Low Toxin Studies "A pronounced copper deficiency syndrome could have resulted"

[mosaic01]

You're free to believe as you will.

You said that potassium blocks copper. Where did you get that belief from?

This to me indicates there's something not going well anymore in the copper/iron metabolism since cutting out vitamin A.

All of what you write indicates you have massive problems and are very sensitive to all kinds of stuff. Hardly a good way to judge copper requirements.

To me it indicates you have a problem with your intestine and gut flora. Likely from chronic toxicity. Copper is an antibiotic.

If you believe you have copper deficiency, did you at least measure blood copper, ceruloplasmin, hair copper?

Many people, like you are doing here, make way too many assumptions based on unfounded theories and ideas, without any objective data to support it. I also did that in the past.

I measured my copper values and hair copper, and both my blood values (percentage of unbound copper) and hair values indicated chronic copper overload. No need to guess.

I don't limit my copper (I still eat wheat, mushrooms, potatoes), but I probably get 20-30mg of zinc per day from beef.

Just like you, I took copper regularly and it helped greatly with controlling some gut issues. Well, it backfired greatly, led to a hair level of copper beyond the reference range, and I regret it. Taking copper is very dangerous.

 

[Hidden49]

That suggests a pharmaceutical effect of sorts. So you needed 0.1-0.4mg of copper via supplements, but ingesting something like cashews which gives you 2.2mg per 100g doesn't do anything.

You did not experience a nutritional effect. The body is perfectly capable of extracting some copper out of 100g of food.

Well to be honest I have eaten cashews and cashew nut butter in the past and I do feel the copper from eating them but I don't like how I have to eat a bunch of PUFA fat to get my copper needs. I am fine with other pufa foods like eggs or oats though.

And about the body being perfectly capable of extracting copper from food is an assumption, a lot of things can hinder copper metabolism such as fructose, glyphosate (chelates copper and makes it unusable), any pathogens/fungi that are stealing the copper from you, phytic acid, any xenoestrogens that make you retain copper, competing nutrients in the copper containing foods.

For example I eat oats daily which have plenty of copper, I eat fruit and veg that contain copper yet my HTMA last year showed I had low copper in the hair so they suggested copper to me and when I took it made a huge difference to how I was feeling and functioning before that.

It could be that when you are taking copper alone as a supplement, compared to in food where it is complexed with other minerals, that it is more accessible and usable for your body but when taking it in copper containing foods the other minerals in the food or some other factor make it not as so.

 

[Hidden49]

I read an article in the tabloids once that was quite interesting about a girl who worked at a tanning salon and was "addicted" to sunbeds. She used them so much that she wasn't able to tan anymore! IIRC it was put down to the body using up all her copper stores but who knows maybe Garrett's right and she burned off all her vitamin A stores, either way she still looked very healthy definitely not anemic. Is copper essential for the production of melanin? Can't find any references for this and sure the girl would've been on a standard diet with plenty copper anyways.

Yes when I took copper last year it made me tan, but before that if I just had zinc I wouldn't tan at all and would just be pale from being in the sun.

 

[Hidden49]

Potassium for me seems to be needed and helps with my copper metabolism so that the copper is useable, it definitely doesn't antagonise it imo.

 

[mosaic01]

Yeah, the absorption is likely different from foods vs. supplements.

Do I understand it correctly that you just took 0.4 mg once and that corrected the issue for your permanenty?

 

[charlie]

I've seen so many people on low Vit A that become deathly pale and it's because they are not metabolising iron correctly.

Where are all these people you have seen become deathly pale? I am not seeing this and am seeing quite the opposite. People become bright and full of life. Eyes shining like never before, they are literally coming to back to life after being in a toxic stupor.

 

[Dutchie]

You said that potassium blocks copper. Where did you get that belief from?



All of what you write indicates you have massive problems and are very sensitive to all kinds of stuff. Hardly a good way to judge copper requirements.

To me it indicates you have a problem with your intestine and gut flora. Likely from chronic toxicity. Copper is an antibiotic.

If you believe you have copper deficiency, did you at least measure blood copper, ceruloplasmin, hair copper?

Many people, like you are doing here, make way too many assumptions based on unfounded theories and ideas, without any objective data to support it. I also did that in the past.

I measured my copper values and hair copper, and both my blood values (percentage of unbound copper) and hair values indicated chronic copper overload. No need to guess.

I don't limit my copper (I still eat wheat, mushrooms, potatoes), but I probably get 20-30mg of zinc per day from beef.

Just like you, I took copper regularly and it helped greatly with controlling some gut issues. Well, it backfired greatly, led to a hair level of copper beyond the reference range, and I regret it. Taking copper is very dangerous.

I got it from an article I read,which mentioned copper antagonists.
That made me examine my symptoms and experiment with it n=1.


You're rigth, I suspect too there's some kind of dysbiosis going on for years in my stomach and probably the small intestine. (Possibly h.pylori)
I think it's filling me up with ethanol/alcohol.
However the 'objective data' (tests) you're such a fan of, didn't show anything.

You're making assumptions, bc I never said I have copper deficiency. I merely said that the mentioned antagonists threw off my copper metabolism and that by cutting out the goat dairy bc of vit.a, I hardly got in any dietary copper. (With the goat dairy I wasn't even that high in copper. I got in a little less than the recommended rdi).
I don't like supplementing it and try to keep it at the bare minimum, however since it's all about low toxins and detoxing nowadays here, not being able to have a bowel movement is disastrous (in regards to toxins...and feeling uncomfortable).

The most acute symptoms I experience from vit.A, which slowly deteriorated over the past couple of years, are similar to the ones in Auto Brewery Syndrome. Except in ABS people get 'drunk' bc of carbs fermenting in the gut, which isn't possible in my case.
I experience these 'drunken' symptoms (and in my upper digestive tract) from eating vit.A. (on top of some long term symptoms such as hair loss,blood shot eyes and teeth looking extra yellow in the morning).
There's hardly anything to be found on vit.A issues and digestive dysbiosis .....that to me is the blind spot in this supposed vit.A movement.

 

[charlie]

There's hardly anything to be found on vit.A issues and digestive dysbiosis .....that to me is the blind spot in this supposed vit.A movement.

You have not been looking very hard because this is been talked about quite a bit. Toxic bile theory explains this easily.

 

[Deadpool]

Being a bit higher in zinc does not mean much when the ratio of copper to zinc is still below 1:2.



Without actual lab tests, you can't know you experienced copper antagonism, all you know is that you reacted negatively to potassium.

Can you point me to any information or studies on the copper antagonism of potassium? I was not able to find anything on it. Where does the believe come from that potassium blocks copper to a meaningful extent?

The only thing that truly blocks copper absorption is zinc, that's why Wilson's disease is treated with zinc. Even molybdenum does not block copper effectively, so much that the only supplement that can be used for Wilson's is tetrathiomolybdate, a special metabolite of molybdenum that blocks copper absorption in the intestine. For the intestine to create tetrathiomolybdate, both sulfur and molybdenum need to be present.

Beyond sulfur, molybdenum and zinc, there's nothing that effectively blocks copper absorption.

You said that potassium blocks copper. Where did you get that belief from?



All of what you write indicates you have massive problems and are very sensitive to all kinds of stuff. Hardly a good way to judge copper requirements.

To me it indicates you have a problem with your intestine and gut flora. Likely from chronic toxicity. Copper is an antibiotic.

If you believe you have copper deficiency, did you at least measure blood copper, ceruloplasmin, hair copper?

Many people, like you are doing here, make way too many assumptions based on unfounded theories and ideas, without any objective data to support it. I also did that in the past.

I measured my copper values and hair copper, and both my blood values (percentage of unbound copper) and hair values indicated chronic copper overload. No need to guess.

I don't limit my copper (I still eat wheat, mushrooms, potatoes), but I probably get 20-30mg of zinc per day from beef.

Just like you, I took copper regularly and it helped greatly with controlling some gut issues. Well, it backfired greatly, led to a hair level of copper beyond the reference range, and I regret it. Taking copper is very dangerous.

That's very interesting what you say about wilsons and being treated with zinc and moly.

I actually do have copper and ceruloplasmin blood values, multiple times and they have always been deficient. My naturopath even said I should rule out Wilson's disease, but no doctor takes it seriously or even knows what they are talking about. Even the lab I used put in a note saying I should rule out Wilson's.

These are my values: (tested multiple times)

Coeruloplasmin - 148,0 mg/L (200-600)
Copper - 7,9 umol/L (11-22)
Zinc - 10,4 umol/L (9-18)

Coeruloplasmin - 13 mg/dl (15-30)
Copper - 52 ug/dl (65-165)
Zinc - 80 ug/dl (70-150)


Working with my naturopath and the low A crowd, they all push zinc on me saying its a functional copper deficiency and the copper is hidden in tissues and stored in the liver. But taking massive zinc doses doesnt fix it and my levels have been like this for years now. Even my zinc doesnt budge even though I take it.

Maybe I do actually have a need for moly. But I keep thinking maybe its also just making copper more bio- unavailable for me. In the beginning I would get insane energy from it, but these days I get these insane liver pains from it. Maybe its part of the detox process but I am not sure. Also, I am kinda scared of that one guy who went psychotic because of molybdenum.

Do you have any input? I'd greatly appreciate any input as I've been clueless and unable to move forward with this and my symptoms just get worse and worse and nobody and no ideology seems to be able to help.

 

[Aromasin]

You have not been looking very hard because this is been talked about quite a bit. Toxic bile theory explains this easily.

Does Dr Garret mention liver flushes?

 

[charlie]

Does Dr Garret mention liver flushes?

He does and he does not recommend them.

 

[Aromasin]

He does and he does not recommend them.

Okay. Because of how improper use of them could make the matter worse?

 

[charlie]

Okay. Because of how improper use of them could make the matter worse?

If I remember correctly he thinks they could be dangerous.

 

[Dutchie]

You have not been looking very hard because this is been talked about quite a bit. Toxic bile theory explains this easily.

Of all the succes stories and info you post here and from what I see on many low A forums/groups, I've never seen anyone with similar issues and/or mentioning a dysbiosis being at the root of it.

Yesterday I fell (what's new these days) and scratched my leg. The immediate swelling and bruising was unlike anything I'd ever experienced before....the swelling looked as if someone had put an egg under my skin.
I think my blood is filled with alcohol. (Alcohol can create this severity of swelling and bruising).
This can in no way be only from vit.A as I've never had a ridiculous high A diet, so I suspect there might be some kind of bacteria creating ethanol on top. I've searched if there are bacteria who possibly feed on vit.A, but didn't find anything about it.

 

[Aromasin]

Of all the succes stories and info you post here and from what I see on many low A forums/groups, I've never seen anyone with similar issues and/or mentioning a dysbiosis being at the root of it.

Yesterday I fell (what's new these days) and scratched my leg. The immediate swelling and bruising was unlike anything I'd ever experienced before....the swelling looked as if someone had put an egg under my skin.
I think my blood is filled with alcohol. (Alcohol can create this severity of swelling and bruising).
This can in no way be only from vit.A as I've never had a ridiculous high A diet, so I suspect there might be some kind of bacteria creating ethanol on top. I've searched if there are bacteria who possibly feed on vit.A, but didn't find anything about it.

As I understand it - if indeed you do have ethanol or any kind of aldehyde producing dysbiosis then vit A toxicity will make it worse since ALDH enzymes will get overburdened. Dysbiosis is likely a downstream issue whenever bile dysfunction is present

 

[charlie]

Of all the succes stories and info you post here and from what I see on many low A forums/groups, I've never seen anyone with similar issues and/or mentioning a dysbiosis being at the root of it.

Yesterday I fell (what's new these days) and scratched my leg. The immediate swelling and bruising was unlike anything I'd ever experienced before....the swelling looked as if someone had put an egg under my skin.
I think my blood is filled with alcohol. (Alcohol can create this severity of swelling and bruising).
This can in no way be only from vit.A as I've never had a ridiculous high A diet, so I suspect there might be some kind of bacteria creating ethanol on top. I've searched if there are bacteria who possibly feed on vit.A, but didn't find anything about it.

"vitamin A" is treated by the body just like an alcohol. However, it is fat soluble so over time it will accumulate in the tissues and liver. The liver is the root of dysbiosis. Fixing the liver via a low toxin and low "vitamin A" diet fixes everything.

 

[Dutchie]

As I understand it - if indeed you do have ethanol or any kind of aldehyde producing dysbiosis then vit A toxicity will make it worse since ALDH enzymes will get overburdened. Dysbiosis is likely a downstream issue whenever bile dysfunction is present

Yes, Thank you, I figured something myself.
However,what puzzles me is how even eating trace amounts of vit A cause these immediate toxicity effects. That gives me the impression that there must be a bacteria which somehow feast on it and/or immediately converts it to ethanol, bc the conversion process from vit.a to alcohol takes longer.
And....what is it that triggers the bacterial alcohol/aldehyde production? For most it's fermenting carbs, however I don't eat carbs or have eaten the past years.

 

[Dutchie]

"vitamin A" is treated by the body just like an alcohol. However, it is fat soluble so over time it will accumulate in the tissues and liver. The liver is the root of dysbiosis. Fixing the liver via a low toxin and low "vitamin A" diet fixes everything.

Yes,Thank you, but as I mentioned above.
I suspect there's still something (bacteria?) ongoing which keeps creating alcohol. If that doesn't get stopped in it's tracks,my liver and entire body will never get a chance to recuperate.
Mind you, I've already been spending years on liver health, but the ongoing alcohol production now makes sense why I've never managed to fully recuperate and it merely felt like I was putting bandages on everything.

 

[mosaic01]

I suspect there's still something (bacteria?) ongoing which keeps creating alcohol. If that doesn't get stopped in it's tracks,my liver and entire body will never get a chance to recuperate.

The way out of dysbiosis is with a consistent dose of binders (bentonite, zeolite, charcoal) three times daily, potentially some CDS drops, and then patience. Dysbiosis is just toxins that can't get out.

 

[Dutchie]

The way out of dysbiosis is with a consistent dose of binders (bentonite, zeolite, charcoal) three times daily, potentially some CDS drops, and then patience. Dysbiosis is just toxins that can't get out.

All these binders don't work for me, they constipated me, which means no toxins moving out=bad.
I've taken CDS for a while a couple years ago. The first 1-2 weeks I felt great on it,but then it started to steadily make me feel worse and I also felt like it was doing anything helpful anymore....not to mention the disgusting pool water taste
And no....this increase of feeling worse on it is not just bc of detox. Detox isn't supposed to be an ongoing steady decline.