Dr. Chandler Marrs On Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) - Mitochondria's Gateway To Energy

[Inaut]

 

[charlie]

 

[jb116]

Chandler: In the rice it's in the brown rice, the outside, the husk. The story - this is Dr. Londsdale's part because he's historically been involved with this - is that the Japanese, when they began polishing the rice is when they began seeing the thiamine deficiency. Of course they did not know what it was at that point but they realized at some point later that they needed the meats, they needed the different nutrients. They needed additional foods to get thiamine. They couldn't just eat white rice. One of the things I will say as an aside, as an athlete and as a lifter and cross-fit and all of that, one of the key foods these days that all of the athletes just absolutely love is white rice. They live on white rice and I cringe every time because they have these high carbohydrate pre-workout drinks that are basically caffeine and sugar and then they'll have a protein and white rice. It's just a mess.

Elliot: So essentially when we're removing that husk, we're taking out the micronutrients but we're keeping the macronutrients.

Chandler: Yes. And we're making it pretty and easier to digest so to speak, because it is quicker to some extent. But we've derailed our metabolism in the long run.

Elliot: Okay, so what happens when this goes on for too long? For instance, if thiamine is so important and people are low for whatever reason in our modern world, because we have this chronic influx of sugar, refined carbohydrates, refined grains, all of these things, how can this manifest in the human body? What kind of things might you see?

Elliot: That brings me on to the next question actually. So from what I gather, eating a diet high in sugar is probably not a good idea.

Chandler: No.

 

[Inaut]

Yea as the interview progresses she says a healthy diet is high in protein, fat and vegetables. Fruits not so much. Not my cup a...Either way, I’m more interested to hear what she has to say about the vitamin than her dietary choices. She don’t like coffee though because it cancels out thiamine supposedly.....

 

[charlie]

Chandler: In the rice it's in the brown rice, the outside, the husk. The story - this is Dr. Londsdale's part because he's historically been involved with this - is that the Japanese, when they began polishing the rice is when they began seeing the thiamine deficiency. Of course they did not know what it was at that point but they realized at some point later that they needed the meats, they needed the different nutrients. They needed additional foods to get thiamine. They couldn't just eat white rice. One of the things I will say as an aside, as an athlete and as a lifter and cross-fit and all of that, one of the key foods these days that all of the athletes just absolutely love is white rice. They live on white rice and I cringe every time because they have these high carbohydrate pre-workout drinks that are basically caffeine and sugar and then they'll have a protein and white rice. It's just a mess.

Elliot: So essentially when we're removing that husk, we're taking out the micronutrients but we're keeping the macronutrients.

Chandler: Yes. And we're making it pretty and easier to digest so to speak, because it is quicker to some extent. But we've derailed our metabolism in the long run.

Elliot: Okay, so what happens when this goes on for too long? For instance, if thiamine is so important and people are low for whatever reason in our modern world, because we have this chronic influx of sugar, refined carbohydrates, refined grains, all of these things, how can this manifest in the human body? What kind of things might you see?

Elliot: That brings me on to the next question actually. So from what I gather, eating a diet high in sugar is probably not a good idea.

Chandler: No.

 

[charlie]

She don’t like coffee though because it cancels out thiamine supposedly.....

Yeh I have read that many times about coffee cancelling out thiamine.

 

[jb116]

Make sure she understands that.

 

[charlie]

Yea as the interview progresses she says a healthy diet is high in protein, fat and vegetables. Fruits not so much. Not my cup a...Either way, I’m more interested to hear what she has to say about the vitamin than her dietary choices. She don’t like coffee though because it cancels out thiamine supposedly.....

Dr. Londales blog is gold. I just found it and I will be there a while soaking up info. lol

Here is one of his replies where he talks about the blood tests are unreliable:
About TTFD: A Thiamine Derivative- Hormones Matter

Here is some articles from the blog:
What is Thiamine to Energy Metabolism?- Hormones Matter
Beriberi is Alive and Well in America - Hormones Matter
Gastrointestinal Disease and Thiamine - Hormones Matter


Main blog link:
Derrick Lonsdale, MD

 

[charlie]

We have known for many years that sugar in all its different forms can and will precipitate mild thiamine deficiency. It is probably the reason why sugar is considered to be a frequent cause of trouble. If thiamine deficiency is mild, any form of minor stress may precipitate a much more serious form of the deficiency.

Boom. Sames goes for niacin too. That is why all the skin issues when we try and crank up the metabolism and pour on the sugar. We burnt up our b vitamins and stuff starts breaking down. Same reason a lot of us put on weight which is mostly water, one of the links above touches on thiamine deficiency and obesity. It's the B's man, and their cofactors of course. This is yuuuge.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

Yes, the Bs are very important.

I don’t refute the „sugar depletes stuff“ so easily. The present availability of sugar is evolutionarily freakish, and while it is the excellent energy source to our life, it needs cofactors to do its job.


Coffee consumption and circulating B-vitamins in healthy middle-aged men and women. - PubMed - NCBI

Seems coffee affects B2, 6 and Folate the most.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

From 2019:
Neurological, Psychiatric, and Biochemical Aspects of Thiamine Deficiency in Children and Adults


Despite the availability of dietary thiamine in wealthy countries, thiamine deficiency represents an important and usually overlooked issue. In developed countries, the predominant use of industrial food processing often depletes thiamine content along with other vitamins and nutrients. An increased consumption of processed food in the form of simple carbohydrates, not supplemented with adequate levels of thiamine, has been named “high calorie malnutrition” (7, 8). Thus, despite the caloric density, the diet is often of poor nutrition quality and does not meet recommended dietary guidelines for micronutrient intake, making this an at-risk population for micronutrient malnutrition (8). For instance, at least 29% of obese subjects that will undergo bariatric surgery have been reported as thiamine deficient (9). This condition highlights the fine balance between adequate caloric intake and balanced nutritional diet. As thiamine is a key factor in the metabolism of glucose, an increased carbohydrate intake will proportionally increase thiamine’s dietary demand (a minimum of 0.33 mg per 1,000 kcal) (1). Thus, rather than focusing on thiamine’s RDA, it is critical to match its intake with carbohydrate consumption as well as total caloric intake.

In developing countries, thiamine deficiency remains a widespread concern due to high rates of white rice consumption (3). As home-pounding techniques are replaced with industrial rice milling and processing, essential nutrients (such as thiamine) within the bran are stripped away (10). Asian countries consume about 90% of the rice produced worldwide, fulfilling an estimated 60% of the population’s daily dietary energy intake requirement, and consequently, thiamine deficiency has become prevalent in the 15% of the adolescent population (using the most conservative approximation) (11). Thiamine deficiency may develop by ingesting diets either contaminated with thiamine-metabolizing enzymes (e.g., thiaminase) (12) or that underwent thiamine inactivation by heat and/or sulfur dioxide (13). Heavy consumption of tannin-containing or food rich in caffeine, theobromine, and theophylline (such as those present in coffee, chocolate, and tea, respectively) can inactivate thiamine, thereby compromising the thiamine status (7, 14, 15).

Other risk factors that increase the likelihood of insufficient thiamine intake include aging, economic status, eating disorders, medical conditions affecting the gastrointestinal tract, subjects receiving parental nutrition, bariatric surgery, diabetes, and alcohol abuse (9, 16–23). Unmet needs for increasing the nutritional intake of thiamine are reported during lactation, pregnancy, and increased physical activity (11, 24). During lactation, infants have increased risks of developing beriberi from newly deficient but asymptomatic mothers (11). For instance, 27% of women of childbearing age are considered thiamine deficient in Cambodia, with 38% of infants being diagnosed as severely deficient in thiamine, a critical issue that contributes significantly to the mortality of 3-month-old babies (11).

Evidence against the reported antithiamine effect of caffeic and chlorogenic acids. - PubMed - NC

 

[ExCarniv]

1L of orange juice gives 75% of daily requirement of B1.

Plus, milk, cheese, potatoes, lean beef, egg, liver are all decent sources too.

 

[mipp]

1L of orange juice gives 75% of daily requirement of B1.

Plus, milk, cheese, potatoes, lean beef, egg, liver are all decent sources too.

Beef is actually a poor source of B1. Which makes me wonder about Grant Genereux and his thiamin depletion diet of white rice and beef. He should be deficient unless he takes a supplement or the rice he eats has a lot of added B1. If he gets his thiamin from rice it would mean that food fortification is effective and thiamin or niacin deficiency shouldn't really be an issue in countries such as the US and Canada.

 

[ExCarniv]

Beef is actually a poor source of B1. Which makes me wonder about Grant Genereux and his thiamin depletion diet of white rice and beef. He should be deficient unless he takes a supplement or the rice he eats has a lot of added B1. If he gets his thiamin from rice it would mean that food fortification is effective and thiamin or niacin deficiency shouldn't really be an issue in countries such as the US and Canada.

Well, it adds up to the daily requirement, and have lots of the other Bs.

And unenriched white rice have some B1 too.

I believe that B vitamins shouldn't be a problem eating a Peaty style of diet.

But a spoonful of Nutritional yeast could be a good backup if well tolerated

 

[Nemo]

Starting eating brown rice daily about six months ago for manganese, didn't even know about the B1. But it sure gave me a lot more energy. Thanks for the video.

 

[charlie]

1L of orange juice gives 75% of daily requirement of B1.

Ray Peat has said unphysiological doses are sometimes needed to overcome deficiencies and such. Then if your transport system is broken that your body cannot carry B1 into the cells, well then regular ole Thiamine aint gonna do much.

The recommended MINIMUM daily allowances are just enough to keep someone out of malnutrition. Top that with modern day stress, depleted soils, and onslaught of chemicals. It is easy to see how one can become deficient. Then try to raise metabolism before repleting, whamo.

Starting eating brown rice daily about six months ago for manganese, didn't even know about the B1. But it sure gave me a lot more energy. Thanks for the video.

I read an account of an Asian family who switched from white rice to brown rice and it was the only change that was made and the grandmothers hair turned from gray back to the natural color.

TMI ALERT(poo talk): I tested some brown rice a couple weeks back and had some fantastic poo's. However I still got hit with endotoxin side effects so had to drop it. I hope that as I become more replete in the B's that I can then handle brown rice to get those awesome nutrients in it. White rice stops me up solid, beriberi anyone? Yet brown rice, great poo's.

So if white rice stops you solid, indicative of B1 deficiency? I think so.

 

[Whataboutbob]

 

[Steven Bussinger]

I looked into the "tannins bind B1" stuff a couple months ago. I wasn't able to draw a conclusion because one study found that tannins concentrated B1 in the liver, and I was very intrigued by that.

No other studies looked at that, because most modern studies are generally too myopic to evaluate the broader picture. That's why sometimes the older studies are more illuminating. They were basically starting from scratch and cast a wider net on the phenomenon they were trying to elucidate.

Regarding naturally occurring B vitamins, it's possible that the gut microbiome might be a hidden middle-man that has helped us out in the past. Or there is a generational issue as mothers in each successive generation have less nutrition to give their offspring. Either way, the amounts of B vitamins needed to correct certain conditions are not normally occurring in diet. I'd rather not play nutritional Russian roulette; I'll supplement.

 

[stackz07]

However I still got hit with endotoxin side effects so had to drop it.
So if white rice stops you solid, indicative of B1 deficiency? I think so.

What endotoxin effects did you experience?

 

[ursidae]

I’m pretty sure I exacerbated a deficiency trying to eat like grant and not being able to digest beans. Riboflavin likely too since mushrooms showed up in the stool intact. It’s a bad diet with deficiencies and crappy/indigestible sources of vitamins, not detox. The problems is how do you obtain it if you react very badly to nutritional yeast, pork, salmon, dairy and oranges. I’m waiting on Energin but supplements mess with my gut