Troubleshooting Manual, When "RP Diet" Doesn't Seem To Work As Expected?

[scarlettsmum]

I was wondering whether a post for people new to this forum may be useful to be visible as Peat's general guidelines are. The temptation for people (including myself) is to jump in head first and there have been reports of unwanted side effects, so it may be wise to have some sort of "warning"? By unwanted side effects I mean, weight gain, fatty liver, diabetes, etc.
After reading and following lots of posts on this forum I have only now learnt from Haidut about how "RP diet" may be excellent for those with healthy livers already, but perhaps not always great for those who don't have good liver health to start with, as it can't cope with processing all the extra sugar. Tyw also made a post about being conservative with fructose. I think this info needs to be visible to all. Perhaps it should say something along the lines that people should have their liver tested first or perhaps judge by their ability to handle coffee/alcohol/sugar?
Maybe it could also point people towards eating more starch, rather than fearing it, in place of some of the sugar, whilst getting their liver in order, perhaps to boiled starch (to be more specific), as in the post by westsidepufas (McCarbthyism), since it seems to agree with some people on the forum, who otherwise don't do so well eliminating starch from their diet. I am not saying that this is what everyone should do, but it could be made into sort of like a troubleshooting manual.
I am probably generalising here, but I also think it is evident from successful testimonials that younger people, under 30 years, seem to fare much better jumping straight in compared to those over 30, who seem to need to take more thorough/drastic approach and fix their liver first.

I just know that it would have been immensely helpful to me if I had known about this earlier, perhaps saving me from putting on weight and having elevated liver enzyme.

 

[Kasper]

Yeah, I feel like a manual like that would be great.

 

[Blossom]

I think that's a great idea too @scarlettsmum. Maybe a dedicated thread like this one would be a good place to start compiling information until we figure out as a forum how to proceed?

 

[heartnhands]

I was wondering whether a post for people new to this forum may be useful to be visible as Peat's general guidelines are. The temptation for people (including myself) is to jump in head first and there have been reports of unwanted side effects, so it may be wise to have some sort of "warning"? By unwanted side effects I mean, weight gain, fatty liver, diabetes, etc.
After reading and following lots of posts on this forum I have only now learnt from Haidut about how "RP diet" may be excellent for those with healthy livers already, but perhaps not always great for those who don't have good liver health to start with, as it can't cope with processing all the extra sugar. Tyw also made a post about being conservative with fructose. I think this info needs to be visible to all. Perhaps it should say something along the lines that people should have their liver tested first or perhaps judge by their ability to handle coffee/alcohol/sugar?
Maybe it could also point people towards eating more starch, rather than fearing it, in place of some of the sugar, whilst getting their liver in order, perhaps to boiled starch (to be more specific), as in the post by westsidepufas (McCarbthyism), since it seems to agree with some people on the forum, who otherwise don't do so well eliminating starch from their diet. I am not saying that this is what everyone should do, but it could be made into sort of like a troubleshooting manual.
I am probably generalising here, but I also think it is evident from successful testimonials that younger people, under 30 years, seem to fare much better jumping straight in compared to those over 30, who seem to need to take more thorough/drastic approach and fix their liver first.

I just know that it would have been immensely helpful to me if I had known about this earlier, perhaps saving me from putting on weight and having elevated liver enzyme.

Sounds great to me.
It would be great! If anyone knows of any particular liver symptoms that have been noticed as indicative of degrees of slow processing or improvements I'd be most grateful.

 

[heartnhands]

Before all the Thyroid diagnosis I was always a size 2 or maybe 6 and felt very comfortable in my body.
The symptoms of joint pain have been relieved by the extra calcium, vitamin D, A, K.
My major discomfort is that I always feel like something is trying to escape from the base of my sternum and I very often have a kind of mild nausea.
I'm currently a size 14 which is extremely uncomfortable, but I'm willing to get things working well before considering the extra weight a focus.

 

[Dessert_All_Day]

First tip that comes to my mind: DO NOT drink too many fluids (3 staples of Peatarians are milk, OJ, and coffee), especially if you aren't having a lot of salt. I speak from experience; I had a scary amount of edema in the form of stomach bloating when I first started. And this is particularly dangerous because the mainstream advice of how to get rid of this condition is to have even less salt, which makes it worse, and happens to be the opposite of what Peat recommends for treating edema.

 

[heartnhands]

First tip that comes to my mind: DO NOT drink too many fluids (3 staples of Peatarians are milk, OJ, and coffee), especially if you aren't having a lot of salt. I speak from experience; I had a scary amount of edema in the form of stomach bloating when I first started. And this is particularly dangerous because the mainstream advice of how to get rid of this condition is to have even less salt, which makes it worse, and happens to be the opposite of what Peat recommends for treating edema.

Being that I have very large varicose veins I'm usually aware of any extra adema. In the morning when I usually eat one or two hard boiled eggs I dip them in salt so that there is a little layer over %50 of the egg surface and when I set up a drink before bed like mild or allow water I usually add a little honey and a pinch of salt. Being that I remember something about big gulps being a cortisol stimulant I take little sips rather than gulps. Once a day I'll drink a cane sugar cola, a coffee, fresh squeezed oJ, and milk. I keep some Great Lakes Geleton in the fridge and have a few pieces throughout the day. At this point I'm so wanting to relieve any bloat that I have less than 4oz of fleshy meat/day. Protein in the form of Gelatin, eggs, broth, and a few oz of beef, liver, shrimp, or oysters seems like plenty.

Any other suggestions? I'm all ears!

 

[Ukall]

That's an brilliant idea! Since I am pretty newbie here, when I read people having more problems than before, I must be honest with you, I feel kinda scared to start "Peating".
I think people want to have fast results (everyone wants that, of course), but then, they start bulging supplements and eating a lot without knowing what their body can afford and what they are really aiming for. When a person wants to get better health, I am 99% sure that he won't read and hear everything that exists about Ray Peat. And I know that we should read and hear everything what Peat has said, but not everyone can understand clearly what his ideas consist. If someone doesn't have a background knowledge, they can't simply understand it, I speak for myself. That person wants shortcuts (this forum). And start "Peating" like that, that person, yes, may be lucky and have good results, or, unfortunately, it may end in a disaster.

Not only that, I find very awkward when I am reading a thread and in the same forum, where all people are supposedly following Ray Peat's ideas, and yet, there are still very different points of view (for example, starch vs sugar, some fish vs no fish, fiber vs no fiber, etc). It turns out very confusing: how much "Ray Peats" are there after all?

 

[heartnhands]

That's an brilliant idea! Since I am pretty newbie here, when I read people having more problems than before, I must be honest with you, I feel kinda scared to start "Peating".
I think people want to have fast results (everyone wants that, of course), but then, they start bulging supplements and eating a lot without knowing what their body can afford and what they are really aiming for. When a person wants to get better health, I am 99% sure that he won't read and hear everything that exists about Ray Peat. And I know that we should read and hear everything what Peat has said, but not everyone can understand clearly what his ideas consist. If someone doesn't have a background knowledge, they can't simply understand it, I speak for myself. That person wants shortcuts (this forum). And start "Peating" like that, that person, yes, may be lucky and have good results, or, unfortunately, it may end in a disaster.

Not only that, I find very awkward when I am reading a thread and in the same forum, where all people are supposedly following Ray Peat's ideas, and yet, there are still very different points of view (for example, starch vs sugar, some fish vs no fish, fiber vs no fiber, etc). It turns out very confusing: how much "Ray Peats" are there after all?

Ukall....The Prime directive of any of this is to do your own research and don't look for others to give you the answers. Of course everyone is very helpful and supportive but thinking that others process is going to be yours is way off the responsibility train and prety much a road to " learned helplessness".

Forgive me please if this seems odd or insensitive.

 

[Ukall]

Ukall....The Prime directive of any of this is to do your own research and don't look for others to give you the answers. Of course everyone is very helpful and supportive but thinking that others process is going to be yours is way off the responsibility train and prety much a road to " learned helplessness".

Forgive me please if this seems odd or insensitive.

You are not being insensitive at all, you are just describing the truth. You say that, but you must recognize that reading, searching and essentially understanding, it is not a fast process. When people are on despair, they just want to get better as soon as possible. I think if this wasn't the case, maybe there won't be unsuccessful stories.
That's why this idea might be useful to people that are a little lost. Maybe they can start reconsidering if the first light that appears, it is really the best light to follow.

 

[DaveFoster]

You don't need to do the OJ and milk thing. You just need to limit PUFA, inflammatory aminos, stress, and eat for a high metabolic rate. Some need supplements, some don't.

Most of Peat's supplements are generally protective. Coffee is widely consumed, aspirin given to heart patients, niacinamide widley used to treat acne (which is implicated in other problems of cellular energy), and salt has been shown to significantly reduce mortality in coronary artery events. Vitamin A, D, E, and K are generally known to be beneficial, particularly by the WAP foundation.

 

[Kasper]

@Ukall

This may be a good starter for beginners:
http://eastwesthealing.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/SRM.pdf

 

[EIRE24]

You don't need to do the OJ and milk thing. You just need to limit PUFA, inflammatory aminos, stress, and eat for a high metabolic rate. Some need supplements, some don't.

Most of Peat's supplements are generally protective. Coffee is widely consumed, aspirin given to heart patients, niacinamide widley used to treat acne (which is implicated in other problems of cellular energy), and salt has been shown to significantly reduce mortality in coronary artery events. Vitamin A, D, E, and K are generally known to be beneficial, particularly by the WAP foundation.

What does niacinamide do for acne?

 

[DaveFoster]

What does niacinamide do for acne?

Quite a bit. Topical application is ideal.

Niacinamide protects against cytotoxicity, and protects against cancer cells (apoptosis) while encouraging normal cell divison.

I recommend his rosacea article:

"Niacinamide, one of the B vitamins, provides energy to this mitochondrial system. Under stress and strong excitation, cells waste niacinamide-NADH, but niacinamide itself has a sedative antiexcitatory effect, and some of its actions resemble a hormone. Estrogen tends to interfere with the formation of niacin from tryptophan. Tryptophan, rather than forming the sedative niacin (pyridine carboxylic acid), can be directed toward formation of the excitatory quinolinic acid (pyridine dicarboxylic acid) by polyunsaturated fatty acids. Excitation must be in balance with a cell's energetic resources, and niacinamide can play multiple protective roles, decreasing excitation, increasing energy production, and stabilizing repair systems. The state of excitation and type of energy metabolism are crucial factors in governing cell functions and survival."

He compares the problems with skin conditions to, for example, fibrosis.

 

[Tarmander]

Ray is actually pretty straight forward in his advice and does a good job bottom lining it in interviews and such. It can pretty much be summed up as eating as many carbs as you healthily can. I think you could create a plan for yourself without ever coming to this forum.

However a lot of people want to make a smooth transition and not gain weight from carbs, hence all the supplement experimentation. but you can skip all that if you want.

 

[Ukall]

It can pretty much be summed up as eating as many carbs as you healthily can.

That's pretty ambiguous in my opinion. I came from IF and I literally don't feel hungry like I used to.
So I can pretty much binge eating and still feel like I am not satisfied (like I used to). It's really weird. But this can lead easily to overeating.

 

[Tarmander]

That's pretty ambiguous in my opinion. I came from IF and I literally don't feel hungry like I used to.
So I can pretty much binge eating and still feel like I am not satisfied (like I used to). It's really weird. But this can lead easily to overeating.

Okay, forget the heathy part, just as many carbs as you can

 

[DaveFoster]

As for carbs, white sugar makes a good filler. With my metabolism, I can easily burn 8000 calories per day. I need at least 4000 to feel human. 6000 makes me feel okay.

When you deplete PUFA, you increase thyroid function. I talked to Ray, and he said that to break the cycle of stress, a lot of times you can just drink a large milkshake (milk + sugar).

 

[EIRE24]

Quite a bit. Topical application is ideal.

Niacinamide protects against cytotoxicity, and protects against cancer cells (apoptosis) while encouraging normal cell divison.

I recommend his rosacea article:

"Niacinamide, one of the B vitamins, provides energy to this mitochondrial system. Under stress and strong excitation, cells waste niacinamide-NADH, but niacinamide itself has a sedative antiexcitatory effect, and some of its actions resemble a hormone. Estrogen tends to interfere with the formation of niacin from tryptophan. Tryptophan, rather than forming the sedative niacin (pyridine carboxylic acid), can be directed toward formation of the excitatory quinolinic acid (pyridine dicarboxylic acid) by polyunsaturated fatty acids. Excitation must be in balance with a cell's energetic resources, and niacinamide can play multiple protective roles, decreasing excitation, increasing energy production, and stabilizing repair systems. The state of excitation and type of energy metabolism are crucial factors in governing cell functions and survival."

He compares the problems with skin conditions to, for example, fibrosis.

Interesting to read that. I've had skin problems since coming to peat. Not sure if it's because I'm too low in fat as in dietary fat or something else? I've tried the vitamin A thing and doesn't make much of a difference. Could even make it worse

 

[tyw]

Philosophy time

IMO, there are 2 core tenets to this thing we call the "Peat Diet":

(1) Avoid stressful foods -- with PUFA being the most commonly consumed and generic stressor.
(2) Increase metabolic fuel -- in general, this will revolve around glucose, galactose, and fructose intake

----

Number (1) is usually more important than (2), and definitely more important if one is coming from an energetically compromised state.

"Stressful foods" refer to anything at all that you do not tolerate at all, be it gluten, lectins (eg: from potatoes), casein (dairy, and especially A1 casein), etc ....

PUFA is unique in that they are a class of compounds that provide a universal "slow down mechanism" at all levels of the body -- everything from low level mitochondrial dynamics, where chronic PUFA incorporation into mitochondrial membranes reduce ECT flow, and all the way up to higher-level .

PUFA are necessary for function, but dietary PUFA almost always exceeds requirements. Avoiding dietary PUFA as best as possible then becomes key.

Again, removal of stressful food items takes precedence over increases in metabolic fuel.

In the real world, my friend PaleoOsteo finds it much more effective to tell generally-nutritionally-clueless clients to do a "ketogenic diet", which basically means cutting out all the common items that lead to stress. It tends to be much easier (psychologically speaking) for people to cut PUFA-rich processed foods when asked to "go ketogenic". A lot of the PUFA-rich foods that most people eat tend to be viewed as "carb sources" -- chips, donuts, pastries, etc ...

Some care needs to be given to "fat sources" that are high PUFA -- example: peanut butter, and sometimes people use margarine. But in general, starting with a low carb approach, and then adding carbohydrate sources in, seems to be the easiest way for the nutritionally-illiterate to get started with this approach.

This usually leads to weight loss and general feelings of wellness. Again, the main factor here is that they are so inflammed to begin with, and are usually overweight and therefore releasing a lot of FFA to begin with. Reduction in further dietary stress is the biggest factor in this state.

We do this until some excess fat is lost, and the person is feeling a little better (this is best judged by a good health practitioner). This can take anywhere from a few weeks, to 6 months.

Then we start adding carbs. It can be as easily and moderate as saying, "OK, now you can have your cup of Fruit Juice in the morning and another piece of fruit during the day". Usually this also comes with, "we'll get you back on your steak and potatoes in a couple of weeks when things get better again"

Keeping things easy becomes important in this scenario. For example, a list of "allowed fat sources" needs to be kept as short as possible, and ideally as specific as possible. Something like:

- Butter
- Coconut oil
- Beef
- Lamb
- only lean fish

and nothing else, is much easier than saying, "avoid PUFA". Olive oil may be a not-ideal but affordable concession at this point.

This is the approach of "High fat first, then add carbs".

----

In the opposite case, like myself, who already had knowledge of all the biochemistry at hand, and who was 24 years old, a more aggressive template may be taken. In my case, it was a calorie-controlled (to whatever I knew was my maintenance caloric intake), and pretty high carb diet (< 10% fat).

IMO, this opposite approach is best done with fat intake at 10% or lower, and without excess calories to begin with. The low fat intake is to bias the Randle effect to carbohydrate metabolism. The controlled calories is to ease the metabolic adaptation to the new diet (processing a lot of carbohydrate still requires some switch over in enzyme and hormone levels, which can take anywhere from a few days, to weeks).

After a comfort level has been reached, then we decide if we want to add more carbs and/or fat.

This is the approach of "High carb first, then add fat"

----

As for "Metabolic Supplements", these are aimed towards point (2). I've made my prior opinion that "Good' supplements are "training wheels for the metabolism" -- Is There Any Reason For Me To Take Aspirin?

IMO, if the person is willing to try some of these, then they can and should be used as soon as possible. Test and identify which supplements work the best, and then stick to those.

You do not want to throw multiple supplements with possible interfering side effects at a person who is just starting out trying to regain their health. A good practitioner can guess which supplements work best for a client (based on lab tests, symptom analysis, or otherwise), though some supplements like Pregnenolone and/or Progesterone are almost always helpful, and never harmful. The same goes for low does Aspirin (higher doses, above say 300-400mg a day, require experimentation)

Sidenote: other supplements like K2 MK4, Vit E, can potentially lead to side effects depending on the person's condition. These require specific experimentation. Even Niacinamide may not be needed or properly handled in the beginning (perhaps due to mucked up enzyme kinematics regarding the machinery needed to transport niacinamide into mitochondria where it becomes useful)​

.....