Above All, Reduce Iron

[Prota]

Vitamin C and Iron Absorption – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Apparently vitamin c doesn't make a big change in iron absorption from animal sources.

Thanks!
Do you think that red meat/beef liver and oranges are good combo?

 

[paymanz]

Thanks!
Do you think that red meat/beef liver and oranges are good combo?

I'm not sure,I think ray doesn't reccommend that.

I need to read more about this myself,maybe there is some fraction of non heme iron that can become more absorbable with vitamin c .

 

[Prota]

I think you're right, non-heme fraction of iron (60% in muscle tissue) is problematic.

Thanks!

 

[Renaiscience_Man]

I have cilantro seeds. I was recommended to make tea with that to detox iron out of my body. However, cilantro seeds are very high in iron. I don't get it. Is it better to use the green fresh plant for heavy metal detox?

 

[pboy]

just curious I didnt read the whole thread, but I understand irons importance as being not something to overdo by any means, from the looks of it its a punch to the pancreas if you get into that situation, but it might still be important to although most people probably cover it. Is it even possible to overdose on non heme iron? considering the body has to purposefully absorb it...it isn't a passive thing. In the past as a vegan and even veg I ate tremendous amounts of iron...chlorella, spirulina, whole cane sugar, molasses, amongst other things...and don't recall ever having iron related issues...though maybe I did and didn't know but I'm pretty sure the stuff I overcame was other things (perhaps people with iron excess, theres regulation problems or ratio problems rather than just an excess intake, or potentially the heme can be overdone easier). Also...sometimes I read that iron cant be regulated, and therefore the body cant get rid of extra iron...this seems silly and one of potentially those things that might be common, but not really the whole picture. Theres a lot of deficiencies in mainstream culture and ways of living that might make some things seem as 'just how they work' but could be in fact due to these imbalances/deficiencies. I know vitamin C and other nutrients are related to iron metabolism...I wouldn't be surprised if many nutrients, thyroid, and overall NO status ...kind of the 'growing' in life, or the 'hibernation learned helplessness' thing. I'm pretty sure the body can store iron in the spleen, take it out of the blood, perhaps to slow the metabolism when theres efficiency issues due to the above mentioned and others. Also Ive read that iron is in saliva, and sweat...meaning it can be lost in ways not via giving blood or shedding cells as is commonly perported...and how is it that the body can actively transport it against a gradient into the system from the intestine, but not clear it back out the other direction? Some thoughts

 

[Amazoniac]

just curious I didnt read the whole thread, but I understand irons importance as being not something to overdo by any means, from the looks of it its a punch to the pancreas if you get into that situation, but it might still be important to although most people probably cover it. Is it even possible to overdose on non heme iron? considering the body has to purposefully absorb it...it isn't a passive thing. In the past as a vegan and even veg I ate tremendous amounts of iron...chlorella, spirulina, whole cane sugar, molasses, amongst other things...and don't recall ever having iron related issues...though maybe I did and didn't know but I'm pretty sure the stuff I overcame was other things (perhaps people with iron excess, theres regulation problems or ratio problems rather than just an excess intake, or potentially the heme can be overdone easier). Also...sometimes I read that iron cant be regulated, and therefore the body cant get rid of extra iron...this seems silly and one of potentially those things that might be common, but not really the whole picture. Theres a lot of deficiencies in mainstream culture and ways of living that might make some things seem as 'just how they work' but could be in fact due to these imbalances/deficiencies. I know vitamin C and other nutrients are related to iron metabolism...I wouldn't be surprised if many nutrients, thyroid, and overall NO status ...kind of the 'growing' in life, or the 'hibernation learned helplessness' thing. I'm pretty sure the body can store iron in the spleen, take it out of the blood, perhaps to slow the metabolism when theres efficiency issues due to the above mentioned and others. Also Ive read that iron is in saliva, and sweat...meaning it can be lost in ways not via giving blood or shedding cells as is commonly perported...and how is it that the body can actively transport it against a gradient into the system from the intestine, but not clear it back out the other direction? Some thoughts

..and gone for 6 more months.

 

[pboy]

lol, sometimes I enjoy, well I always enjoy conversing but its sometimes hard on the forum at this point for me! lot of valuable information here and its a big gap up from most things...I guess ive just been over it a lot! Still figuring out big picture myself so along the way...I don't wanna put out anything I'm not sure about, but I'm pretty sure I'm careful about that. Theres that fine line also of interfering with other peoples growth process and just dictating things...which I don't like doing, or rather find the balance in it. The question is, do you save the world (and people) or let their own being unfold and experience the journey? The best way to handle that is probably somewhere in between...not that save people or the world, but in terms of giving out advice. When I was more a noob it was much easier to mix it up because when you're learning at the same level as others its not really any interference to express what you're thinking and doing. Cause I could give an exact ratio and figure and plan of what people could do...but then their system wouldn't have all the pathways myelinated and senses tuned, and sense of 'pride or accomplishment' that comes with figuring out and overcoming obstacles, and their confidence in themselves wouldn't be the same...its a fine line but I do the best I can. And again I'm still searching myself! and appreciate info put up here as sometimes its still valuable, and in the past a lot of it has triggered at least some framework and or played a part in me researching things and experimenting

 

[Amazoniac]

lol, sometimes I enjoy, well I always enjoy conversing but its sometimes hard on the forum at this point for me! lot of valuable information here and its a big gap up from most things...I guess ive just been over it a lot! Still figuring out big picture myself so along the way...I don't wanna put out anything I'm not sure about, but I'm pretty sure I'm careful about that. Theres that fine line also of interfering with other peoples growth process and just dictating things...which I don't like doing, or rather find the balance in it. The question is, do you save the world (and people) or let their own being unfold and experience the journey? The best way to handle that is probably somewhere in between...not that save people or the world, but in terms of giving out advice. When I was more a noob it was much easier to mix it up because when you're learning at the same level as others its not really any interference to express what you're thinking and doing. Cause I could give an exact ratio and figure and plan of what people could do...but then their system wouldn't have all the pathways myelinated and senses tuned, and sense of 'pride or accomplishment' that comes with figuring out and overcoming obstacles, and their confidence in themselves wouldn't be the same...its a fine line but I do the best I can. And again I'm still searching myself! and appreciate info put up here as sometimes its still valuable, and in the past a lot of it has triggered at least some framework and or played a part in me researching things and experimenting

Judging by your standards, you'll probably never feel ready enough. We all have to accept your disappearances, however it affects the whole forum. Members like haidut, Mittir, gbolduev and many others start to mentally hibernate as soon as you leave, otherwise how are they supposed to learn? It's like preparing for a shortage of knowledge.

 

[JCastro]

If you have pale inner eyelids, the answer is not to take iron but instead riboflavin, dairy, and fruit?

Are pale inner eyelids bad?

 

[paymanz]

I guess its not that simple,it can be pale or red for various reasons..

 

[Emstar1892]

Hey, anyone fancy explaining the reaction I'm currently having to an iron supplement?

All my iron values are normal (mid ref range) except ferretin which is 21. During *that* time of the month I'm incredibly weak, I have irregular heartbeats and shed hairs. I'm also hypothyroid (TSH 2.89, FT3 3.0, FT4 11.9).

Yesterday I decided to see how Id feel with just one iron supplement - I took Terra Nova Easy Iron, which is 20mg of bisglycinate. Around an hour later, and since then, I've had excruciating stomach cramps, radiating migraines, unbelievable joint and back pains, complete lack of appetite, and I can't get out of bed because I keep losing consciousness. Wtf?! I can't wait for this to wear off.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Hey, anyone fancy explaining the reaction I'm currently having to an iron supplement?

All my iron values are normal (mid ref range) except ferretin which is 21. During *that* time of the month I'm incredibly weak, I have irregular heartbeats and shed hairs. I'm also hypothyroid (TSH 2.89, FT3 3.0, FT4 11.9).

Yesterday I decided to see how Id feel with just one iron supplement - I took Terra Nova Easy Iron, which is 20mg of bisglycinate. Around an hour later, and since then, I've had excruciating stomach cramps, radiating migraines, unbelievable joint and back pains, complete lack of appetite, and I can't get out of bed because I keep losing consciousness. Wtf?! I can't wait for this to wear off.

Iron supplements are notorious for causing all sorts of digestive issues, so the stomach cramps and lack of appetite are very common reactions. I have heard that bisglycinate is supposed to be a "gentler" form of iron, and testimonials on Amazon seem to back this up, but it sounds like it isn't gentler for you. The other reactions are certainly more concerning. Iron is wickedly good at promoting bacterial growth, so if you were fighting an infection or a cold, maybe the supplement was enough to help the pathogen.

I'd also wonder about a manufacturing error. As few as 10 standard iron pills can be fatal for infants if swallowed. If the pills you got contained significantly more iron (say, 100-200mg instead of 20), that amount might trigger some of the more serious symptoms.

I'm guessing you think your monthly weakness is due to a temporary anemia (which is certainly plausible). I would look into the B vitamins, especially B12, Folate, and B6. The B vitamins always seem to be overlooked in anemia, and it's a shame, cause they can often resolve the problem without additional iron. Personally, I found Life Extension's Two Per Day (which is an iron free multi) to work excellently to boost hemoglobin while getting de-ironed through Phlebotomy. I had my highest hemoglobin reading ever (15.6) just a week before I had my lowest Ferritin reading ever (18). If you are still looking to supplement iron, I think dessicated liver is the way to go. Much safer form, much less likely to cause digestive side effects, and it naturally contains some of the co-factors to make hemoglobin.

 

[tankasnowgod]

just curious I didnt read the whole thread, but I understand irons importance as being not something to overdo by any means, from the looks of it its a punch to the pancreas if you get into that situation, but it might still be important to although most people probably cover it. Is it even possible to overdose on non heme iron? considering the body has to purposefully absorb it...it isn't a passive thing. In the past as a vegan and even veg I ate tremendous amounts of iron...chlorella, spirulina, whole cane sugar, molasses, amongst other things...and don't recall ever having iron related issues...though maybe I did and didn't know but I'm pretty sure the stuff I overcame was other things (perhaps people with iron excess, theres regulation problems or ratio problems rather than just an excess intake, or potentially the heme can be overdone easier). Also...sometimes I read that iron cant be regulated, and therefore the body cant get rid of extra iron...this seems silly and one of potentially those things that might be common, but not really the whole picture. Theres a lot of deficiencies in mainstream culture and ways of living that might make some things seem as 'just how they work' but could be in fact due to these imbalances/deficiencies. I know vitamin C and other nutrients are related to iron metabolism...I wouldn't be surprised if many nutrients, thyroid, and overall NO status ...kind of the 'growing' in life, or the 'hibernation learned helplessness' thing. I'm pretty sure the body can store iron in the spleen, take it out of the blood, perhaps to slow the metabolism when theres efficiency issues due to the above mentioned and others. Also Ive read that iron is in saliva, and sweat...meaning it can be lost in ways not via giving blood or shedding cells as is commonly perported...and how is it that the body can actively transport it against a gradient into the system from the intestine, but not clear it back out the other direction? Some thoughts

It is possible to overdose on non-heme iron, but this usually only happens from supplements. Again, 10-15 iron tablets can be enough to kill a small child, and it is one of the most common accidental poisonings.

The reason iron tends to accumulate is that it wasn't really a problem until about 50-100 years ago. Until that time, intestinal parasites that fed on host blood were practically ubiquitous (they still are in developing countries). There was also a lot more movement in general, so more opportunity to lose iron through sweat and accidental blood loss. Bloodletting was also the go-to medical technique the world over for thousands of years, until the late 19th century. Also, thanks to supplementation and fortification in addition to red meat intake, the FDA estimates that iron intake is the highest it's been in the past 100 years (and likely ever), with the average American consuming 15-20mg more iron today than in 1909.

So, the super high iron intakes (on average) along with the loss of many natural regulators (parasites and such) combined with a super sedentary lifestyle have led to this accumulation problem.

 

[Emstar1892]

Iron supplements are notorious for causing all sorts of digestive issues, so the stomach cramps and lack of appetite are very common reactions. I have heard that bisglycinate is supposed to be a "gentler" form of iron, and testimonials on Amazon seem to back this up, but it sounds like it isn't gentler for you. The other reactions are certainly more concerning. Iron is wickedly good at promoting bacterial growth, so if you were fighting an infection or a cold, maybe the supplement was enough to help the pathogen.

I'd also wonder about a manufacturing error. As few as 10 standard iron pills can be fatal for infants if swallowed. If the pills you got contained significantly more iron (say, 100-200mg instead of 20), that amount might trigger some of the more serious symptoms.

I'm guessing you think your monthly weakness is due to a temporary anemia (which is certainly plausible). I would look into the B vitamins, especially B12, Folate, and B6. The B vitamins always seem to be overlooked in anemia, and it's a shame, cause they can often resolve the problem without additional iron. Personally, I found Life Extension's Two Per Day (which is an iron free multi) to work excellently to boost hemoglobin while getting de-ironed through Phlebotomy. I had my highest hemoglobin reading ever (15.6) just a week before I had my lowest Ferritin reading ever (18). If you are still looking to supplement iron, I think dessicated liver is the way to go. Much safer form, much less likely to cause digestive side effects, and it naturally contains some of the co-factors to make hemoglobin.

Thanks man. Yeah, it certainly wasn't gentle!!! I just got the worst stomach cramp ever on the bus and had to stifle a groan! Luckily it seems to be wearing off slightly - I'm more awake (and up and about) and my headaches have subsided. I forgot to mention I also got muscle twitches in multiple places from it, which are still ongoing.

In terms of having an infection, I certainly think this is playing a huge role. But rather than a transient cold/flu I think it's much more of a chronic issue. My thyroid profile is very suspect in that regard. And Ive had b12 and folate tested, both of which returned high (out of range) results. Whatever it is, I reckon it's eating up my ferritin also.

Haven't had much luck trying to target whatever it is though! Sceptical of antibiotics incase I catalyse a worse issue in the future. But maybe that's a possible route?

 

[tankasnowgod]

Thanks man. Yeah, it certainly wasn't gentle!!! I just got the worst stomach cramp ever on the bus and had to stifle a groan! Luckily it seems to be wearing off slightly - I'm more awake (and up and about) and my headaches have subsided. I forgot to mention I also got muscle twitches in multiple places from it, which are still ongoing.

In terms of having an infection, I certainly think this is playing a huge role. But rather than a transient cold/flu I think it's much more of a chronic issue. My thyroid profile is very suspect in that regard. And Ive had b12 and folate tested, both of which returned high (out of range) results. Whatever it is, I reckon it's eating up my ferritin also.

Haven't had much luck trying to target whatever it is though! Sceptical of antibiotics incase I catalyse a worse issue in the future. But maybe that's a possible route?

I share your views on antibiotics. I know they can be powerful and useful, but I view them more as a last resort sort of thing (as an aside.... I've seen some suggestions that antibiotics along with an iron chelator like desferal can be a very effective treatment for cancer). Anitbiotics could certianly give you some similar GI issues. Although if this is longstanding chronic issue, they may be worth a try.

If you are battling an ongoing infection, then you should be very wary of any iron supplementation. You could try things like lactoferrin, activated charcoal, or increasing protein intake (to attempt to increase iron binding proteins).

At the same time, focusing on the thyroid might help you more than any sort of iron tweak.

Final note, while a ferritin value of 21 is technically low, it is a very common value for teens and pre-menopausal women. While anemia (even borderline anemia) sucks, low body iron stores are protective against things like heart disease and cancer. If you're eating a lot of dairy and eggs, you may even be able to boost your ferritin simply by replacing some of that dairy and egg protein with red meat, liver, oysters, or other shellfish. Dr. Fachinni showed that a diet focused on high diary and egg protein can very effectively lower ferritin levels.

 

[Emstar1892]

I share your views on antibiotics. I know they can be powerful and useful, but I view them more as a last resort sort of thing (as an aside.... I've seen some suggestions that antibiotics along with an iron chelator like desferal can be a very effective treatment for cancer). Anitbiotics could certianly give you some similar GI issues. Although if this is longstanding chronic issue, they may be worth a try.

If you are battling an ongoing infection, then you should be very wary of any iron supplementation. You could try things like lactoferrin, activated charcoal, or increasing protein intake (to attempt to increase iron binding proteins).

At the same time, focusing on the thyroid might help you more than any sort of iron tweak.

Final note, while a ferritin value of 21 is technically low, it is a very common value for teens and pre-menopausal women. While anemia (even borderline anemia) sucks, low body iron stores are protective against things like heart disease and cancer. If you're eating a lot of dairy and eggs, you may even be able to boost your ferritin simply by replacing some of that dairy and egg protein with red meat, liver, oysters, or other shellfish. Dr. Fachinni showed that a diet focused on high diary and egg protein can very effectively lower ferritin levels.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Yeah I never intended the iron supplementation to be a long-term implementation, rather I was just curious as to whether a high dose would have any immediate effects on the way I was feeling, so that hopefully I'd be able to differentiate my symptoms and between those that were probably iron related and those that probably weren't...unfortunately my 24 hour experience has put me off completely, and dampened any of the curiosity I had haha! Luckily I'm almost 100% now, it's just the isolated stomach cramps which are ongoing.

I actually do supplement lactoferrin. It's been around a month and a half now. I'm certainly much more resilient to colds/flus, or at least it seems that way. This time last year (in freezing england with a broken window) I was ill on a bi-weekly basis.

Keen to try charcoal but I wonder if it's appropriate for someone with a clearly delicate system?

And yes, I'm on 1/2 grain thyroid and 20mg progesterone daily. 4 days into thyroid and 1 month into progesterone. So far so good (as in, not bad ...

Interesting, I can't seem to find any data on dr fachinni unless he's a radiologist? But I'll look into that, my dream is to one day tolerate dairy!

 

[Emstar1892]

P.s. sorry to hijack the iron thread guys, back to the topic at hand!

 

[tankasnowgod]

Interesting, I can't seem to find any data on dr fachinni unless he's a radiologist? But I'll look into that, my dream is to one day tolerate dairy!

I think I misspelled his name. He wrote "The Iron Factor of Aging," and has conducted a few iron lowering studies. This is the dietary one I referenced earlier- http://www.healtheiron.com/Websites...oSlow_Progression_of_Diabetic_Nephropathy.pdf

 

[DaveFoster]

This is from a post by Danny Roddy-
"I think the copper/iron ratio is under hormonal-developmental control, and I have never seen an attempt to use ceruloplasmin to guide nutrition. Regular good light exposure is probably important for preventing the displacement of copper by iron.
Although, Dr. Peat did mention more recently that an iron saturation level below 25% was protective against cancer, which appears to jive with the limited amount of data I've seen on the subject."

I came across that study. Iron saturation above 50% is indicative of iron overload and the absolutely destructive horror that goes along with that. (hint. most major degenerative conditions)

 

[Amazoniac]

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/481497
"Addition of ascorbic acid to complex foods has been shown to increase iron absorption in Peruvian and Jamaican children,14,15 but there are more differences between apple and orange juices than ascorbic acid content."

"One could speculate, therefore, that other ingredients present in apple juice may have a beneficial effect on iron absorption and counteract the effect of lower ascorbic acid levels. The apple juice in our study contained approximately 400 mg of malic acid per 100 mL of juice, whereas the orange juice contained negligible amounts. Some studies have shown malic acid to have a beneficial effect on iron absorption in adults.21 Although the effect of malic acid on nonheme iron absorption in children has not been studied, it is possible that malic acid or some other component of the apple juice counteracted the effect of the differing ascorbic acid concentration. Alternatively, the higher levels of zinc and copper in the orange juice meal may have impaired iron absorption and negated any beneficial effect of ascorbic acid."

[21] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1753-4887.1997.tb06461.x/epdf

"Iron storage status is the most important determinant of the rate of nonheme iron absorption. However, factors present in the intestinal lumen exert a powerful influence over the body’s ability to extract iron from the luminal nonheme iron pool. Two physiological factors - gastric hydrochloric acid secretion and the retention and mixing of food in the stomach - are necessary for optimal absorption."

"The absorption of nonheme iron is maximal when a soluble iron salt is administered to an iron deficient individual in the fasting state."
"In comparison with the reference value, almost all meals significantly reduce the percentage of iron absorbed. However, several dietary factors may act as either enhancers or inhibitors of absorption from the common nonheme iron pool formed in the stomach and the upper small intestine."

Enhancers of Nonheme Iron Absorption
"Ascorbic Acid. When ascorbic acid is added to a vegetable meal, percentage absorption is increased in approximate proportion to the molar ratio of ascorbic acid to iron irrespective of whether the ascorbic acid is introduced as the purified compound or in the form of fruits with a high ascorbic acid content."
"The influence of ascorbic acid is most pronounced in inhibitory meals, and it is effective in meals that contain high levels of the two main inhibitors of nonheme iron absorption, phytates and polyphenols."

"Above a pH of 4 almost all the iron is precipitated from a solution of ferric chloride. However, if ascorbic acid is added to soluble ferric chloride in an acid solution, a complex of iron and ascorbic acid is formed that remains soluble over a wide pH range."

"Organic Acids. Although less well studied than ascorbic acid, several other organic acids appear to have comparable enhancing effects in single-meal studies."

"All the vegetables associated with good iron bioavailability contained appreciable amounts of one or more of the organic acids citric, malic, or ascorbic acids. The addition of citric, malic, or tartaric acids to a rice-based meal improved iron absorption two- to fourfold.21,22"

[21] https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/S000711458300046X
[22] https://www.cambridge.org/core/serv...B336370F6412B614861950/S0007114587000436a.pdf​

Inhibitors of Nonherne Iron Absorption
"Phytate. The reduced iron absorption from meals containing wheat bran led Widdowson and McCance37 to suspect that phytate is an important inhibitory factor. A large number of subsequent studies have demonstrated that phytate is indeed a major inhibitor in cereal foods such as wheat, oats, sorghum, unpolished rice, and beans."

"Polyphenols. Tea was found to be a powerful inhibitor of iron absorption by Disler and coworkers.45 Subsequent studies indicated that this is primarily the result of its tannin content.46 Polyphenols are present in other popular beverages and are common constituents of many vegetables including several cereals. They appear to be equal in importance to phytates as inhibitors of nonheme iron absorption. The extent of inhibition varies inversely with the condensed polyphenol content.21 As is the case for phytate, the maximal effect occurs at relatively low polyphenol concentrations (Figure 3)."

"Several legumes49,50 and members of the nut family reduce nonheme iron absorption.51" "On the other hand, fermented foods that are important elements in the diets of several Asian countries, such as silken tofu, sufu, tempeh, natto, and @Miso, render the iron more bioavailable.56"

"Calcium. The addition of calcium in the form of milk or an inorganic salt to a meal reduces percentage nonheme iron absorption in human beings."
"More recently Hallberg et al.60 demonstrated that doses of calcium chloride (between 40 mg and 600 mg calcium) caused a dose-related reduction (up to 300 mg calcium) in nonheme iron absorption from a meal of wheat rolls containing 10 mg native calcium and 3.8 mg iron. When the calcium was incorporated into the dough before baking, the inhibitory effect was greater and appeared to be correlated with an increase in the phytate content of the wheat rolls. The researchers postulated that calcium inhibited iron absorption by two mechanisms in their experiments. Calcium incorporated into the dough reduced phytate degradation during fermentation and baking. Calcium in the rolls at the time they were consumed reduced iron absorption directly. They also found a small reduction in heme iron absorption after the addition of 165 mg Ca as calcium chloride to a hamburger meal."​