Ideal Copper Intake May Be Higher Than What's Currently Recommended

Amazoniac

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- An exposure-response curve for copper excess and deficiency

"The purpose of the current paper [was] to provide a brief review of current dietary reference values for copper; define the acceptable range of oral intake as described by the World Health Organization; present the results of the literature review update; and utilize the updated database to construct an exposure-response model for copper deficiency and excess."

"For adult men and women, the recommended dietary intake (RDI) is currently set at 0.9 mg Cu/day (Food and Nutrition Board, 2001). The RDI is defined as being equal to the estimated average requirement (EAR) plus twice the coefficient of variation (set at 15%) to cover the needs of 98% percent of individuals (the RDI is thus 130% of the EAR)."

"In North America the EAR is the intake level for a nutrient at which the needs of 50% of the population will be met (Cockell et al., 2008). Data from three studies were used to set the EAR at 0.7 mg Cu/day (Turnlund et al., 1990; Milne et al., 1996; Turnlund et al., 1997). No single indicator was judged to be adequate for deriving the EAR for adults. A combination of indicators from these studies were used, including plasma copper, ceruloplasmin, erythrocyte superoxide dismutase activity (SOD), and platelet copper concentrations (Food and Nutrition Board, 2001)."

"One study found that 0.4 mg Cu/day was not adequate to maintain levels of serum copper, ceruloplasmin and SOD activity in 8 of 11 young men (Turnlund et al., 1997). In the second study, 0.8 mg Cu/day did not result in a significant decline in serum copper, caeruloplasmin, or SOD activity (Turnlund et al., 1990). It was therefore decided that the copper intake needed to maintain copper status in half of the individuals in a group was more than 0.4 mg/day but less than 0.8 mg/day. The data from these two studies were then used to construct a linear model, which suggested that half of the male subjects would not maintain their copper status with a copper intake of 0.6 mg/day. The third study found that platelet copper concentration declined in 8 of 10 women given 0.6 mg/day, but increased with copper supplementation (Milne et al., 1996). As this study suggested that 0.6 mg/day may be a marginal intake level in over half the female population, an increment of 0.1 mg/day was added to cover the female population, resulting in an EAR of 0.7 mg Cu/day."

"The Food and Nutrition Board (FNB) comments on the fact that these indicators do not always reflect dietary intake and that they may be inadequate for the detection of marginal copper status (Food and Nutrition Board, 2001). For example, during pregnancy, two commonly used indicators, serum copper and ceruloplasmin, increase independent of diet. Similarly, as ceruloplasmin is an acute phase protein, both serum copper and ceruloplasmin often rise with numerous disease conditions (Food and Nutrition Board, 2001)."


"Biologically based dose-response models are of particular interest in the risk assessment of essential metallic elements, since different mechanisms may lead to adverse health outcomes from both states of excess and deficiency. In general there is a lack of understanding of the dynamic and kinetic properties of copper in animal and human tissues, which limits the application of biologically based exposure-response models. The review by Stern et al (2007) identified categorical regression as a potentially useful approach for modeling the exposure-response relationship of copper. Categorical regression involves the organization of qualitatively heterogeneous response data in the form of ordered categories of severity and the application of regression analysis to predict the probability that a particular severity category occurs as a function of one or more independent variables (i.e., concentration and duration of exposure). This modeling strategy can incorporate data for multiple endpoints from multiple studies of copper excess and deficiency (Stern et al., 2007)."

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"The purpose of defining a model with animal studies is to fill information gaps that exist among studies on humans. It is readily appreciated that experimental toxicity data is gathered more easily in animals than humans in part because of the unique ethical considerations associated with conduct of controlled human studies. As a result, it is not surprising that in the current copper database the studies with rats greatly outnumbered the studies with humans. To look at the impact of combining data from multiple animal species, three further models were defined. One model used only the human data, the second model used only the rat data and the last model used only the data on mice. The ERC10-T100 estimates produced from these three separate analyses were compared to the original analysis that incorporated all animal species."


"Based on the various results from sensitivity analyses, the final copper deficiency and excess models utilized exposure duration expressed in days and all of the available data on humans, rats and mice in a combined analysis. The cumulative odds models defined by these specifications produced an ERC10-T100 estimate at 2.2 mg/day (90% CI ) for severity level 2 or greater for copper deficiency and 3.3 mg/day (90% CI ) for severity level 2 or greater for copper excess. Figure 6a-d, presents the plots of the probability curves for severity levels 1 to 3 for both copper deficiency and copper excess. Equation 1 was used to create a summative U-shaped exposure-response curve (represented by the dotted curves in Figures 6b-d). The resulting trough in the U-shaped curve or the AROI is quite narrow. At the lowest level in the U-shaped curve for severity level 2 or greater (p=0.1080), the corresponding dose is equal to 2.6 mg/day. [f.lux is on, hopefully this is green] Therefore, the optimal intake level to protect the population from severity level 2 or greater responses associated with both copper deficiency and excess is approximately 2.6 mg/day. The optimal intake level to protect the population from severity level 3 or greater responses associated with both copper deficiency and excess is approximately 2.2 mg/day. It is important to note because group data, and not individual subject data, were used in this analysis, it complicates the interpretation of the final risk estimates."

upload_2019-7-19_21-53-40.png


"Figure 6a presents probability curves for copper deficiency and copper excess for severity levels 1 to 3.

Figures 6b‐d present probability curves for copper deficiency and excess for severity levels 1 to 3, respectively.
Each figure (6b‐d) also presents the summative probability curves defined by Equation 1. This curve is represented by: - - -"

You can tell that's even higher than 2.6 mg/d if you rely on the lowest point of the dip in 6b for severity 1.

Since there's no risk in increasing the consumption to their proposed range and it ended up being pretty reasonable, it's preferable to err on the assumption that current recommendations are not enough.

Whenever someone logs a diet in nutrition apps, the person can get a different sense of their situation depending on how these (adjustable) limits are set, judging adequate a diet that's not. Experiments to define them are also based on wealthy people, so the particular need might be higher than what's required to cover most of the population.

Bill could've written:

"What will be proved is now only imagin'd."​
 
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olive

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Good post. Interestingly bodybuilding guru’s always recommend 4g copper/day.
 
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Amazoniac

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Good post. Interestingly bodybuilding guru’s always recommend 4g copper/day.
3 mg/d is a reasonable target and more reliable than the current 0.9 mg/d. The person is left with a safe margin for conforming in case there's more (shady water) or less (lower content in food) than expected.

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The green line is their 2.6 mg/d suggestion, but it's based on decreasing as best as conditions allow the chances of deficiency (6c), check out Table 3 above. However even with category/severity 1 (6b), there's still in theory some demand for adaptation, so aiming at 3.0 mg/d seems preferable.

The following is a balance experiment that involved adjustment over time, but a single meal providing an excess of it (such as liver) must leave the person sufficient for a few days.
- 15 Milligrams Of Copper In A Day Without Liver Or Supplements To Meet AI
It's good to plug this thread here because consuming plenty of it should not be difficult.
 
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Terma

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Not the first time this comes up, more confirmation. Little I can add that hasn't been said (I think it's simply picolinic acid = zinc, niacin = copper, and this why the kynurenine pathway splits off in two, while diversion to kynurenic acid prevents either (the "brake")--or at least indirectly since seems to span different cell types; so this pathway may be important when quantifying copper needs).

(edit: and possibly even, always forget this one: Effects of endogenous neurotoxin quinolinic acid on reactive oxygen species production by Fenton reaction catalyzed by iron or copper )
 
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Amazoniac

Amazoniac

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- Copper intake and assessment of copper status

"Depressed cytochrome-c oxidase (EC 1.9.3.1) activity in tissues is an early and consistent sign of copper deficiency in animals (41)."

Also, David Milne, author of this XVIIII-century publication and one of the RDA experiments, already acknowledged back then that more is clearly needed after shortage (or when it's being used up faster?).​

Not the first time this comes up, more confirmation. Little I can add that hasn't been said (I think it's simply picolinic acid = zinc, niacin = copper, and this why the kynurenine pathway splits off in two, while diversion to kynurenic acid prevents either (the "brake")--or at least indirectly since seems to span different cell types; so this pathway may be important when quantifying copper needs).

(edit: and possibly even, always forget this one: Effects of endogenous neurotoxin quinolinic acid on reactive oxygen species production by Fenton reaction catalyzed by iron or copper )
Dear endocannabinoid master, do you mind elaborating on the niacin-copper interaction?

- News March-April 89 | Trace Elements

"The vitamin niacin and the mineral copper are mutually antagonistic to each other as copper deficiency can be induced by large intakes of niacin. Excess copper increases the requirements for niacin and, as mentioned above, also for vitamin C. In people suffering from pellagra, copper retention and absorption increases."​
 
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Terma

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- Copper intake and assessment of copper status

"Depressed cytochrome-c oxidase (EC 1.9.3.1) activity in tissues is an early and consistent sign of copper deficiency in animals (41)."

Also, David Milne, author of this XVIIII-century publication and one of the RDA experiments, already acknowledged back then that more is clearly needed after shortage (or when it's being used up faster?).​


Dear endocannabinoid master, do you mind elaborating on the niacin-copper interaction?

- News March-April 89 | Trace Elements

"The vitamin niacin and the mineral copper are mutually antagonistic to each other as copper deficiency can be induced by large intakes of niacin. Excess copper increases the requirements for niacin and, as mentioned above, also for vitamin C. In people suffering from pellagra, copper retention and absorption increases."​
That depends completely on how those measurements were taken, as in blood levels vs intracellular. Remember there is already a product called MitoSynergy, copper niacin. I think that niacin will drag copper into the cell. Just from the link above you can tell that Quin - at least in vitro - sequesters copper and makes it less reactive. Well the only thing you need to convert Quin to Niacin is PRPP, or basically ribose. In other words niacin should increase the usage of copper. At the intestinal level, if the body's metabolism is low due to pellagra, perhaps the gut is trying to increase metabolism by activating some alternative copper absorption pathway or agonist, but the cells can't use it so blood levels remain high. Just endospeculating!
 

Terma

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You need Quin/niacin to pick up your copper, and copper to back up your niacin (NAD/metabolism). And this could be - in part - why extra protein increases copper absorption: tryptophan -> quin [endospeculation].
 

Terma

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Do you think Conrad Elvehjem would like the Backstreet Boys if he were alive today?
 
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Amazoniac

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That depends completely on how those measurements were taken, as in blood levels vs intracellular. Remember there is already a product called MitoSynergy, copper niacin. I think that niacin will drag copper into the cell. Just from the link above you can tell that Quin - at least in vitro - sequesters copper and makes it less reactive. Well the only thing you need to convert Quin to Niacin is PRPP, or basically ribose. In other words niacin should increase the usage of copper. At the intestinal level, if the body's metabolism is low due to pellagra, perhaps the gut is trying to increase metabolism by activating some alternative copper absorption pathway or agonist, but the cells can't use it so blood levels remain high. Just endospeculating!
You need Quin/niacin to pick up your copper, and copper to back up your niacin (NAD/metabolism). And this could be - in part - why extra protein increases copper absorption: tryptophan -> quin [endospeculation].
It's true, people with fast metabolism appear to need more of it.

- Copper Deficiency In Humans

So, the most reliable sources seem to contain it mosty as Cu1+, but Cu2+ predominates in diets and often 'tightly bound to specific proteins', which requires adequate protein digestion to free it up and this process slows down the rate of apperance in the small intestine, leaving the body time to get it to its ideal state if needed for adsorption. It's claimed that acidification of the stomach can also facilitate the reduction from Cu2+ to Cu1+ (similar to ascorbic acid's effect on Fe3+ to Fe2+ and thereafter being easier to produce the uptake, which might help in copper adsorption as well); but it's accomplish'd mainly by reducing enzymes in the intestines (how resistant to impairment they is?).

I could never find the copper speciation of potatoes, but I suspect they're of good quality on top of being a great source of it. Can be rich in Cu1+ complexed with cysteine or glutathione, and its protein is easily digested.

I'm not sure if there's anything special to such product that others copper-bottomed organic salt of Cu1+ along with separate niacin can't do.


Do you think Conrad Elvehjem would like the Backstreet Boys if he were alive today?
Do you think Conrad Elvehjem would be one of the Backstreet Boys if he wased alive today?
 
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Can anyone recommend a copper supplement that is gentle on the stomach? The ones I have tried make me feel sick, even taken with food. Thanks!
 

Terma

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@Amazoniac My guess is that you're right, not enough time today to check out more. We should get BsB to interpret a tribute song to Elvehjem.

@Doublecapricorn They did the same to me and I usually like supplements, but I have to eat mushrooms, chocolate, liver, etc. I just add some niacin and histidine to them. I like your name.
 

Terma

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Short clarification because I wrote it badly and it's super misleading and I just remembered this thread after seeing travis thread: if you look at it from gut absorption perspective, you have to add copper to niacin, not niacin to copper, because as written above and in travis, free niacin absorbs quickly and comes back as picolinic acid to absorb zinc instead. In the blood/cells something else probably happens, however I couldn't tell if it's quinolinic acid or niacin that has the major copper-binding/mop-up role (see above + Interaction of niacin with copper ions - ScienceDirect + etc.). I wrote it that way because I never take them apart as both needed at cellular metabolic level anyway. But it's important you know this distinction if you have a real copper deficiency measured in blood since you don't want to screw with that. In that case get extra protein with the food copper (and you want working thyroid).
 
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Inspired

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I took high doses of zinc for a long time. I wonder if I created a copper deficiency.

I stopped zinc for the last couple of days, and added some low dose copper, and I seem to feel slightly better, but I can't say for sure if there's a relation yet.
 

Dobster

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Can anyone recommend a copper supplement that is gentle on the stomach? The ones I have tried make me feel sick, even taken with food. Thanks!
I too would like to hear about a good supplement that's easily absorbed and that won't upset the tummy.

Dobster
 

Terma

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@Amazoniac Not closely related but I forgot this (I don't think I'll be able to insert quin/niacin back into this for awhile):

The role of glutathione in copper metabolism and toxicity.
Cellular copper metabolism and the mechanism of resistance to copper toxicity were investigated using a wild type hepatoma cell line (HAC) and a copper-resistant cell line (HAC600) that accumulates copper and has a highly elevated level of metallothionein (MT). Of the enzymes involved in reactive oxygen metabolism, only glutathionine peroxidase was elevated (3-4-fold) in resistant cells, suggestive of an increase in the cellular flux of hydrogen peroxide. A majority of the cytoplasmic copper (greater than 60%) was isolated from both cell lines as a GSH complex. Kinetic studies of 67Cu uptake showed that GSH bound 67Cu before the metal was complexed by MT. Depletion of cellular GSH with buthionine sulfoximine inhibited the incorporation of 67Cu into MT by greater than 50%. These results support a model of copper metabolism in which the metal is complexed by GSH soon after entering the cell. The complexed metal is then transferred to MT where it is stored. This study also indicates that resistance to metal toxicity in copper-resistant hepatoma cells is due to increases in both cellular GSH and MT. Furthermore, it is suggested that elevated levels of GSH peroxidase allows cells to more efficiently accommodate an increased cellular hydrogen peroxide flux that may occur as a consequence of elevated levels of cytoplasmic copper.
https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpcell.00417.2012

The risk of lowering GSH might be compromising cellular copper retention/buffering. In any case you certainly need something to stabilize copper the entire way from the gut to ceruloplasmin to the intracellular MT.

^^^^ Also, if you have problems you should probably ignore my histidine comment above as well, because although it helped (my) digestion and the feeling of the copper supplement (for me) it probably ends up antagonizing copper absorption in more cases than it helps due to presence of zinc in food, another possible competition effect in the intestine and because I can't put forth enough about dosages/quantification. It could also lead to pissing out more copper according to one source, and of course there's the DAO enzyme. I consume well enough copper so I keep taking histidine regardless.
 

BigChad

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Can anyone recommend a copper supplement that is gentle on the stomach? The ones I have tried make me feel sick, even taken with food. Thanks!
@Dobster
did you try copper bisglycinate supplements 3mg? maybe take after food, and alongside other vitamins and minerals? vitamin a is needed for ceruloplasmin which is needed to prevent copper toxicity.

Yes, sorry - 4mg copper:15mg zinc.

that seems very high copper relative to zinc, I think a 1:7 copper to zinc may be better... most sites advise 1:8 to 1:12 copper:zinc overall ratio from diet and supps combined.
 

Spondive

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@Dobster
did you try copper bisglycinate supplements 3mg? maybe take after food, and alongside other vitamins and minerals? vitamin a is needed for ceruloplasmin which is needed to prevent copper toxicity.



that seems very high copper relative to zinc, I think a 1:7 copper to zinc may be better... most sites advise 1:8 to 1:12 copper:zinc overall ratio from diet and supps combined.
Where do they come up with these ratios and do you trust them?
 

olive

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@Dobster
did you try copper bisglycinate supplements 3mg? maybe take after food, and alongside other vitamins and minerals? vitamin a is needed for ceruloplasmin which is needed to prevent copper toxicity.



that seems very high copper relative to zinc, I think a 1:7 copper to zinc may be better... most sites advise 1:8 to 1:12 copper:zinc overall ratio from diet and supps combined.
Assuming we consume 4mg copper, with those ratio’s we’d need to consume 32-48mg of zinc per day. Seems excessive to me.
 
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