Would You Be Interested In A Choline Supplement?

[Amazoniac]

Many people don't consume dairy and eggs (which are great sources of choline) due to intolerance/allergy, for not being able to find reliables ones, and/or for not finding them appealing. Some meats provide a considerable amount, but they're not eaten in sufficient quantities. Organ meats can be good sources but aren't consumed frequently enough, so we can disconsider them.

So a low choline intake isn't unlikely. To add to the problem:

• Plenty of fructose
• Saturated fat in generous amounts
• Methionine restriction
  
• Low creatine (muscle meats)
• Not enough vegetables
• High-dose B-vitamins supplementation
• Impair'd liver and metabolism in general
  
• Estrogen artificially lowered
• Extraordinary needs

There's nothing inherently wrong with most of these, but it's a synergistic program to increase the choline requirement.

And then you'll find subset of people avoiding even leafy greens due to the poison/"vitamin" A issue, so sources become scarce.

- Incomprehensive/ble Notes On Choline
- Meeting the Choline Requirement — Eggs, Organs, and the Wheat Paradox | Mito
- Consuming Creatine in Foods and Supplements | Mito

Therefore I suspect that having a decent choline supplement available for the community is something reasonable.


As far as I know, phosphatidylcholine is the least problematic form, but the choline supplements available are sourced from seeds and are often of poor quality.

The fatty acids attached to phosphatidylcholine are changed when metabolized, so it's possible for the fatty acid profile of a meal to be reflected in the phosphatidylcholine molecule to some extent when incorporated. This is an argument in favor of using any phosphatidylcholine ester, but if it's polyunsaturated, there would be an unecessary exposure to these fats in a weight ratio of about 1:8. As an example, for every 0.2 g of choline, it's an obtention of 1.6 g of PUFAs with the risk of these being incorporated where they shouldn't (hence Zeus using phosphatidylcholine as a carrier for fatty acids) and also adding up over time.

Zeus' Mitolipin would be ideal if it wasn't for the price and volume: it's clearly not intended to be a choline supplement.

200 mg/serving lasting 2 months or so is what I had in mind; it's a moderate dose that was found to be the average missing from people's diet. This is physically possible since the serving of lecithin products is 2.5 g, whereas such product would be less than 2 g.
Mitolipin provides less than 30 mg/serving, a bottle would last 5 days to supply that amount.


- Storage & Handling of Lipids | Avanti Lipids

"Lipids composed of fatty acids that are completely saturated (e.g., dimyristoyl or dipalmitoyl phosphatidylcholine) are stable as powders."

"Lipids composed of fatty acids containing one or more double bonds (e.g., dioleoyl phosphatidylcholine or egg phosphatidylcholine) are not stable as powders. These lipids are extremely hygroscopic as powders and will quickly absorb moisture and become gummy upon opening the container. This could result in hydrolysis or oxidation of the material."​

How could conservative doses of it used as part of a complex be more problematic than a prolonged insufficiency? We can't ignore that its lack isn't something rare in this community.

If you have an object, please post.
By the way, I don't know why a 'No' alternative was included since it's about having enough people interested, and too many 'nitric oxide synthases' give an impression that it's not worth it.

--
@haidut @healthnatura @LifeGivingStore @Terma

 

[Fetch]

bump

 

[methylenewhite]

I would. I take Natures's Way Choline. 500mg of choline bitartrate per tab.

 

[yerrag]

Thanks for the explanation Amazoniac. I have eggs daily and a glass or two of milk. I also eat cooked green leaves regularly. In fact it's the only vegetable I eat these days. Also eat organ meats as I make an effort to find them, and cooking them isn't difficult. But I still limit organ meat intake, as I feel a lack of energy when I eat them frequently, and when I do, I take some vitamin D to balance out the vitamin A in them. But I had no idea there's choline in them, so it's nice that it helps to meet my choline requirements.

Recently did a liver panel and it looks like I aced it. Well, except that my liver enzymes SGPT and SGOT are around 30 U/L. They're still within normal range (not that normal range is a good basis), and at the high end of optimal range. I would prefer that they be at around 12, which were values I had years ago, when they meant nothing. Then again, it may not be for lack of choline that the values increased, but for other reasons such as arterial plaque (in the liver it would be capillary plaque).

Since I once made my own liposomal C and ingested it, I know the effect of Phosphatidylcholine that comes with PUFAs in the lecithin that PC comes with. The first time I tried my liposomal C, I was hungry the whole night and couldn't even sleep a wink. I think it's the PUFA that just messed my sugar absorption and caused my blood sugar to fall from the insulin reaction coming out of high blood sugar, the result of unused and unabsorbed blood sugar. So, unless I really have to, I'm not eager to get PC into my system if it comes with the trojan horse PUFA.

Or, was it the PC that was the trojan horse?

 

[Amazoniac]

Thanks for the explanation Amazoniac. I have eggs daily and a glass or two of milk. I also eat cooked green leaves regularly. In fact it's the only vegetable I eat these days. Also eat organ meats as I make an effort to find them, and cooking them isn't difficult. But I still limit organ meat intake, as I feel a lack of energy when I eat them frequently, and when I do, I take some vitamin D to balance out the vitamin A in them. But I had no idea there's choline in them, so it's nice that it helps to meet my choline requirements.

Recently did a liver panel and it looks like I aced it. Well, except that my liver enzymes SGPT and SGOT are around 30 U/L. They're still within normal range (not that normal range is a good basis), and at the high end of optimal range. I would prefer that they be at around 12, which were values I had years ago, when they meant nothing. Then again, it may not be for lack of choline that the values increased, but for other reasons such as arterial plaque (in the liver it would be capillary plaque).

Since I once made my own liposomal C and ingested it, I know the effect of Phosphatidylcholine that comes with PUFAs in the lecithin that PC comes with. The first time I tried my liposomal C, I was hungry the whole night and couldn't even sleep a wink. I think it's the PUFA that just messed my sugar absorption and caused my blood sugar to fall from the insulin reaction coming out of high blood sugar, the result of unused and unabsorbed blood sugar. So, unless I really have to, I'm not eager to get PC into my system if it comes with the trojan horse PUFA.

Or, was it the PC that was the trojan horse?

Lecithin products provide a lot of junk (especially those that aren't concentrated) and often little phosphatidylcholine, even less so the actual choline.

Here's an example:

Spoiler: Oversized image

A 15-g serving provides more than 5 g of process'd PUFA, 3450 mg of phosphatidylcholine and only 450 mg of choline (it's low considering the serving).

I'm not familiar with such preparation, but it seems to involve blending and heating the lecithin, right? If so, this can't be good given its usual fats. If not, there's still the same concern with fish oils, and in the document above they noted that these phospholipids are unstable depending on the composition. There's some vitamin E, but I'm not sure if it's enough. Since it's a great carrier, either way it could be distributing oxidized products throughout the body. On the choline thread it was posted that fat-soluble forms of choline are metabolized differently.

It's easier to obtain plenty of the phosphatidylcholine form at once from diet, so we must be better adapted to process it in greater quantities.

- Incomprehensive/ble Notes On Choline

- 1.25 quarts of milch provide you about 200 mg of choline (mostly as glycerophosphocholine).
- 2 medium eggs provide you the same amount (mostly as phosphatidylcholine).

The highest amount of glycerophosphocholine is found in beef liver, giving you about 80 mg/100 g, yet it's common to eat less than this.​

The water-soluble forms is broken-down first, release the choline and other molecules. The cheap forms tend to be fermented in the intestines, so they're not worth it; I would still favor choline chloride over bitartrate. Others is supplemented by people who wants to stimulate brain activity through acetylcholine formation and the products of digestion. So it seems preferable to favor phosphatidylcholine, with the advantage that its metabolism is less elaborate if needed for structural purposes and serving as a reserve for other functions when needed.

 

[yerrag]

Lecithin products provide a lot of junk (especially those that aren't concentrated) and often little phosphatidylcholine, even less so the actual choline.

I used the high-PC lecithin, which isn't easy to source out. But still, no worky for me.

Eggs and milk and the occasional goat liver is my preference. If I need more choline, I'm glad there's the tablet forms such as bitartrate. Or choline chloride.

 

[SB4]

The water-soluble forms is broken-down first, release the choline and other molecules. The cheap forms tend to be fermented in the intestines, so they're not worth it; I would still favor choline chloride over bitartrate.

Could you remind me what is wrong with the bitartrate form?

I recently tried upping choline with sunflower lecithin but I am pretty sure it gave me diarrhea. My ALT liver enzymes have been elevated the last 2 tests I have had.

 

[Amazoniac]

I used the high-PC lecithin, which isn't easy to source out. But still, no worky for me.

Eggs and milk and the occasional goat liver is my preference. If I need more choline, I'm glad there's the tablet forms such as bitartrate. Or choline chloride.

Yeah, 2.3 g PC (above) compared to 4 g PC/10 g lecithin. No doubt an improvement, but still not good enough.
I wasn't implying that you don't get enough choline from diet, it seems like you do.

@Goat-e - Enemy. Attack.

Could you remind me what is wrong with the bitartrate form?

I recently tried upping choline with sunflower lecithin but I am pretty sure it gave me diarrhea. My ALT liver enzymes have been elevated the last 2 tests I have had.

- Masterjohn Right? Treating Fatty Liver (last part)

You'll find on the next page a claim that phosphatidylcholine is better adsorbed than other forms.

 

[SB4]

@Amazoniac Thanks. Would guru think that choline chloride would potential skirt that bacterial fermentation issues that phosphatidylcholine could be causing?

I have heard gut bacteria "feed" on choline. Does that mean they feed on the actual molecule or the things attached to it?

Also what would be wrong with buying choline chloride online? Seems fairly cheap.

 

[baccheion]

Alpha-GPC. It's also not as likely to be consumed by intestinal bacteria.

 

[SB4]

Alpha-GPC. It's also not as likely to be consumed by intestinal bacteria.

Interesting. Could you point me in the direction of how intestinal bacteria consume choline? Is there any studies or similar?

 

[haidut]

Many people don't consume dairy and eggs (which are great sources of choline) due to intolerance/allergy, for not being able to find reliables ones, and/or for not finding them appealing. Some meats provide a considerable amount, but they're not eaten in sufficient quantities. Organ meats can be good sources but aren't consumed frequently enough, so we can disconsider them.

So a low choline intake isn't unlikely. To add to the problem:

• Plenty of fructose
• Saturated fat in generous amounts
• Methionine restriction
  
• Low creatine (muscle meats)
• Not enough vegetables
• High-dose B-vitamins supplementation
• Impair'd liver and metabolism in general
  
• Estrogen artificially lowered
• Extraordinary needs

There's nothing inherently wrong with most of these, but it's a synergistic program to increase the choline requirement.

And then you'll find subset of people avoiding even leafy greens due to the poison/"vitamin" A issue, so sources become scarce.

- Incomprehensive/ble Notes On Choline
- Meeting the Choline Requirement — Eggs, Organs, and the Wheat Paradox | Mito
- Consuming Creatine in Foods and Supplements | Mito

Therefore I suspect that having a decent choline supplement available for the community is something reasonable.


As far as I know, phosphatidylcholine is the least problematic form, but the choline supplements available are sourced from seeds and are often of poor quality.

The fatty acids attached to phosphatidylcholine are changed when metabolized, so it's possible for the fatty acid profile of a meal to be reflected in the phosphatidylcholine molecule to some extent when incorporated. This is an argument in favor of using any phosphatidylcholine ester, but if it's polyunsaturated, there would be an unecessary exposure to these fats in a weight ratio of about 1:8. As an example, for every 0.2 g of choline, it's an obtention of 1.6 g of PUFAs with the risk of these being incorporated where they shouldn't (hence Zeus using phosphatidylcholine as a carrier for fatty acids) and also adding up over time.

Zeus' Mitolipin would be ideal if it wasn't for the price and volume: it's clearly not intended to be a choline supplement.

200 mg/serving lasting 2 months or so is what I had in mind; it's a moderate dose that was found to be the average missing from people's diet. This is physically possible since the serving of lecithin products is 2.5 g, whereas such product would be less than 2 g.
Mitolipin provides less than 30 mg/serving, a bottle would last 5 days to supply that amount.


- Storage & Handling of Lipids | Avanti Lipids

"Lipids composed of fatty acids that are completely saturated (e.g., dimyristoyl or dipalmitoyl phosphatidylcholine) are stable as powders."

"Lipids composed of fatty acids containing one or more double bonds (e.g., dioleoyl phosphatidylcholine or egg phosphatidylcholine) are not stable as powders. These lipids are extremely hygroscopic as powders and will quickly absorb moisture and become gummy upon opening the container. This could result in hydrolysis or oxidation of the material."​

How could conservative doses of it used as part of a complex be more problematic than a prolonged insufficiency? We can't ignore that its lack isn't something rare in this community.

If you have an object, please post.
By the way, I don't know why a 'No' alternative was included since it's about having enough people interested, and too many 'nitric oxide synthases' give an impression that it's not worth it.

--
@haidut @healthnatura @LifeGivingStore @Terma

Wouldn't the saturated PC in MitoLipin cover this requirement?

 

[SB4]

Wouldn't the saturated PC in MitoLipin cover this requirement?

"Mitolipin provides less than 30 mg/serving, a bottle would last 5 days to supply that amount." Amazoniac is looking for around 200mg choline per day.

 

[baccheion]

Interesting. Could you point me in the direction of how intestinal bacteria consume choline? Is there any studies or similar?

- Gut flora metabolism of phosphatidylcholine promotes cardiovascular disease

- Characterization and Detection of a Widely Distributed Gene Cluster That Predicts Anaerobic Choline Utilization by Human Gut Bacteria

- The Gut Microbiome and the Brain

- Association between composition of the human gastrointestinal microbiome and development of fatty liver with choline deficiency

- Intestinal Microbiota Composition Modulates Choline Bioavailability from Diet and Accumulation of the Proatherogenic Metabolite Trimethylamine-N-Oxide

- Intestinal microbial metabolism of phosphatidylcholine: a novel insight in the cardiovascular risk scenario

- Trimethylaminuria: Causes and Diagnosis of a Socially Distressing Condition

 

[SB4]

- Gut flora metabolism of phosphatidylcholine promotes cardiovascular disease

- Characterization and Detection of a Widely Distributed Gene Cluster That Predicts Anaerobic Choline Utilization by Human Gut Bacteria

- The Gut Microbiome and the Brain

- Association between composition of the human gastrointestinal microbiome and development of fatty liver with choline deficiency

- Intestinal Microbiota Composition Modulates Choline Bioavailability from Diet and Accumulation of the Proatherogenic Metabolite Trimethylamine-N-Oxide

- Intestinal microbial metabolism of phosphatidylcholine: a novel insight in the cardiovascular risk scenario

- Trimethylaminuria: Causes and Diagnosis of a Socially Distressing Condition

Thanks a bunch. So I just went over the abstracts and I also found this image

which seems to suggest the bacteria are eating the choline itself.

So why does the type of choline matter? Could it be that phosphatidylcholine is more likely to be absorbed whole and so less chance for gut flora to get at it. Could it be, on the other hand, that something like choline chloride disassociates early on in the digestive process allowing choline to be absorbed further up the smaller intestines? Or does it not matter the type and just the amount of bad flora you've got?

 

[baccheion]

Thanks a bunch. So I just went over the abstracts and I also found this image

which seems to suggest the bacteria are eating the choline itself.

So why does the type of choline matter? Could it be that phosphatidylcholine is more likely to be absorbed whole and so less chance for gut flora to get at it. Could it be, on the other hand, that something like choline chloride disassociates early on in the digestive process allowing choline to be absorbed further up the smaller intestines? Or does it not matter the type and just the amount of bad flora you've got?

Alpha-GPC hasn't yet been broken down. Also, bioavailability is higher. Another (linked) study suggested excess choline is what makes it to be consumed by gut bacteria (which then give off bad metabolites).

Higher levels of TMA results in a fishy odor and is typically caused by choline and acetyl L-carnitine. Riboflavin helps metabolise TMA, as it's part of the chain that creates the metabolizing enzymes.

 

[Dave Clark]

For years I used Twin Labs choline chloride, which is in a liquid form, with no noticeable issues. It was the recommended form back in the 80s and for a few decades after, then all of the sudden you hear nothing about it. It was very affordable, but tasted like crap, so you have to wash it sown quick. I believe that the bitartrate form had more side effects than the chloride form, especially gut related.

 

[baccheion]

For years I used Twin Labs choline chloride, which is in a liquid form, with no noticeable issues. It was the recommended form back in the 80s and for a few decades after, then all of the sudden you hear nothing about it. It was very affordable, but tasted like crap, so you have to wash it sown quick. I believe that the bitartrate form had more side effects than the chloride form, especially gut related.

Not saying you had it, but most with the associated fishy odor can't tell. Others notice it.

 

[SB4]

Alpha-GPC hasn't yet been broken down. Also, bioavailability is higher. Another (linked) study suggested excess choline is what makes it to be consumed by gut bacteria (which then give off bad metabolites).

Okay makes sense. When I was taking sunflower lecithin I was taking it in 1 to 5 tbsps per day which is quite a lot. Suspect that was too much for gut flora. When I have taken alpha GPC in the past I had bad experiences with it but I can't remember exactly what.

It was very affordable, but tasted like crap, so you have to wash it sown quick.

I suspect it is the chloride. I had some magnesium chloride and it was disgusting.

 

[baccheion]

Okay makes sense. When I was taking sunflower lecithin I was taking it in 1 to 5 tbsps per day which is quite a lot. Suspect that was too much for gut flora. When I have taken alpha GPC in the past I had bad experiences with it but I can't remember exactly what.



I suspect it is the chloride. I had some magnesium chloride and it was disgusting.

Depression and other symptoms of high acetylcholine? Not as much alpha-GPC is required. Some take 300-600 mg, though usually with nootropics (eg, 20x noopept oral-equivalent dose).

Acetyl L-carnitine + alpha-GPC + Na-R-ALA is a popular combo. TMA mania.