Acetaldehyde As A Cause For Chronic Migraines In Candida Patients

[burtlancast]

you can't disconsider that it can go bad as well. There are reports on forums such as Curezone from people noticing the same symptoms they get from yeasts, flaring up after supplementation, the reaction made them search for a connection, not the opposite.

We already got over that; the only post on curezone stating magnesium triggered candida symptoms was the one research article published by Eby and cited (with cautions!) by Narouz.
Further down that curezone discussion, there's even a post responding to the Eby article and stating the exact opposite.

"I haven't found any evidence magnesium feed candida. Instead, people with CRC are very low in magnesium and need this supplement.
Jorge."
Magnesium Feeds candida. at Candida & Dysbiosis Forum, topic 1884809

 

[Amazoniac]

We already got over that; the only post on curezone stating magnesium triggered candida symptoms was the one research article published by Eby and cited (with cautions!) by Narouz.
Further down that curezone discussion, there's even a post responding to the Eby article and stating the exact opposite.

"I haven't found any evidence magnesium feed candida. Instead, people with CRC are very low in magnesium and need this supplement.
Jorge."
Magnesium Feeds candida. at Candida & Dysbiosis Forum, topic 1884809

As I mentioned, what prompted their search was the negative effects from supplementation, they searched for a connection later.

Why do you think that there can't be adverse effects from something that is part of their metabolism? They can withstand very harsh insults from something that's completely toxic to them. Especially because the state of the person is probably already weakened to allow their overgrowth.
If it was indeed a cure, this should be the simple and successful route since it's used for a long time as you stated. When you search for "magnesium yeast" what actually appears right away are the possible negative interactions and the fact that it's a common deficiency, but read the previous post again.

And read this as well, disconsider the experiment part and focus instead on how general yeast metabolism works:
http://www.aulibrary.au.edu/multim1/ABAC_Pub/Au-Journal-of-Technology/v3-n3-3.pdf

 

[burtlancast]

We're running in cercles here.

Test tubes aren't living conditions; petri dishes only contain microrganisms; there's no immune cells in petri dishes.

Magnesium enhances the replication of polio virus in petri dishes; in a human being infected by polio, magnesium supplementation cures the infection in 100% of the cases.

No scientific article stating magnesium feeds candida or yeasts IN VITRO makes the inference to living conditions.

No magnesium supplementation ever triggered clinical candida overgrowth. In 60 years of supplementation with millions of people.

And it's not the trolls on curezone or the deep pockets of Mr Eby who will change any of that.

 

[Amazoniac]

We're running in cercles here.

Test tubes aren't living conditions; petri dishes only contain microrganisms; there's no immune cells in petri dishes.

Magnesium enhances the replication of polio virus in petri dishes; in a human being infected by polio, magnesium supplementation cures the infection in 100% of the cases.

No scientific article stating magnesium feeds candida or yeasts makes the inference to living conditions.

No magnesium supplementation ever triggered clinical candida overgrowth. In 60 years of supplementation with millions of people.

And it's not the trolls on curezone or the deep pockets of Mr Eby who will change any of that.

Each one of those points were already addressed on the other thread, not sure why you're bringing them up again))

Since you need formal proof that magnesium supplementation is not a cure and considering that no one here will be injecting themselves with it, here it is:
The treatment of chronic fatigue syndrome by complementary medicine - ScienceDirect
"one exception is magnesium, which has been demonstrated to be the single most effective treatment for CFS. It was demonstrated that CFS sufferers are significantly deficient in magnesium (shown by red cell magnesium levels) compared to healthy controls, and that parenteral administration of magnesium was significantly helpful in 80% of patients.15 At present it is unclear whether magnesium deficiency is part of the cause of the condition or a result. However, as oral magnesium is relatively ineffective, it would appear that reduced absorption and/or increased excretion is probably the cause. Patients with yeast overgrowth appear to be particularly susceptible to magnesium deficiency, possibly because the yeasts themselves extract magnesium from the diet or interfere more directly with absorption."

If the body is being unable to control the infection as is, and a lot of people just can't handle supplemental magnesium well judging by reactions, and as stated on the passage being ineffective for repletion purposes, why can't there be a negative outcome from supplementation in this case? Unabsorbed nutrients are food for microbes.

 

[burtlancast]

Magnesium is needed to detox the products of yeast metabolism, acetaldehyde essentially; that's why its deficient.

Candida also prevents you from absorbing nutrients, magnesium being one of them.

But there's no evidence of magnesium supplementation worsening an already existing candida overgrowth or triggering it.

You keep coming out empty handed even though you don't realize it.

 

[Amazoniac]

Magnesium is needed to detox the products of yeast metabolism, acetaldehyde essentially; that's why its deficient.

Candida also prevents you from absorbing nutrients, magnesium being one of them.

But there's no evidence of magnesium supplementation worsening an already existing candida overgrowth or triggering it.

You keep coming out empty handed even though you don't realize it.

Explain to me then why parenteral is effective and oral is not.

 

[Amazoniac]

Also explain me what's the meaning of something that isn't nourishing you well while feeding your germs.

 

[burtlancast]

I believe oral magnesium chloride is effective in an overwhelming number of cases.

 

[Amazoniac]

I believe oral magnesium chloride is effective in an overwhelming number of cases.

And I believe that you will reply one day to one of my PMs.
I think that there's truth to it but we can't generalize, that's my point. If you ever find such cases, please share. It's good to know that it's an effective tool indeed for some, no sarcasm, burtlan!

 

[opiath]

Hey guys, let me give you my take on this.
I've been dealing with candida overgrowth for 2 years.
Coated white tongue and digestion ****88 up beyond what you can imagine.
Antifungals like Nystatin make my liver literally stop (jaundice, gallbladder attacks and intestinal inflammation).

I think you can both agree Candida is an energy deficiency problem.
Antibiotics may very well start it but insufficient energy for the repair of the digestive system sustains the overgrowth.

While magnesium doesn't directly feed it, I can attest it can make the condition much much worse.
You see, one of the things magnesium does when it goes inside the body is that it decreases adrenaline sensitivity.
This may sound like a good thing but unless you have a severe Mg deficiency I can assure you, it is not.
Adrenaline is usually always there for a reason.
If you have a disrupted aerobic metabolism like I do, adrenaline is very much needed to maintain energy production.
So when you put magnesium inside, you downregulate adrenaline sensitivity and then you actually need MORE adrenaline to do the same job.
This is why you see everywhere that stress depletes magnesium. Body is getting rid of it fast in order to increase sensitivity.
It wants to have the minimum amount of adrenaline and MAX sensitivity.
Why? Because adrenaline upkeep is expensive and destructive.
High adrenaline floods your blood with free fatty acids which you very well know.
Also more MAO and COMT are going to be needed to break down that adrenaline.
MAO and COMT break it to aldehyde which is thing you are trying to get rid of.
Salt works because it increases adrenaline sensitivity and helps you retain magnesium without this negative effect.

I've supplemented tons of magnesium over the past 2 years and I now think it was a big mistake.
I know healthy people don't believe sick people but this is my personal observation and conclusion.

 

[Mito]

I've supplemented tons of magnesium over the past 2 years and I now think it was a big mistake.

Did you ever test magnesium levels?

You see, one of the things magnesium does when it goes inside the body is that it decreases adrenaline sensitivity.

Do you have happen to have any studies on this?

 

[Amazoniac]

"auto-brewery syndrome"

 

[opiath]

Do you have happen to have any studies on this?

Opposing actions of calcium and magnesium ions on the metabolic effects of epinephrine in rat heart - ScienceDirect
Magnesium inhibits the hypertensive but not the cardiotonic actions of low-dose epinephrine — Experts@Minnesota
Effect of intravenous epinephrine on serum magnesium and free intracellular red blood cell magnesium concentrations measured by nuclear magnetic re... - PubMed - NCBI
Effects of magnesium on contractile responses induced by electrical transmural stimulation and noradrenaline in rabbit thoracic aorta
Beta-adrenergic desensitization reduces the sensitivity of adenylate cyclase for magnesium in permeabilized lymphocytes. - PubMed - NCBI

Make of those what you will.
I'm not trying to convince anyone here.
I'm just sharing my n=1.
I know @gbolduev mentioned this also.
Soaking in epsom salts or taking magnesium makes me feel really good and sedated for 1-2 hours and then my heart starts beating
harder and my feet get colder.
I know this because I'm really sensitive to those two symptoms.

Also Ray Peat himself says that good thyroid function is needed to retain magnesium.
And when does thyroid go up? When the need for adrenaline goes down.

 

[burtlancast]

when you put magnesium inside, you downregulate adrenaline sensitivity and then you actually need MORE adrenaline to do the same job.

None of the papers you cited discuss an increased adrenaline secretion following magnesium supplementation.

They merely analyze the antagonistic effects of adrenaline and other various cations to magnesium.

Magnesium and adrenaline have antagonistic effects of the neuro-muscular junction, and other energy processes. That's been known for 80 years.

You must have mistaken the articles.


just sharing my n=1.

 

[burtlancast]

Since magnesium lowers zinc.

That's simply not true.
It's the other way around.

 

[opiath]

None of the papers you cited discuss an increased adrenaline secretion following magnesium supplementation.

You are correct. I cannot bring up a study that shows increased adrenaline levels.

But I do wonder what a study would show that measures the adrenaline after Mg heavy dose in a person that is reliant on that adrenaline.
I agree it is very hypothetical but I'm going by my bro science and my instincts on this one.

 

[Makrosky]

You are correct. I cannot bring up a study that shows increased adrenaline levels.

But I do wonder what a study would show that measures the adrenaline after Mg heavy dose in a person that is reliant on that adrenaline.
I agree it is very hypothetical but I'm going by my bro science and my instincts on this one.

Good you mention is bro science and your intuition. Helps put things in perspective. Thanks @burtlancast

 

[Amazoniac]

Magnesium and panic attacks:
Restoring Levels Of Magnesium

 

[tara]

The case of migraines in Candida patients is very specific and cannot be used to generalize to all migraine patients.

I have no doubt that serotonin is a significant player in migraine.
If serotonin is elevated there will be reasons for that. Understanding more about the presumably multifactorial causes and seeing if any of them are practically avoidable would be nice. I'm not completely opposed to using drugs - I've used quite a lot over the years, including some anti-serotonin ones. There seem to always be downsides to long term or frequent drug use.

Peat has also mentioned that typically migraines occur on a background of high estrogen, histamine and serotonin.
They are all hormones that rise to deal with stresses of various kinds.
Struggling liver and high stress levels also seem to be common factors.

Candida may be a special case, but acetaldehyde is not just an issue with candida, right? Acetaldehyde can arise from fermentation of sugars by other microbes too, right? And acetaldehyde, and difficulties with eliminating it, is a stressful burden on the the system, right?

Do you have reason to think that serotonin, for instance, is completely independent of acetaldehyde?

Resolving those would be nice.

 

[Travis]

Pretty dense thread here. This is interesting: #13

"In addition to the effects of the high NADH/NAD ratio, Lieber lists the following toxic effects of acetaldehyde:
1. Reduction in the number of microtubules in the liver.

And the most essential for microtubule formation is probably guanidine triphosphate (GTP). This interacts with tubulin directly and is essential to the polymerization process.

5. Depression of glutathione in the liver, possibly [?] as a result of the binding of acetaldehyde to its cysteine component.

Almost certainly. Methylglyoxal is another aldehyde which binds to gluathione forming S-linked adduct. It then goes on to enzyme glyoxylase I, where it is dehydrogenated and hydroxylated to S-lactoyl glutathione. This is now lactic acid S-linked to glutathione and a second enzyme glyoxylase II then splits this apart regenerating glutathione.

Analogues of the intermediate, S-lactoyl glutathione, can be designed to be powerful inhibitors of the enzyme glyoxylase I – effectively inhibiting methylglyoxal degradation and increasing intracellular levels. This inhibits cancer. Small natural glyoxylase-inhibitors—like lapachol, lapachone, and some flavanoids—strongly inhibit cancer. This is often explained by either free radical mechanisms or DNA/topisomerase interactions, which I doubt. I think it's cancerostatic effect is achieved by raising methylglyoxal.

I pretty sure that the glyoxylase system turns all S-linked aldehydes into their corresponding carboxylic acids.

8. Increased collagen deposition in the liver (detectable only chemically in its early stages, but later by light microscopy). This is thought to be due in part to the increased lactate associated with the high NADH/NAD ratio. This leads to an increase in peptidyl proline hydroxylase activity, favoring collagen deposition in other tissues as well as in the liver."

Ray Peat has written an article on collagen formation and cancer, which is often associated with high lactate concentrations – but I don't remember him mentioning this mechanism.

*Douglas, Kenneth T., et al. "Partial transition-state inhibitors of glyoxalase I from human erythrocytes, yeast and rat liver." Biochimica et Biophysica Acta (BBA)-Protein Structure and Molecular Enzymology (1985)
†The Cancer Matrix ―Ray Peat
‡If anyone looks into lapachol, you will be confronted with scaremongering. Look at the real toxicological data, realize that it has a lower LD₅₀ than aspirin, and then disregard this pathetic NCI scaremongering and ponder why they habitually create unscientific fear over safe, cheap, natural, and effective drugs such as lapachol and laetrile.