Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) Deficiency: The "Great Imitator" Of Other Illnesses

[Peater]

Gonna have to bin my benfo(!) Gives me chronic itching. 4 hours sleep last night.

 

[Peater Pan]

Found this but haven't viewed yet:

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Thia

Gonna have to bin my benfo(!) Gives me chronic itching. 4 hours sleep last night.

Thiamine is a histamine liberator - make sure you get enough b2 egich helps to clear and it antagonises b1.

 

[Peater]

Thia

Thiamine is a histamine liberator - make sure you get enough b2 egich helps to clear and it antagonises b1.

Interesting thanks mate. What ratio do you think they should be taken?

 

[reality]

This thread and reading Elliot Overtons articles interested me as I’ve been eating white rice as my main carb source for some time, along with doing a brief experiment of super high carbs/Lower fat.
although I take a b complex I decided to try out extra thiamine and upon first dose of 500mg hcl I noticed an instant improvement in mood, mental well being and energy.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Interesting thanks mate. What ratio do you think they should be taken?

It depends what form. Ttfd(allithiamine) is very potent since most of it is absorbed and it readily crosses the bbb. In that case 1/1 should be good starting point. You will feel even few mgs of it - experiment. The other forms like mononitrate and hcl have maybe 3-5% bioavailability so in that case the ratio would be smaller - something like in Haidut’s Energin would be a good place to start. Also beware of the cofactors for b2 - iodine, selenium and molybdenum. Also for b1 you’ll need magnesium and potassium. I actually stoped ttfd since it fixed most of my problems, but it created some Issues down the line so now I’m using smaller doses of the Hcl form. Be careful with ttfd.

 

[Simatta]

Thank you for plugging this video! The guy in the video and Derrick Lonsdale saved my life.

You're welcome. He and Derrick has pivotal information to really emphasize understanding. Especially with a pro thermogenic diet such as Ray's suggests.

Thanks for posting this, I can't check out the video atm but will watch it a bit later for sure. Does he go over which type of thiamine is best to supplement with?

He does, he has a version and Ecological Formulas and Objective Nutrients Tiamax are his top recommendations. I would caution jumping into those waters without trying the basic version Thiamine HCL (just requires higher doses) as the versions he recommends are sulfur-based and can cause all types of weird reactions if you aren't modifying that pathway in the body for some people. I suspect a mutli-thiamine therapy would be wisest, but always titrate the dose. And consider magnesium, potassium, and a B-Complex to prevent issues with this sort of orthomolecular nutritional model.

thank you so much. This is great.

You're welcome ^_^.

I start sulbutiamin program today, I hope it will be good option for my asthenia, procrastination and mood swing problems. Also I will make topical solution for hair. It has 0.0467 mg/mL water solubility properties.

Curious to hear back how the topical application goes?

 

[Peater]

It depends what form. Ttfd(allithiamine) is very potent since most of it is absorbed and it readily crosses the bbb. In that case 1/1 should be good starting point. You will feel even few mgs of it - experiment. The other forms like mononitrate and hcl have maybe 3-5% bioavailability so in that case the ratio would be smaller - something like in Haidut’s Energin would be a good place to start. Also beware of the cofactors for b2 - iodine, selenium and molybdenum. Also for b1 you’ll need magnesium and potassium. I actually stoped ttfd since it fixed most of my problems, but it created some Issues down the line so now I’m using smaller doses of the Hcl form. Be careful with ttfd.

Thank you, I just finished off the last of my allithiamine. I'll stick with plain HCL now, the TTFD should have given my levels a boost if nothing else.

 

[ilhanxx]

It is just 2 day, but I can say that most underrated supplement is vit b1, I can take overdosed sulbutiamin(400 mg), It give nootropic effect But also calming, It removes cloud in the body, falling asleep is a little bit difficult, I will edit topical process.

 

[reality]

This thread and reading Elliot Overtons articles interested me as I’ve been eating white rice as my main carb source for some time, along with doing a brief experiment of super high carbs/Lower fat.
although I take a b complex I decided to try out extra thiamine and upon first dose of 500mg hcl I noticed an instant improvement in mood, mental well being and energy.

Update on this, been using thiamine everyday and it’s been a game changer. Mental/physical energy, verbal fluency, much less depressed and more in the moment. Even my digestion has improved and I can handle carbs much better without crashing, getting gas or looking ‘watery’. Especially over the holidays, I’m definitely burning through carbs like a furnace atm, it’s quite remarkable.

 

[Braveheart]

You're welcome. He and Derrick has pivotal information to really emphasize understanding. Especially with a pro thermogenic diet such as Ray's suggests.

He does, he has a version and Ecological Formulas and Objective Nutrients Tiamax are his top recommendations. I would caution jumping into those waters without trying the basic version Thiamine HCL (just requires higher doses) as the versions he recommends are sulfur-based and can cause all types of weird reactions if you aren't modifying that pathway in the body for some people. I suspect a mutli-thiamine therapy would be wisest, but always titrate the dose. And consider magnesium, potassium, and a B-Complex to prevent issues with this sort of orthomolecular nutritional model.

You're welcome ^_^.

Curious to hear back how the topical application goes?

Thank you Simatta for all your work on this subject...I see possible help here for my daughters ADHD.

 

[Simatta]

Update on this, been using thiamine everyday and it’s been a game changer. Mental/physical energy, verbal fluency, much less depressed and more in the moment. Even my digestion has improved and I can handle carbs much better without crashing, getting gas or looking ‘watery’. Especially over the holidays, I’m definitely burning through carbs like a furnace atm, it’s quite remarkable.

This is really exciting to read ^_^. Keep us updated, and I always encourage people to recognize nothing is always 'up', usually as you upregulate pathways or modify pathways, there will be a series of ups, middling, and downs. With trendings going up in the trajectory of the timeline though.

Thank you Simatta for all your work on this subject...I see possible help here for my daughters ADHD.

You're welcome, I created the following two documents as well. Not sure I should be posting these in other parts of the forum? But here they are in PDF and JPG.

 

[Sergey]

It depends what form. Ttfd(allithiamine) is very potent since most of it is absorbed and it readily crosses the bbb. In that case 1/1 should be good starting point. You will feel even few mgs of it - experiment. The other forms like mononitrate and hcl have maybe 3-5% bioavailability so in that case the ratio would be smaller - something like in Haidut’s Energin would be a good place to start. Also beware of the cofactors for b2 - iodine, selenium and molybdenum. Also for b1 you’ll need magnesium and potassium. I actually stoped ttfd since it fixed most of my problems, but it created some Issues down the line so now I’m using smaller doses of the Hcl form. Be careful with ttfd.

What kind of issues have you got from ttfd?

 

[Sergey]

Thia

Thiamine is a histamine liberator - make sure you get enough b2 egich helps to clear and it antagonises b1.

How does b2 antagonise b1? I can see how b2 helps clearing histamine via mao, but didn’t know it has any effect directly on b1.

Also very interested about b1-histamine link, if you have more information on that. I could only find studies on regional brain variation in histamine content of thiamine deficient rats.

Thank you.

 

[Sergey]

Strange stuff, I can't modify or delete previous post. I meant to say B2 helps clearing *tyramine* via MAO, and tyramine often accompanies histamine. What we call histamine intolerance should probably be named as biogenic amines intolerance.
Still interested in any information about histamine/B2/B1.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Strange stuff, I can't modify or delete previous post. I meant to say B2 helps clearing *tyramine* via MAO, and tyramine often accompanies histamine. What we call histamine intolerance should probably be named as biogenic amine

What kind of issues have you got from ttfd?

I got skin issues resembling b2 and biotin deficiency - angualr chelitis, sebborhoeic dermatitis which currently trying to fix. Higher doses of HCl and mononitrate forms did the same. It also made my histamine tolerance worse and after couple months of using it kind of stopped working - mood issues, fatigue, etc along with the mentioned skin issues. But it fixed most of my worst issues, although I experienced paradox symptoms (worsening of symptoms as described by Derrick Lonsdale) for almost two months. I'm suspecting that I had b2 deficiency to begin with after my chronic IBS so currently experimenting with this protocol: https://b12oils.com/rnb.htm suggested by members of the "Understanding mitochondrial nutrients" facebook group. Facebook Groups Elliot Eon who created the video posted here also active on the page.

 

[Simatta]

I got skin issues resembling b2 and biotin deficiency - angualr chelitis, sebborhoeic dermatitis which currently trying to fix. Higher doses of HCl and mononitrate forms did the same. It also made my histamine tolerance worse and after couple months of using it kind of stopped working - mood issues, fatigue, etc along with the mentioned skin issues. But it fixed most of my worst issues, although I experienced paradox symptoms (worsening of symptoms as described by Derrick Lonsdale) for almost two months. I'm suspecting that I had b2 deficiency to begin with after my chronic IBS so currently experimenting with this protocol: https://b12oils.com/rnb.htm suggested by members of the "Understanding mitochondrial nutrients" facebook group. Facebook Groups Elliot Eon who created the video posted here also active on the page.

Thanks for posting this, this offers valuable insight on the co-factors with these vitamins. I need to create a Primer just on B vitamins, as I lumped a bunch in with each other due to limited space on the last one I made. I hope you get sustainable results with this approach.

Cheers,
Brandon

 

[Blossom]

A new (and good) one from Elliot!

 

[Sergey]

I got skin issues resembling b2 and biotin deficiency - angualr chelitis, sebborhoeic dermatitis which currently trying to fix. Higher doses of HCl and mononitrate forms did the same. It also made my histamine tolerance worse and after couple months of using it kind of stopped working - mood issues, fatigue, etc along with the mentioned skin issues. But it fixed most of my worst issues, although I experienced paradox symptoms (worsening of symptoms as described by Derrick Lonsdale) for almost two months. I'm suspecting that I had b2 deficiency to begin with after my chronic IBS so currently experimenting with this protocol: https://b12oils.com/rnb.htm suggested by members of the "Understanding mitochondrial nutrients" facebook group. Facebook Groups Elliot Eon who created the video posted here also active on the page.

Thank you. I had them in the reverse order, before reading Lonsdale and others on thiamine I experimented a lot with different forms of b12, including those oils and protocol. I remember that freddd on phoenix rising was mentioning angular chelitis among his b12/folate startup symptoms. Not sure, but this could be among his “potassium” symptoms.
I had to stop b12 and last two years trying to solve the b1 riddle. Or whatever riddle it its.
I also get strange issues from b1, even though it does help. Interestingly, I feel the best on relatively small doses of cocarboxylase, not sure why, but 5 mg of it can do what tons or thiamine often can’t. It matches what I read about supplemental thiamine - its blood levels might skyrocket, but TPP only rise like twofold, or something like that.
I could never find a good explanation of this striking TPP effect, it starts after minutes of putting a tablet under tongue. There were few places which mentioned the importance of DHFR for TPP recycling, though without proper explanation. Theoretically supplementation with folinic acid should help in this case. I have asked Lonsdale about it, he was not aware of that link (if there is one).
In general there is a surprising and not very much discussed connection between folate and thiamine, they share transporters, deficiency of one halts metabolism and/or absorption of another etc. Some studies mention that cases of thiamine dependant neuropathy often do not resolve completely until enough folate is made available, despite proper thiamine therapy. So I will not be surprised that folinic acid can help with thiamine related issues, especially if one reacts much better on TPP vs. pure thiamine.
The issue with b1/b12, and probably other b vits supplementation, is that they can drive infections, and this might also be a part of those “paradoxes” around them.
I found a study which clearly shows that candida albicans growth is critically dependant on b12, and has also some partial dependancy on thiamine. Shown this paper to Lonsdale, he wasn’t aware of it before.
Methyl version of B12 can also drastically change the microbiome and promote growth of “not so good” bacteria, at least in fermentation studies. And thiamine is required for growth of virtually all bacteria and fungi.
If you look at anything where b12 is involved, it might be good to have an eye on lithium. No one is able to explain exactly what it does, but it seem to be a critical cofactor in b12/folate methabolism, it kind of pushes them into nervous system etc. Hm, thinking of it, thats what high dose thiamine is supposed to achieve with b1, so maybe lithium is also important there. Of course I mean low dose supplemental lithium, at levels typical for drinking waters, not litium as a medical drug. Yasko has been talking about it for years, but many people don’t take her seriously. And of course anything “methylation” does not have a good rep here.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Thank you. I had them in the reverse order, before reading Lonsdale and others on thiamine I experimented a lot with different forms of b12, including those oils and protocol. I remember that freddd on phoenix rising was mentioning angular chelitis among his b12/folate startup symptoms. Not sure, but this could be among his “potassium” symptoms.
I had to stop b12 and last two years trying to solve the b1 riddle. Or whatever riddle it its.
I also get strange issues from b1, even though it does help. Interestingly, I feel the best on relatively small doses of cocarboxylase, not sure why, but 5 mg of it can do what tons or thiamine often can’t. It matches what I read about supplemental thiamine - its blood levels might skyrocket, but TPP only rise like twofold, or something like that.
I could never find a good explanation of this striking TPP effect, it starts after minutes of putting a tablet under tongue. There were few places which mentioned the importance of DHFR for TPP recycling, though without proper explanation. Theoretically supplementation with folinic acid should help in this case. I have asked Lonsdale about it, he was not aware of that link (if there is one).
In general there is a surprising and not very much discussed connection between folate and thiamine, they share transporters, deficiency of one halts metabolism and/or absorption of another etc. Some studies mention that cases of thiamine dependant neuropathy often do not resolve completely until enough folate is made available, despite proper thiamine therapy. So I will not be surprised that folinic acid can help with thiamine related issues, especially if one reacts much better on TPP vs. pure thiamine.
The issue with b1/b12, and probably other b vits supplementation, is that they can drive infections, and this might also be a part of those “paradoxes” around them.
I found a study which clearly shows that candida albicans growth is critically dependant on b12, and has also some partial dependancy on thiamine. Shown this paper to Lonsdale, he wasn’t aware of it before.
Methyl version of B12 can also drastically change the microbiome and promote growth of “not so good” bacteria, at least in fermentation studies. And thiamine is required for growth of virtually all bacteria and fungi.
If you look at anything where b12 is involved, it might be good to have an eye on lithium. No one is able to explain exactly what it does, but it seem to be a critical cofactor in b12/folate methabolism, it kind of pushes them into nervous system etc. Hm, thinking of it, thats what high dose thiamine is supposed to achieve with b1, so maybe lithium is also important there. Of course I mean low dose supplemental lithium, at levels typical for drinking waters, not litium as a medical drug. Yasko has been talking about it for years, but many people don’t take her seriously. And of course anything “methylation” does not have a good rep here.

Thank you Sergey, very valuable info! As for now my digestion is pretty much Fixed (after almost 3 years of Ibs) except some food intolerances remain - bananas, legumes, whole grains, some nuts, so gonna avoid those. Going to stop thiamine for a few days and see what happens. It’s weird since I’ve tried methyl folate two years sho and it made me anxious And restless and caused my mind to race, but now I tolerate it well. Weird stuff. Also after starting ttfd I had milky urine and burning sensation after urinating which went away later. Oxalate dumping? Had routine urine exam and urine culture which which came back negative. Weird stuff. Cyanocobalamine did nothing. Have yet to try the other forms. Molybdenum caused some pretty intense detox symptoms which went away in a few weeks.