Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) Deficiency: The "Great Imitator" Of Other Illnesses

[Sergey]

Thank you Sergey, very valuable info! As for now my digestion is pretty much Fixed (after almost 3 years of Ibs) except some food intolerances remain - bananas, legumes, whole grains, some nuts, so gonna avoid those. Going to stop thiamine for a few days and see what happens. It’s weird since I’ve tried methyl folate two years sho and it made me anxious And restless and caused my mind to race, but now I tolerate it well. Weird stuff. Also after starting ttfd I had milky urine and burning sensation after urinating which went away later. Oxalate dumping? Had routine urine exam and urine culture which which came back negative. Weird stuff. Cyanocobalamine did nothing. Have yet to try the other forms. Molybdenum caused some pretty intense detox symptoms which went away in a few weeks.

Lonsdale said that folate/b12 often start to decline (like used up properly) after thiamine supplementation. And before that they are often high, so maybe your tolerance of folates improved after normalising thiamine.
I think that all this is not just about normalising thiamine somewhere. It clearly plays a critical role, but we don’t understand the whole picture, and other factors are definitelly involved. Probably even those outside of cellular metabolism.
The more I read about it, the more I have a feeling that thiamine “fixes” something not related to actual thiamine metabolism.
It does have a significant impact on gut flora composition, even in fermentation studies, so its not only related to the immune system normalisation etc. There seem to be states of gut microbiome related to low thiamine levels, and those states are self perpetuating. Various bacterial species and fungi produce thiaminases which not only limit supply to our cells, but also, maybe even more importantly, create quite unhealthy gut engironment.

 

[Texon]

I cannot remember off the top of my head but will see if I can hunt it down. @Amazoniac might know off hand.

B2 riboflavin I believe

 

[Perry Staltic]

I know it's been mentioned before by some, but I know not where to find it. Do higher doses of thiamine cause anyone to not get good sleep? I was taking a B complex (50 mg) along with a multivitamin (100% RDA) and felt weird. I had read that a methyl donor is needed so I added about a gram of TMG. Weirdness went away, but for the last 3 nights I've not slept well. Not bad sleep, just kind of tense and not restful. I don't feel bad when I wake up. I also was taking about 100 mg niacin and 100 mg riboflavin extra.

 

[LucyL]

Just saw this article Something was killing baby salmon. Scientists traced it to a food-web mystery

"As it happened, scientists and hatchery managers around the Great Lakes had observed similar abnormalities in lake trout, beginning in the 1960s. Although it took a few decades, scientists eventually unlocked part of the mystery: The fish had a deficiency of thiamine, or vitamin B1."

 

[charlie]

Just saw this article Something was killing baby salmon. Scientists traced it to a food-web mystery

Thank you for posting!

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

I know it's been mentioned before by some, but I know not where to find it. Do higher doses of thiamine cause anyone to not get good sleep? I was taking a B complex (50 mg) along with a multivitamin (100% RDA) and felt weird. I had read that a methyl donor is needed so I added about a gram of TMG. Weirdness went away, but for the last 3 nights I've not slept well. Not bad sleep, just kind of tense and not restful. I don't feel bad when I wake up. I also was taking about 100 mg niacin and 100 mg riboflavin extra.

Yes. Absolutely. Back off the b1. Do you get palpitations? With b1 you might need extra potassium and magnesium.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Deleted

 

[Perry Staltic]

Yes. Absolutely. Back off the b1. Do you get palpitations? With b1 you might need extra potassium and magnesium.

I did as you said and slept very well last night.

 

[Jem Oz]

Update on this, been using thiamine everyday and it’s been a game changer. Mental/physical energy, verbal fluency, much less depressed and more in the moment. Even my digestion has improved and I can handle carbs much better without crashing, getting gas or looking ‘watery’. Especially over the holidays, I’m definitely burning through carbs like a furnace atm, it’s quite remarkable

Update? Hoping it kept delivering results.

Also a q: did you take 500 mg in one hit? And did you take other b-vits for back up support? Much obliged.

 

[reality]

Update? Hoping it kept delivering results.

Also a q: did you take 500 mg in one hit? And did you take other b-vits for back up support? Much obliged.

It is consistently working for me, although much less pronounced. I think I’ve saturated my stores. Sleep, energy and mental health have all improved. I think I was chronically depleted over the years from certain stressful events and mould exposure (these produce thiamine antagonists), and diets of white rice and even certain supplements (quercetin) that can antagonise thiamine

I take a full b complex in the morning (that does already contain b1 at 100mg), but take the extra b1 during the afternoon with my lunch. I have also experimented taking it with dinner aswell but I think 500 is enough for me

 

[Dr. B]

b6 and b3 will deplete b1

whered you get this,
and does that mean b1 depletes those two as well...
i wonder what the ideal, health promoting combination is for b complex vitamins? all kinds of different formulations some are 11 ratio in all of them

I was just reading how B vitamins can cause obesity:

Excess vitamin intake: An unrecognized risk factor for obesity

"Core tip: B vitamins are a known fat gain promoting factor. Food fortification-induced high vitamin consumption is followed by a rapid increase in obesity prevalence. Why is the fat gain effect of B vitamins neglected in obesity studies? Why does obesity prevalence vary from country to country? Why are the poor in developed countries but the rich in developing countries at high risk of obesity? Why is obesity prevalence higher in blacks than whites in the United States? Why does formula feeding (which is associated with high energy expenditure) increase the risk for obesity? Why is physical inactivity associated with increased obesity risk? This paper reviews the role of excess vitamins in obesity and proposes a unified answer to these questions."

why/how do b vitamins cause fat gain @redsun

 

[Dr. B]

It is consistently working for me, although much less pronounced. I think I’ve saturated my stores. Sleep, energy and mental health have all improved. I think I was chronically depleted over the years from certain stressful events and mould exposure (these produce thiamine antagonists), and diets of white rice and even certain supplements (quercetin) that can antagonise thiamine

I take a full b complex in the morning (that does already contain b1 at 100mg), but take the extra b1 during the afternoon with my lunch. I have also experimented taking it with dinner aswell but I think 500 is enough for me

mate whered you read about the mold and quercetin inhibiting antagonizing thiamine... that is just concerning now isnt it in orange juice
many supplements include some quercetin...

 

[ddjd]

whered you get this,
and does that mean b1 depletes those two as well...
i wonder what the ideal, health promoting combination is for b complex vitamins? all kinds of different formulations some are 11 ratio in all of them

in my experience b1 is the safest to take long term and regularly, followed closely by b3 in niacinamide form. b6 heavy supplementation seems to have some real side effects, particularly in the hydrochloride form, only take b6p5p every now and again in my opinion

 

[redsun]

whered you get this,
and does that mean b1 depletes those two as well...
i wonder what the ideal, health promoting combination is for b complex vitamins? all kinds of different formulations some are 11 ratio in all of them


why/how do b vitamins cause fat gain @redsun

It doesnt. It can increase metabolism, improve digestive secretions and speed up the use of sugars so you may want to eat more because of that but as long as your not going over your calorie needs you cannot gain fat. You may have more protein hunger on it but if you reach for higher fat proteins instead of lower fat ones, or dont even eat more protein you will stay hungry and eat more as a result.

Zinc does the same, it will improve digestion, increase metabolism but for zinc your hunger will not be satisfied unless you eat more total protein.

 

[Dr. B]

It doesnt. It can increase metabolism, improve digestive secretions and speed up the use of sugars so you may want to eat more because of that but as long as your not going over your calorie needs you cannot gain fat. You may have more protein hunger on it but if you reach for higher fat proteins instead of lower fat ones, or dont even eat more protein you will stay hungry and eat more as a result.

Zinc does the same, it will improve digestion, increase metabolism but for zinc your hunger will not be satisfied unless you eat more total protein.

ah interesting...
although zinc could reduce digestion/metabolism if you take enough to where copper/iron are too displaced? ive been wary supplementing zinc due to that. the copper/iron depletion.. i get a half gallon milk a day which is 10mg zinc or so, then an ounce liver a day, and ground beef around a half pound once a week so idk if i should supplement zinc mate.

but there are some substances which can in fact alter your calories out equation? for instance if something slows your metabolism you could start gaining weight despite eating the same numerical calorie amount...

do you know about the interactions/imbalances between different b vitamins. like if you're dosing 100mg or whatever of thiamine hcl, how much of the other b vitamins need to be consumed?
are you saying thiamine will improve digestive secretions, I imagine this is specific to the hcl form? any idea as to how much HCL or chloride would be present with 10mg thiamine hcl...

 

[sunny]

I took one thiamax two mornings in a row and now have a sore throat, runny nose, head cold. Connected? Coincidence? Last year I ordered a bottle and took one a day until gone - I don't remember anything remarkable at that time.

 

[Peatness]

From this thiamax website

For first time users who consider themselves sensitive to supplements:

• Start with half or quarter of a capsule per day by emptying half of the capsule contents into a small glass of water.
• Increase the dose every three or four days until you reach one full capsule.

With thiamine symptoms usually feel worse at first

With Thiamine Paradox Symptoms Patience Is Key - Hormones Matter

When thiamine is reintroduced and things get turned back on, your body goes haywire until the chemistry can normalize.

www.hormonesmatter.com

 

[Peatness]

Read before eating ze bugs

African Seasonal Ataxia (ASA) is another interesting recently described clinical
entity which presumably has a thiamine-related foundation. This syndrome has
been recently described in people who live in Western Nigeria and is characterized
by ataxia, tremors, and decreased levels of consciousness. These symptoms occur
during the rainy season of July through October. ASA usually follows a large carbohydrate
meal. At its peak incidence, ASA can account for well over 70% of hospital
and clinic admissions.
Various hypotheses have been advanced to explain ASA; however, strong evidence
supports a mechanism related to thiamine deficiency. There is a clinical triad
of cerebellar ataxia, ocular disturbances, and encephalopathy usually seen in acute
thiamine deficiency. Upon examination of the dietary intake of the low socioeconomic
strata of patients, it was found that almost all had consumed significant
amounts of roasted silkworm larvae Anaphe venata. The availability of these larvae
in the marketplace corresponds to the rainy season. The larvae represent a valuable
protein source for rainforest people.
The practice of entomophagy in low socioeconomic cultures is accepted. Protein
sources are relatively scarce for these people, who subsist largely on carbohydraterich
diets. Subsequently, it has been shown that there is a thiaminase present in the
Anaphe venata larvae. During the rainy season, these larvae fall from specific trees,
and are gathered and sold in markets. Subsequent consumption of larvae containing
a thiaminase by people ordinarily eating carbohydrate-rich diets can explain the
rapid onset of symptoms resembling those of thiamine deficiency. As a corollary
to this recent description are earlier descriptions of similar outbreaks of thiamine
deficiency. There was, for example, the outbreak of the so-called Chastek paralysis,
a disorder of silver foxes on a fox ranch in Minnesota. These foxes were fed raw
fish and within a few weeks developed ataxia, changes in consciousness, seizures,
and death. Pathologically, brain lesions resembled those seen in thiamine deficiency.
Subsequent work showed the presence of a thiaminase in the viscera of the raw fish,
which had precipitated the disorder.
Inherited ataxias are a group of relatively rare neurological disorders genetically
transmitted, which have as a common denominator ataxia and the possibility of
successful thiamine treatment. These diverse, yet related ataxias include Refsum’s
disease and Friedreich’s ataxia. This group of disorders has a defect in the enzyme
pyruvate decarboxylase. Pathologically, these disorders show mitochondrial damage
in selective brain regions. Treatment regimes include thiamine and ketonic diet therapies.

Source

Preface

Thiamine Deficiency and Clinical Disorders By David W McCandless

 

[Peater]

Read before eating ze bugs

African Seasonal Ataxia (ASA) is another interesting recently described clinical
entity which presumably has a thiamine-related foundation. This syndrome has
been recently described in people who live in Western Nigeria and is characterized
by ataxia, tremors, and decreased levels of consciousness. These symptoms occur
during the rainy season of July through October. ASA usually follows a large carbohydrate
meal. At its peak incidence, ASA can account for well over 70% of hospital
and clinic admissions.
Various hypotheses have been advanced to explain ASA; however, strong evidence
supports a mechanism related to thiamine deficiency. There is a clinical triad
of cerebellar ataxia, ocular disturbances, and encephalopathy usually seen in acute
thiamine deficiency. Upon examination of the dietary intake of the low socioeconomic
strata of patients, it was found that almost all had consumed significant
amounts of roasted silkworm larvae Anaphe venata. The availability of these larvae
in the marketplace corresponds to the rainy season. The larvae represent a valuable
protein source for rainforest people.
The practice of entomophagy in low socioeconomic cultures is accepted. Protein
sources are relatively scarce for these people, who subsist largely on carbohydraterich
diets. Subsequently, it has been shown that there is a thiaminase present in the
Anaphe venata larvae. During the rainy season, these larvae fall from specific trees,
and are gathered and sold in markets. Subsequent consumption of larvae containing
a thiaminase by people ordinarily eating carbohydrate-rich diets can explain the
rapid onset of symptoms resembling those of thiamine deficiency. As a corollary
to this recent description are earlier descriptions of similar outbreaks of thiamine
deficiency. There was, for example, the outbreak of the so-called Chastek paralysis,
a disorder of silver foxes on a fox ranch in Minnesota. These foxes were fed raw
fish and within a few weeks developed ataxia, changes in consciousness, seizures,
and death. Pathologically, brain lesions resembled those seen in thiamine deficiency.
Subsequent work showed the presence of a thiaminase in the viscera of the raw fish,
which had precipitated the disorder.
Inherited ataxias are a group of relatively rare neurological disorders genetically
transmitted, which have as a common denominator ataxia and the possibility of
successful thiamine treatment. These diverse, yet related ataxias include Refsum’s
disease and Friedreich’s ataxia. This group of disorders has a defect in the enzyme
pyruvate decarboxylase. Pathologically, these disorders show mitochondrial damage
in selective brain regions. Treatment regimes include thiamine and ketonic diet therapies.

Source

Preface

Thiamine Deficiency and Clinical Disorders By David W McCandless

Wow, that's incredible information thanks.

 

[Dr. B]

From this thiamax website

For first time users who consider themselves sensitive to supplements:

• Start with half or quarter of a capsule per day by emptying half of the capsule contents into a small glass of water.
• Increase the dose every three or four days until you reach one full capsule.

With thiamine symptoms usually feel worse at first

With Thiamine Paradox Symptoms Patience Is Key - Hormones Matter

When thiamine is reintroduced and things get turned back on, your body goes haywire until the chemistry can normalize.

www.hormonesmatter.com

can you get enough thiamine from grass fed pasteurized milk? also with cane sugar it has fructose, do you still need thiamine to process fructose since it metabolizes differently from glucose. im wondering about lactose too.
high dose thiamine seems to cause issues like hair loss