Low Toxin Studies "A pronounced copper deficiency syndrome could have resulted"

[mosaic01]

What are the consequences of not consuming much or any copper? Surprisingly, no one really seems to know.

Here are some quotes by EFSA (European Food Safety Authority) on copper:

"Clinical symptoms are not common in humans, and generally are seen as a consequence of mutations in the genes involved in copper metabolism."

"The Panel noted that there are no biomarkers of copper status that are sufficiently robust, sensitive and specific to be used for deriving requirements for copper. The Panel also considered whether health outcomes can be used to derive DRVs for copper. However, it was concluded that the limited evidence available on copper intake and cardiovascular disease-related outcomes and cancer cannot be used for setting DRVs for copper."

"The Panel decided to derive Adequate Intakes based on observed intakes in several EU countries."

"Furthermore, there is evidence that copper deficiency is associated with alterations in immune function (Kelley et al., 1995; Turnlund et al., 2004) and possibly bone function (Baker et al. ), although, in a further study, Baker et al. failed to confirm their earlier results. However, all these symptoms can occur in other diseases, making it very difficult to identify copper deficiency from the phenotype."

"According to IOM (2001), the study by Turnlund et al. (1990) showed that a copper intake in 11 young men above 0.38 mg/day is needed to prevent a decrease in relevant biochemical indicators (SOD activity, serum copper and ceruloplasmin concentration), whereas the study by Turnlund et al. (1997) showed that no decline in these biomarkers was observed in 11 young men at an intake of 0.79 mg/day."

https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.2903/j.efsa.2015.4253

I am pretty shocked to see what kind of data is used to tell billions of people how their diet should look like.

How difficult is it to take 10,000 people, divide them into 10 groups, and feed everyone a nutritious whole foods diet with varying levels of copper (like 3mg, 2mg, 1mg, 0.9 mg, 0.8mg, down to 0mg) and look whether actual health issues appear at lower levels.

But the following study gives at least an idea:

The results suggest that these indexes are sensitive to copper depletion; that 0.38 mg Cu/d is not sufficient to maintain copper status in normal, healthy young men; and that the minimum dietary copper requirement is between 0.4 and 0.8 mg/d.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000291652317554X/pdf?md5=0ea2fd29a0dcc1c30adc06a2275bcf71&pid=1-s2.0-S000291652317554X-main.pdf

You would expect that when the young men only received 0.4mg per day for 42 days, they suffered from debilitating copper deficiency symptoms. Actually, no symptoms at all appeared. Only some lab values were used to consider the diet inadequate in copper. Ceruloplasmin, SOD and plasma copper were a bit lowered (by around 20% or so).

Plasma copper fell from 14.8 to 12.6 umol/L, ceruloplasmin from 302 to 258 mg/L and SOD from 410 to 354 U/g. Interestingly, neither ceruloplasmin or SOD recovered to pre-study levels but stayed lower afterwards.

"The results of our current study clearly suggest that 0.4 mg Cu/d is not sufficient to maintain copper status. A number of indexes declined during the low-copper diet, then increased during repletion. Although clinical symptoms of copper deficiency were not observed in any of the subjects, this is not surprising given the short time period of the depletion. Indexes did not reach deficient ranges, but differences between treatments were significant for the group and the trends suggest that, with time, a pronounced copper deficiency syndrome could have resulted."

Also, "Plasma copper had fallen significantly by the midpoint of depletion, but did not change significantly after that.", implying that there was no trend for copper to fall to zero at all.

These are the kind of studies that are used to tell billions of people what to eat.

Who knows what ideal blood values are when they are not matched against real world symptoms and data? "A pronounced copper deficiency syndrome could have resulted" - it would be nice to see this mythical syndrome in the real world and not just in theories.

 

[charlie]

It's almost like they reached around and pulled their info out their bunghole and said "hey fellas let's make this official!".

I mentioned in another thread, Dr. Garrett Smith has never seen one legitimate case of copper deficiency is all his years of clinical practice. The last few years he has had his clients taking zinc on the regular, and still, not one single case of copper deficiency.

 

[Elie]

Useful information. Thank you.
Off course this creates more questions, but that what learning and science are about.

 

[Hidden49]

His views about no one needing copper is straight up dumb, I've seen so many people on low Vit A that become deathly pale and it's because they are not metabolising iron correctly. Sure maybe the body is able to operate without copper but take enough zinc and you'll just lower your NA:K ratio and slow yourself way down.

I recently got a new air filter (air doctor) for my room to address mold issues and any harmful pollutants in my room and it has supercharged my energy and motivation compared to before I got it. And since then my body has been calling for me to take low dose copper and it's given me a nice oxygenated feeling in the brain (it now actually feels like my body is utilising oxygen correctly when before it wasn't), it's given me much more mental clarity and it now feels like I am actually making dopamine now when before I wasn't. For example I've been eating beef everyday for a long time and it has always felt like I am not using the iron from the meat correctly (eg not making dopamine) and was slowing me down but now with the copper I feel amazing from the beef compared to normal. Also the copper has made my stools dark brown so it seems to be improving my bile not making it worse when before I took it stool colour was lighter.

Also when I take just zinc on it's own I get 0 attention from girls and it doesn't make me dump copper or improve my bile, but when I take copper suddenly every girl I walk pass is giving me attention.

If you take copper and you feel a drug effect then you're body is simply not using the copper as it should be, you need good potassium, magnesium levels and good adrenal and thyroid activity to use copper properly otherwise it will cause issues.

 

[Deadpool]

His views about no one needing copper is straight up dumb, I've seen so many people on low Vit A that become deathly pale and it's because they are not metabolising iron correctly. Sure maybe the body is able to operate without copper but take enough zinc and you'll just lower your NA:K ratio and slow yourself way down.

I recently got a new air filter (air doctor) for my room to address mold issues and any harmful pollutants in my room and it has supercharged my energy and motivation compared to before I got it. And since then my body has been calling for me to take low dose copper and it's given me a nice oxygenated feeling in the brain (it now actually feels like my body is utilising oxygen correctly when before it wasn't), it's given me much more mental clarity and it now feels like I am actually making dopamine now when before I wasn't. For example I've been eating beef everyday for a long time and it has always felt like I am not using the iron from the meat correctly (eg not making dopamine) and was slowing me down but now with the copper I feel amazing from the beef compared to normal. Also the copper has made my stools dark brown so it seems to be improving my bile not making it worse when before I took it stool colour was lighter.

Also when I take just zinc on it's own I get 0 attention from girls and it doesn't make me dump copper or improve my bile, but when I take copper suddenly every girl I walk pass is giving me attention.

If you take copper and you feel a drug effect then you're body is simply not using the copper as it should be, you need good potassium, magnesium levels and good adrenal and thyroid activity to use copper properly otherwise it will cause issues.

I’ve got very similar results man. I feel like I am getting paler and paler and not using oxygen or iron and not making dopamine when going super high zinc and other copper chelators.

Taking copper doesn’t seem like the solution either but just pushing copper chelators isn’t it.

Also when I take high zinc I become very stoic, cold, analytical, in my head, awkward and it’s like I push people away socially. The opposite of that loose, flowy, dopamine vibe. But copper doesn’t get me there either. Copper just makes me anxious.

I recently tried zinc gluconate again and it seemed to have a very different effect than the zinc picolinate Ive been pushing. Felt like it was mobilizing copper actually.

 

[Hidden49]

I’ve got very similar results man. I feel like I am getting paler and paler and not using oxygen or iron and not making dopamine when going super high zinc and other copper chelators.

Taking copper doesn’t seem like the solution either but just pushing copper chelators isn’t it.

Also when I take high zinc I become very stoic, cold, analytical, in my head, awkward and it’s like I push people away socially. The opposite of that loose, flowy, dopamine vibe. But copper doesn’t get me there either. Copper just makes me anxious.

I recently tried zinc gluconate again and it seemed to have a very different effect than the zinc picolinate Ive been pushing. Felt like it was mobilizing copper actually.

Copper only started working for me after I had done daily coffee enemas for 4 months straight while on low Vit A, it was around the 4th month of doing the coffee enemas my body suddenly started craving a copper supplement and the 2 years before I would be disgusted even at the thought of taking a copper supplement. So I guess I cleared out enough copper in my liver in those 4 months of coffee enemas so that my liver was now able to make sufficient ceruloplasmin to use copper properly, when before that it wasn't. And all I needed was around 0.2-0.5mg copper at that time and it really improved my oxygen utilisation and my iron metabolism when I ate red meat, my face finally started looking young and again and much healthier.

I also had the same experience with zinc picolinate it didn't feel like the zinc from it was bioavailable at all for me where as the life extension zinc which is zinc citrate and gluconate did feel bioavailable.

 

[mosaic01]

His views about no one needing copper is straight up dumb, I've seen so many people on low Vit A that become deathly pale and it's because they are not metabolising iron correctly. Sure maybe the body is able to operate without copper but take enough zinc and you'll just lower your NA:K ratio and slow yourself way down.

I recently got a new air filter (air doctor) for my room to address mold issues and any harmful pollutants in my room and it has supercharged my energy and motivation compared to before I got it. And since then my body has been calling for me to take low dose copper and it's given me a nice oxygenated feeling in the brain (it now actually feels like my body is utilising oxygen correctly when before it wasn't), it's given me much more mental clarity and it now feels like I am actually making dopamine now when before I wasn't. For example I've been eating beef everyday for a long time and it has always felt like I am not using the iron from the meat correctly (eg not making dopamine) and was slowing me down but now with the copper I feel amazing from the beef compared to normal. Also the copper has made my stools dark brown so it seems to be improving my bile not making it worse when before I took it stool colour was lighter.

Also when I take just zinc on it's own I get 0 attention from girls and it doesn't make me dump copper or improve my bile, but when I take copper suddenly every girl I walk pass is giving me attention.

If you take copper and you feel a drug effect then you're body is simply not using the copper as it should be, you need good potassium, magnesium levels and good adrenal and thyroid activity to use copper properly otherwise it will cause issues.

Makes sense to me that copper is generally needed in the body.

But why not eat high copper foods and see whether that gives you an effect? Eat some cashews, mushrooms and potatoes and you easily get 3-4 mg just from those three foods.

Supplements have drug-like effects. In pig feed lots, both zinc and especially copper are used for their antibacterial and anti-inflammatory effect in the gut and intestine. Ever since the ban of using massive amounts of antibiotics, the industry has discovered that you can simply use high dose copper to have the same effect. That's why newborn pigs receive like 200-300mg copper per kilogram of food.

 

[Hidden49]

I’ve got very similar results man. I feel like I am getting paler and paler and not using oxygen or iron and not making dopamine when going super high zinc and other copper chelators.

Taking copper doesn’t seem like the solution either but just pushing copper chelators isn’t it.

Also when I take high zinc I become very stoic, cold, analytical, in my head, awkward and it’s like I push people away socially. The opposite of that loose, flowy, dopamine vibe. But copper doesn’t get me there either. Copper just makes me anxious.

I recently tried zinc gluconate again and it seemed to have a very different effect than the zinc picolinate Ive been pushing. Felt like it was mobilizing copper actually.

Copper only started working for me after I had done daily coffee enemas for 4 months straight while on low Vit A, it was around the 4th month of doing daily coffee enemas my body suddenly started craving a copper supplement and the 2 years before I would be disgusted even at the thought of taking a copper supplement. So I guess I cleared out enough unbioavailable/stuck copper in my liver in those 4 months of coffee enemas so that my liver was now able to make sufficient ceruloplasmin to use copper properly when before that it wasn't. All I needed was around 0.1-0.4mg copper at that time and it really improved my oxygen utilisation and my iron metabolism when I ate red meat, my face finally started looking young and again and much healthier.

Also i had the same experience as you with zinc picolinate it didn't feel like the zinc from it was bioavailable at all for me where as the life extension zinc which is zinc citrate and gluconate did feel bioavailable. But I know zinc picolinate works great for some people.

 

[mosaic01]

Taking copper doesn’t seem like the solution either but just pushing copper chelators isn’t it.

Just for the record. I personally don't think that everyone should just go and take all these copper antagonists like zinc, molybdenum, etc.

I think the only minerals that can be generously supplemented for detox are potassium, magnesium, salt. Basically the electrolytes.

Zinc and molybdenum can cause issues when not careful.

There's really no point for a blanket recommendation of molybdenum on a bean-rich diet, and also a whole-foods diet without beans has plenty of molybdenum.

Taking zinc regularly on top of a beef-rich diet is also questionable except when actually deficient.

Isolated chemicals sooner or latter cause imbalances, and one should not forget that zinc is a heavy metal. Too much of it and it takes a lot of time to get it out again. The electrolytes do not cause imbalances that easily, because they are used up in metabolic processes pretty reliably without accumulating, and taken together, they synergize.

It's so easy to get caught up in the idea that there's a magic supplement that resolves things, or that one has to take all kinds of stuff to have results.

These things are tools, not obligatory medications.

 

[Dutchie]

I think the only minerals that can be generously supplemented for detox are potassium, magnesium, salt. Basically the electrolytes

Potassium is also a copper antagonist, so not advisable to throw caution in the wind and generously supplement if one is low copper.

 

[Peater]

Appreciate your posts everyone. I find the copper debate so interesting but also so frustrating (To understand - not frustrated by peoples posts)

 

[Peater]

Potassium is also a copper antagonist, so not advisable to throw caution in the wind and generously supplement if one is low copper.

I think taurine is as well.

 

[Hidden49]

Makes sense to me that copper is generally needed in the body.

But why not eat high copper foods and see whether that gives you an effect? Eat some cashews, mushrooms and potatoes and you easily get 3-4 mg just from those three foods.

Supplements have drug-like effects. In pig feed lots, both zinc and especially copper are used for their antibacterial and anti-inflammatory effect in the gut and intestine. Ever since the ban of using massive amounts of antibiotics, the industry has discovered that you can simply use high dose copper to have the same effect. That's why newborn pigs receive like 200-300mg copper per kilogram of food.

I have tried that but didn't get great results, for some reason taking low dose copper on its own (when my body needed it) was a lot more effective and worked differently to eating something like cashews. Also I eat things like parsnips daily but never got the same effects, I guess things like cashews are high in other minerals like iron and maybe this affects how much copper you absorb etc.

 

[mosaic01]

Potassium is also a copper antagonist, so not advisable to throw caution in the wind and generously supplement if one is low copper.

Doubt that potassium is a copper antagonist in the real world. The list of so-called copper antagonists is extremely long, and beyond zinc and molybdenum, there's not many things that actually do antagonize copper in the body effectively. Calcium is also on the list. Somehow literally everything is on the list, apparently.

Only sulfur, zinc and molybdenum effectively antagonize copper. Some other minerals probably do as well, like calcium and iron. But beyond that, I doubt much does.

"The results indicate that Ag is the strongest copper antagonist followed by Cd, Mo, Zn, and SO4 in descending order."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022316623120554

One needs to ask, why is it said that there so many copper antagonists? Why aren't there a lot of zinc antagonists, for example? The reason is simply that scientists have misunderstood the nature of copper completely. If "everything" antagonizes copper, then one could also say that the body simply does not want copper in the body.

I have tried that but didn't get great results, for some reason taking low dose copper on its own (when my body needed it) was a lot more effective and worked differently to eating something like cashews. Also I eat things like parsnips daily but never got the same effects, I guess things like cashews are high in other minerals like iron and maybe this affects how much copper you absorb etc.

That suggests a pharmaceutical effect of sorts. So you needed 0.1-0.4mg of copper via supplements, but ingesting something like cashews which gives you 2.2mg per 100g doesn't do anything.

You did not experience a nutritional effect. The body is perfectly capable of extracting some copper out of 100g of food.

 

[Peater]

@mosaic01 What are your thoughts on cocoa? I had a look of interest and even though it's heavily frowned upon, it's still higher in zinc than copper!

 

[Dutchie]

I think taurine is as well.

Yeah, you're rigth.

 

[Dutchie]

Doubt that potassium is a copper antagonist in the real world. The list of so-called copper antagonists is extremely long, and beyond zinc and molybdenum, there's not many things that actually do antagonize copper in the body effectively. Calcium is also on the list. Somehow literally everything is on the list, apparently.

Only sulfur, zinc and molybdenum effectively antagonize copper. Some other minerals probably do as well, like calcium and iron. But beyond that, I doubt much does.

"The results indicate that Ag is the strongest copper antagonist followed by Cd, Mo, Zn, and SO4 in descending order."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022316623120554

One needs to ask, why is it said that there so many copper antagonists? Why aren't there a lot of zinc antagonists, for example? The reason is simply that scientists have misunderstood the nature of copper completely. If "everything" antagonizes copper, then one could also say that the body simply does not want copper in the body.



That suggests a pharmaceutical effect of sorts. So you needed 0.1-0.4mg of copper via supplements, but ingesting something like cashews which gives you 2.2mg per 100g doesn't do anything.

You did not experience a nutritional effect. The body is perfectly capable of extracting some copper out of 100g of food.

You're free to question it, but I (sadly) have experienced it when I was being more liberal with potassium.

 

[mosaic01]

@mosaic01 What are your thoughts on cocoa? I had a look of interest and even though it's heavily frowned upon, it's still higher in zinc than copper!

Being a bit higher in zinc does not mean much when the ratio of copper to zinc is still below 1:2.

You're free to question it, but I (sadly) have experienced it when I was being more liberal with potassium.

Without actual lab tests, you can't know you experienced copper antagonism, all you know is that you reacted negatively to potassium.

Can you point me to any information or studies on the copper antagonism of potassium? I was not able to find anything on it. Where does the believe come from that potassium blocks copper to a meaningful extent?

The only thing that truly blocks copper absorption is zinc, that's why Wilson's disease is treated with zinc. Even molybdenum does not block copper effectively, so much that the only supplement that can be used for Wilson's is tetrathiomolybdate, a special metabolite of molybdenum that blocks copper absorption in the intestine. For the intestine to create tetrathiomolybdate, both sulfur and molybdenum need to be present.

Beyond sulfur, molybdenum and zinc, there's nothing that effectively blocks copper absorption.

 

[purple pill]

I read an article in the tabloids once that was quite interesting about a girl who worked at a tanning salon and was "addicted" to sunbeds. She used them so much that she wasn't able to tan anymore! IIRC it was put down to the body using up all her copper stores but who knows maybe Garrett's right and she burned off all her vitamin A stores, either way she still looked very healthy definitely not anemic. Is copper essential for the production of melanin? Can't find any references for this and sure the girl would've been on a standard diet with plenty copper anyways.

 

[Dutchie]

Being a bit higher in zinc does not mean much when the ratio of copper to zinc is still below 1:2.



Without actual lab tests, you can't know you experienced copper antagonism, all you know is that you reacted negatively to potassium.

Can you point me to any information or studies on the copper antagonism of potassium? I was not able to find anything on it. Where does the believe come from that potassium blocks copper to a meaningful extent?

The only thing that truly blocks copper absorption is zinc, that's why Wilson's disease is treated with zinc. Even molybdenum does not block copper effectively, so much that the only supplement that can be used for Wilson's is tetrathiomolybdate, a special metabolite of molybdenum that blocks copper absorption in the intestine. For the intestine to create tetrathiomolybdate, both sulfur and molybdenum need to be present.

Beyond sulfur, molybdenum and zinc, there's nothing that effectively blocks copper absorption.

You're free to believe as you will.
I don't feel called to go look up all kinds of studies to prove something to you, my experience is enough for me.

Prior I did fine with potassium, it wasn't after cutting vit.a foods, that the potassium and copper problem started happening. In this case cutting my daily goat cheese in the morning, which was my main dietary source of copper (and vit.a).
Since stopping this, on top of the walking difficulties, the skin on my legs and feet also became numb...which is a symptom of copper deficiency. (Yes, I first tried B12 as this can cause that as well).
When looking at my diet I saw that I hardly got in any copper on top of eating high zinc foods. (This was the exact same diet I had when still eating the goat cheese&goat ghee).
Now, I need to take some copper bisglycinate (which I'm not happy with) daily to keep the numbness low and I to also keep bowel movement.

This to me indicates there's something not going well anymore in the copper/iron metabolism since cutting out vitamin A.
Yet,I seem to not be able to keep in a small amount of vit.A without experiencing high alcohol problems.
So, I'm caught somewhere between 2 worlds....Morley Robbins proponents on one side and G.Smith/Grant/low A people on the other side....and neither camps provide a solution to my problem.