Above All, Reduce Iron

[mt_dreams]

I thought about it when i switched from weekly liver to daily liver.
Unlike muscle meat, liver's iron is mostly non-heme iron.
Itt is about 86% non heme iron and 14% heme iron.

is this the case for all livers or just cow/ruminant livers? 75% of the time I choose chicken liver as my source due to its lower iron content, but if got a higher heme ratio, it would be nice to know. thanks.

 

[Mittir]

is this the case for all livers or just cow/ruminant livers? 75% of the time I choose chicken liver as my source due to its lower iron content, but if got a highTher heme ratio, it would be nice to know. thanks.

The study was done with beef liver ( calves) . I stick to beef liver.
RP himself measured vitamin K content of beef liver, there were couple of miligram per kg.

Chicken liver has more iron than cow's. Nutritiondata shows per 100 grams
9 mg for chicken liver
4.9 mg for cow
7.4 mg lamb liver
According to following study calves liver: 6 mg

Biol Trace Elem Res. 2009 Dec;132(1-3):103-11. doi: 10.1007/s12011-009-8400-3.
Total iron and heme iron content and their distribution in beef meat and viscera.
Valenzuela C1, de Romaña DL, Olivares M, Morales MS, Pizarro F.
Author information

Abstract
To determine the content of total iron (TFe) and heme iron (HeFe) in major cuts of meat and principal viscera of bovine origin. 55Fe (30 mCi) was injected into two 4-month-old calves. Triplicate samples of the 12 basic American cuts of meat and major viscera were obtained from each specimen. Samples were acid digested and their iron content was read by atomic absorption spectrophotometry. Duplicate samples of the basic cuts of meat and major viscera were analyzed to determine the concentration of 55Fe using a double isotopic technique. The mean and standard deviation of TFe for all cuts was 1.4 ± 0.3 mg/100 g of meat. The mean TFe for organs was (per mg/100 g): 0.9 ± 0.1 brain, 3.0 ± 0.05 kidney, 3.2 ± 0.04 heart, 5.7 ± 0.2 lung, 6.0 ± 0.1 liver, and 31.2 ± 0.4 spleen. HeFe was 64% of TFe in meat and 72.8% in spleen, 53.8% in lung, 35.7% in brain, 35.0% in kidney, 27.3% in heart, and only 13.6% in liver. Blood contained 85.5% of the radioisotope and only 1.4% was found in muscle and 1.6% was found in viscera. Results suggest that bovine cuts of meat have a low variation in TFe and that HeFe comprises more than 60% of TFe.


Total iron and heme iron content and their distribution in beef meat and viscera. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[mt_dreams]

The study was done with beef liver ( calves) . I stick to beef liver.
RP himself measured vitamin K content of beef liver, there were couple of miligram per kg.

Chicken liver has more iron than cow's. Nutritiondata shows per 100 grams

Yeah I made a mistake about iron in chicken liver. I remember now I made the switch to try and keep a more optimal copper to zinc ratio (as copper is low in chicken liver), but I may have to rethink this. thanks for the extra info

 

[tara]

I thought about it when i switched from weekly liver to daily liver.

Thanks for working out the maths on these.
That's making me think either way is probably ok, so it's probably reasonable to go with my tastes and convenience. I will try to have some calcium with the liver, but I've backed off the coffee. Usually I have it with a bit of potatoes or rice at the moment.

 

[Jayfish]

I agree that avoiding any non hemi iron is a really good idea as well as regularly giving blood. But I don't agree that people need to avoid hem iron at all. The digestive tract is rediculously efficient at regulating the amount of hemi iron it takes in. Meat should be a big part of everyone's diet for the best source of aminos as well as zinc and b vitamins.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Blood donation does not get iron out of the liver/spleen/etc ( where it is the problem ) and instead wastes valuable transporting proteins.

Do you have a source for this claim?

Most people here if they got tests do not have a ferritin over 200 in which case it would probably be good to donate blood but under 100 it is not a good idea and will make you feel incredibly bad. I tried long ago eating basically ZERO dietary iron, large amounts of iron binding substances, and giving blood it does not work out nicely and will make a lot of people worse. I would suspect many here have low blood iron due to infection and heavy metals.

Reactions to blood donation and de-ironing methods will vary from person to person. I personally donated blood several times when ferritin was under 100 (it was as low as 18 on one occasion after donating), and I never experienced any negative or typical anemia effects. In any iron lowering protocol, it's wise to monitor both objective signs like ferritin, TSAT, hemoglobin, as well as subjective markers like mood and energy. I believe most hemochromatosis patients are encouraged to keep a journal for this very reason.

EDIT: If your starting serum ferritin was under 100, why did you try such a radical three pronged approach to lower iron?

 

[tankasnowgod]

Wouldn't it be OK to just reduce iron content from foods in the diet to lower tissue levels on the long run?

Yep, there is merit in this approach. Dr. Facchini designed such a diet around low iron protein sources like chicken, eggs, and dairy, that was also rich in iron inhibiting compounds like polyphenols. If you check Figure 1C, you can see that ferritin dropped from about 320 to 30-50 in the low iron group. You can check out the study here- http://www.healtheiron.com/Websites...oSlow_Progression_of_Diabetic_Nephropathy.pdf

 

[Peater Piper]

Blood donation does not get iron out of the liver/spleen/etc ( where it is the problem ) and instead wastes valuable transporting proteins.

Does the body not mobilize the iron from those organs to create new hemoglobin after donating?

 

[shepherdgirl]

Could reduction of splenic iron compromise altitude training or Buteyko breathing, or would that only happen in the case of anemia? Do magnesium and caffeine also inhibit iron absorption?
from cronometer:
1 medium baked potato with skin: 1.9mg iron
without skin: 0.5mg

 

[Gl;itch.e]

We discard the skin around here shepherdgirl!

 

[michael94]

Does the body not mobilize the iron from those organs to create new hemoglobin after donating?

Iron bound in proteins does not cause problems for the most part an exception may be certain infections but I'm not well versed in those matters. Your iron is on the hemoglobin and ferritin for a reason the cells need oxygen thyroid needs iron to function properly lol. Most are lacking in oxygen which is why they feel so good spending some time in nature or a forest ( of course they avoid EMF and others things too ). The body also needs iron for catalse which is incredibly antioxidant.

Anyway my point is hepcedin and other iron binding things are good for the most part (teas/coffee in moderation ) and of course any reduced iron added to foods is toxic but bloodletting may or may not be helpful it's not as simple as you have excess iron so give some blood, although it would sure be nice. I suspect there is a mobilization issue with iron/copper in the liver ( copper in liver also increases oxidative stress ) the reasons I'm not sure but likely heavy metals/chemical toxins. You can't just have iron free floating in the blood that would kill you so fast from infection lol. Heavy metals/toxins disrupt ability to make the proper proteins.

 

[nullredvector]

IIRC one of the reasons Peat spoke well of donation is that the body then renews the blood supply, which he said is similar to transfusions from young organisms.

 

[Prota]

I thought about it when i switched from weekly liver to daily liver.
I usually eat 1 oz daily which has only 1.4 mg iron.
Unlike muscle meat, liver's iron is mostly non-heme iron.
Itt is about 86% non heme iron and 14% heme iron.
I eat liver as a snack separate from the meal with some
200-300 mg calcium supplement and some coffee with sugar.


There is a wide variance in absorption rate for both heme and
non-heme iron. Non-heme iron 2 to 20 % and heme iron
15 to 35. Even with maximum absorption of 20 and 35 %

Total iron absorbed should be
Non Heme 1.4x 0.86*.x .2 = 0.24 mg
Heme Iron =.1.4x.14x.35= .07 mg

That is total of .31 mg from 1 oz of liver at maximum absorption rate.

If coffee inhibits 50% of no-heme iron then
total absorption is .19 mg. Calcium should
lower some of the total absorption.
less than .19 mg iron from 1 oz of liver is quite small.

At the minimum absorption rate total iron absorption is only 0.05 mg
without any coffee or calcium.

I wondered if large amount of protein in a 4 oz liver
would increase the absorption rate much higher than
protein in 1 oz. Protein causes higher amount of hydrochloric
acid secretion which increases non-heme iron absorption.

I am worried about too much copper and bad
Cu-Zn ratio with daily liver approach.

 

[michael94]

well almost all liver you eat is from a diseased cow so of course it will have a ton of iron and copper in the liver just like diseased humans lol

 

[shepherdgirl]

@Gl;itch.e - ya, no kidding!! I used to make broth with potato skins - guess that's out now!

 

[Benjamin Button]

I am worried about too much copper and bad
Cu-Zn ratio with daily liver approach.

Why are people fearing copper now?

I thought it was an essential part of good metabolism and is a component of cytochrome c oxidase, so much so that I supplement it!!

In fact on a previous supplement protocol I was mega dosing copper chelates like an idiot (molybdenum and such) because some guy off the internet said copper is estrogenic and were overloaded by it cos of pipes.
Haidut and roddy talked about these protocols before and dismissed them.

What's worse is that I read later on here that your ability to make use of dietary copper later can be impaired permanently later because of these protocols.

 

[BastiFuntasty]

Yep, there is merit in this approach. Dr. Facchini designed such a diet around low iron protein sources like chicken, eggs, and dairy, that was also rich in iron inhibiting compounds like polyphenols. If you check Figure 1C, you can see that ferritin dropped from about 320 to 30-50 in the low iron group. You can check out the study here- http://www.healtheiron.com/Websites...oSlow_Progression_of_Diabetic_Nephropathy.pdf

Thank you very much, I 'll give it a read this evening

 

[Mittir]

I am worried about too much copper and bad
Cu-Zn ratio with daily liver approach.

I focus on total nutrients hitting targets.
1 oz of liver has 2.7 mg Copper and 1.1 mg Zinc
1 quart of milk has about 3.9 mg zinc and .1 mg copper.
Ratio of Copper : Zinc is 3.8: 4, very close to 1:1.

 

[mt_dreams]

I focus on total nutrients hitting targets.
1 oz of liver has 2.7 mg Copper and 1.1 mg Zinc
1 quart of milk has about 3.9 mg zinc and .1 mg copper.
Ratio of Copper : Zinc is 3.8: 4, very close to 1:1.

is 1:1 ideal?
for some reason, not sure if i heard this from peat or roddy, but I thought it was ideal to have a lot more zinc compared to copper, something like 5:1 or 7:1...maybe even higher?

I know for some ratio's aren't a big deal, but it seems impossible to get 7:1 zinc to copper eating 200-250g of beef liver a week. I would probably need 600g+ of oysters to get the ratio back in line.

how important is this ratio?

 

[Mittir]

is 1:1 ideal?
for some reason, not sure if i heard this from peat or roddy, but I thought it was ideal to have a lot more zinc compared to copper, something like 5:1 or 7:1...maybe even higher?

I know for some ratio's aren't a big deal, but it seems impossible to get 7:1 zinc to copper eating 200-250g of beef liver a week. I would probably need 600g+ of oysters to get the ratio back in line.

how important is this ratio?

I just wanted to show that adding milk improves the ratio.
RDA for zinc : copper = 11 mg: .9 mg = 12:1
Upper tolerable limit for copper 10 mg and zinc 40 mg.
Even with 4 mg of daily copper with 11 mg zinc ratio is Zinc:Copper=11:4= 2.75:1

I have not heard RP talk about Zinc copper ratio, but he talks a lot about
need for copper to replace iron. Another interesting thing he mentioned is
that unlike iron and other heavy metals copper is not accumulated.
In nutrition for women book RP recommended 20-30 mg of zinc and no
mention of copper amount. If we get 20-30 mg zinc then copper ratio
is not a problem. He has changed his recommendation a lot since
writing that book. It is a good idea for someone to ask RP about the ratio.

Add: High Zinc intake can inhibit copper absorption. Here is a quote
on safe ratio that does not affect copper absorption.

"When zinc-to-copper ratios of 2:1, 5:1, and 15:1 were fed to humans,
there were limited effects on copper absorption (August et al., 1989)."

Source: Copper - Dietary Reference Intakes for Vitamin A, Vitamin K, Arsenic, Boron, Chromium, Copper, Iodine, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Nickel, Silicon, Vanadium, and Zinc - NCBI Bookshelf