip to keep the diet really low PUFA and sure enough her skin gets way better over a couple of weeks and any PUFA (like, say, sausages) causes a small flare-up.

Unsaturated fatty acids induce calcium influx into keratinocytes and cause abnormal differentiation of epidermis. - PubMed - NCBI

These links are great. On behalf of us lurkers, thanks.

 

[Orion]

I took advantage of a recent trip to keep the diet really low PUFA and sure enough her skin gets way better over a couple of weeks and any PUFA (like, say, sausages) causes a small flare-up.

This seems to be the last step that has increased my skin healing beyond anything I have ever seen. I have completed two weeks of a PUFA purge/cleanse; zero fat, high calories with 120-130grams protein, will probably stick with at least one to two months. This goes along with RP comments on PUFA blocking vitamin A at the cellular level. Well PUFA blocks just about everything, so getting it out of the body is really good.

 

[ilovethesea]

This seems to be the last step that has increased my skin healing beyond anything I have ever seen. I have completed two weeks of a PUFA purge/cleanse; zero fat, high calories with 120-130grams protein, will probably stick with at least one to two months. This goes along with RP comments on PUFA blocking vitamin A at the cellular level. Well PUFA blocks just about everything, so getting it out of the body is really good.

What was your typical day's diet on this PUFA cleanse?

That is something I haven't experimented with yet. (Although I don't have any acne issues at the moment - vitamin A drops still working well and I am doing a low dose penicillin which makes skin perfect, no pores at all.)

Anyway, I wonder if clearing PUFAs would reduce how much vitamin A I need? Have you reduced dose at all?

I think I must still have PUFA stores (cellulite) even though I've been eating low PUFA for almost 4 years now.