How to avoid depressive symptoms when eating choline rich foods?

miquelangeles

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I know this is not uncommon, and there are other people with the same issue.
Choline supplements and choline rich foods make me depressed, sluggish and slows my thinking process and verbal fluency.
Supplements in the form of polyenyl-phosphatidylcholine (PPC) seems to be the worst. I get similar reactions from eating eggs, and most notably from eating chicken or any kind of fowl meat. For a while, I thought I had an allergy to chicken meat but the reactions are too similar when supplementing choline. Pork doesn't give me these reactions although it does contain a decent amount of choline as well. I guess there are slightly different forms of choline in different meats.
Are there any strategies to mitigate these effects, such as increasing AChE, or avoiding choline rich foods is the way to go?
Thanks!
 

miquelangeles

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No, they can always be replicated with choline rich foods as well as choline supplements. The effects are the same from both supplemental choline and choline foods.
 

redsun

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I know this is not uncommon, and there are other people with the same issue.
Choline supplements and choline rich foods make me depressed, sluggish and slows my thinking process and verbal fluency.
Supplements in the form of polyenyl-phosphatidylcholine (PPC) seems to be the worst. I get similar reactions from eating eggs, and most notably from eating chicken or any kind of fowl meat. For a while, I thought I had an allergy to chicken meat but the reactions are too similar when supplementing choline. Pork doesn't give me these reactions although it does contain a decent amount of choline as well. I guess there are slightly different forms of choline in different meats.
Are there any strategies to mitigate these effects, such as increasing AChE, or avoiding choline rich foods is the way to go?
Thanks!

Eat the same amount of choline every day at least. This allows the body to adjust. If you eat them infrequently it won't be so smooth. Even better would be to eat them at the same time everyday.

If it still causes you problems that you can't get rid of. You may need to avoid choline rich foods or possibly have them at night before you sleep. That way you are not awake and they can get into the system and by the time you wake you should be fine. You could have high AChE inhibition if you supplement zinc and/or manganese (both of them do this). If you supplement B-complex that can cause high cholinergic activity. Or you can naturally have high acetylcholine. Like I said usually the body will adjust to your intake if it is consistent.
 

miquelangeles

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Eat the same amount of choline every day at least. This allows the body to adjust. If you eat them infrequently it won't be so smooth. Even better would be to eat them at the same time everyday.

If it still causes you problems that you can't get rid of. You may need to avoid choline rich foods or possibly have them at night before you sleep. That way you are not awake and they can get into the system and by the time you wake you should be fine. You could have high AChE inhibition if you supplement zinc and/or manganese (both of them do this). If you supplement B-complex that can cause high cholinergic activity. Or you can naturally have high acetylcholine. Like I said usually the body will adjust to your intake if it is consistent.
Thanks for the reply.
I've thought about this, but I hesitated to do it consistently because it's also easy to get used to something bad and then forget what it's like to feel good.
About consuming it at night, I guess I'll give it a try. Haven't done much reading on this, but I saw that it could interfere with sleep, increasing REM reducing SWS.
Recent articles actually recommend eggs at dinner for improving sleep, but "grandma science" always said to avoid eggs at night, for whatever reason. And usually "grandma science" is better than today's experts.
Not supplementing B-complex, just some B1, B2 and ubiquinol, which seems to actually help a lot.
 

miquelangeles

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Lower prolactin.
Interesting, thanks. I looked it up briefly, and indeed there seems to be a connection but usually it is mentioned the other way around - increased acetylcholine inhibiting the release of prolactin.
Injected prolactin seems to reduce the turnover of ACh, and that would fit into the theory but I don't know how relevant it is.
 

Razvan

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It is very relevant.
Interesting, thanks. I looked it up briefly, and indeed there seems to be a connection but usually it is mentioned the other way around - increased acetylcholine inhibiting the release of prolactin.
Injected prolactin seems to reduce the turnover of ACh, and that would fit into the theory but I don't know how relevant it is.
By lowering prolactin you resolve a lot of problems. When dopamin is high prolactin is usually low.By inhibiting prolactin you can block the low libido effect of low estrogen. Usually people that say they feel depressed or they don't have any libido when having low estrogen it's because of the medium to high prolactin. Dopamine is produced when converting testosterone to estrogen so blocking estrogen but having high prolactin will cause side effects.
 

Razvan

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So how to drop prolactin?
Dopamine agonists, avoiding too much ejaculation, prolactin antagonists, stop eating dairy if you are sensible to the opioids of it. Personally I'm not but i know some people that have problems with cow dairy. Vitamin E,Coffee,5a-dhp.
 

Frankdee20

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This used to happen to me a lot even from just eggs.... It doesn’t seem to bother me much these days, but maybe you can consume less choline... the right amount does help brain function but too much will dull the senses.... I believe it can lower dopamine, but some amount activates dopamine in certain areas.... you can always use an anti cholinergic like doxylamine succinate over the counter... but it’s very sedating even half a pill... but trust me, you will feel stupid in the morning from the choline block...
 

miquelangeles

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This used to happen to me a lot even from just eggs.... It doesn’t seem to bother me much these days, but maybe you can consume less choline... the right amount does help brain function but too much will dull the senses.... I believe it can lower dopamine, but some amount activates dopamine in certain areas.... you can always use an anti cholinergic like doxylamine succinate over the counter... but it’s very sedating even half a pill... but trust me, you will feel stupid in the morning from the choline block...
I avoid eggs for this reason, wish I could eat more. They are nutrient dense and universally available, wherever you may travel. I prefer a diet that revolves around basic foods that you can get at any place.
I guess one can be fine with their endogenous production of choline as well.
Different types of choline-rich foods affect me differently, that's why I wonder which types of choline are the culprit.
Fowl livers, eggs and phosphatidylcholine supplements seem to be the worst, but I can eat pork and mammal livers without much issues, and they also contain considerable amount of choline. I'll try to experiment with other forms of choline supplements instead, as well as inositol.
 

redsun

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I avoid eggs for this reason, wish I could eat more. They are nutrient dense and universally available, wherever you may travel. I prefer a diet that revolves around basic foods that you can get at any place.
I guess one can be fine with their endogenous production of choline as well.
Different types of choline-rich foods affect me differently, that's why I wonder which types of choline are the culprit.
Fowl livers, eggs and phosphatidylcholine supplements seem to be the worst, but I can eat pork and mammal livers without much issues, and they also contain considerable amount of choline. I'll try to experiment with other forms of choline supplements instead, as well as inositol.

Humans cannot produce enough choline endogenously to meet demands. You may be able to get away with bare minimum from a combination of meat/dairy, but bare minimum is not good. Like I said, eating at night will be good to try or consistently eat it at the same time everyday.

Eating eggs at night may even be better besides the fact that you can't feel depressed when asleep. They are packed with nutrients for hormone synthesis (vitamin A, vitamin D, B2, B5, cholesterol, phosphorus) and may raise androgens this way because most of your hormones are made at night.
 

Razvan

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Humans cannot produce enough choline endogenously to meet demands. You may be able to get away with bare minimum from a combination of meat/dairy, but bare minimum is not good. Like I said, eating at night will be good to try or consistently eat it at the same time everyday.

Eating eggs at night may even be better besides the fact that you can't feel depressed when asleep. They are packed with nutrients for hormone synthesis (vitamin A, vitamin D, B2, B5, cholesterol, phosphorus) and may raise androgens this way because most of your hormones are made at night.
Agreed this time Redsun, especially that cholesterol if properly converted into.his metabolites from proper thyroid function will prevent the depressive thoughts from choline,but i do prefer brains as it has the cholesterol of 25 eggs and small amounts of pregnenolone. When blocking acetylcholine too much you can feel dissociated and dumb.
 

Frankdee20

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I avoid eggs for this reason, wish I could eat more. They are nutrient dense and universally available, wherever you may travel. I prefer a diet that revolves around basic foods that you can get at any place.
I guess one can be fine with their endogenous production of choline as well.
Different types of choline-rich foods affect me differently, that's why I wonder which types of choline are the culprit.
Fowl livers, eggs and phosphatidylcholine supplements seem to be the worst, but I can eat pork and mammal livers without much issues, and they also contain considerable amount of choline. I'll try to experiment with other forms of choline supplements instead, as well as inositol.
You are onto something because eating veal liver wouldn’t bother me as much as eating 4 eggs, but they are different forms of choline.
 

Frankdee20

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Lots of herbs and nutrients are acetylcholine esterase inhibitors and that makes it worse
 

miquelangeles

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Agreed this time Redsun, especially that cholesterol if properly converted into.his metabolites from proper thyroid function will prevent the depressive thoughts from choline,but i do prefer brains as it has the cholesterol of 25 eggs and small amounts of pregnenolone. When blocking acetylcholine too much you can feel dissociated and dumb.
I'm also a big fan of pig brains and try to eat them at least weekly. Fresh ones are amazing, frozen don't taste nearly as good. I fry them lightly in a little butter and sometimes I buy more and mash them into a paté that lasts the whole week. Have to chase them though, because they are not always in stock and no small butcher shops in my area. The larger Carrefour's usually stock them once a week. Btw, I'm also from Romania.
Never tried it with T3 though. Which T3 product are you using?
 

miquelangeles

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Lots of herbs and nutrients are acetylcholine esterase inhibitors and that makes it worse
You are right, I completely overlooked this. Thanks for pointing it out.
I was taking a relatively low dose of lion's mane, which is known to raise acetylcholine, or to at least modulate acetylcholine receptors.
 

Razvan

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I'm also a big fan of pig brains and try to eat them at least weekly. Fresh ones are amazing, frozen don't taste nearly as good. I fry them lightly in a little butter and sometimes I buy more and mash them into a paté that lasts the whole week. Have to chase them though, because they are not always in stock and no small butcher shops in my area. The larger Carrefour's usually stock them once a week. Btw, I'm also from Romania.
Never tried it with T3 though. Which T3 product are you using?
Write me in private.
 

Frankdee20

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You are right, I completely overlooked this. Thanks for pointing it out.
I was taking a relatively low dose of lion's mane, which is known to raise acetylcholine, or to at least modulate acetylcholine receptors.
Coffee as well
 
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