Why It Might Be Better To Temporarily Gain Weight After Diet Improvement

[Blossom]

Thanks Blossom.

I wonder how much it would help (I suspect a huge amount) to give these people thyroid supplements especially T3.

I used thyroid off and on and it’s hard for me to say. I had tachycardia for quite some time so it was a delicate balance between not worsening that symptom yet correcting my hypo symptoms. Food alone wasn’t miraculously fixing my metabolism. T3 was better in my case than T4 which seemed to build up and then massively release and cause uncomfortable symptoms. I think treating my hypothyroid symptoms on my own was not the best idea. I still ended up faring better than most of the other people I know following that method of recovery despite being in my mid-late 40’s so I’m sure it helped but it would have been a better experience if I had had expert guidance.

 

[Collden]

This one is interesting:
Weight reduction by fasting and semistarvation in morbid obesity: Long-term follow-up

Extract: Over a number of years, 207 morbidly obese patients were hospitalized for weight reduction via prolonged fasting and subsequent semi-starvation. Half the patients fasted close to two months losing 28.6 kg (mean). One-fourth fasted more than two months with a 41.4 kg weight loss. Follow-up data (7.2 years, mean) in 121 patients revealed maintenance of reduced weight for the first 12-18 months. Subsequently, regain proceeded equally in all groups irrespective of length of fast, extent of weight loss or age at onset of obesity. Prolonged fasting did not result in lasting weight reduction and is, at best, of only temporary benefit. It assures rapid, uninterrupted weight loss without undue hunger and it is safe if conducted in a supervised environment. The cost of a fasting regimen is high and may be justifiable only in rare instances.

Thats a fair point, but how does it compare to long-term followups of other methods of weight loss? Do we know what happened to people who did the Kempner diet many years after their weight loss?

Of course its very likely that weight will eventually creep back up unless you address the fundamental reasons why the person became obese in the first place. I'm sure even Peat would agree that you have a much better chance of addressing these fundamental causes from a state of leanness as opposed to an obese state.

Peat for sure does not regard obesity as something conducive to health.

 

[ecstatichamster]

it's been very clear from the Biggest Loser for instance that fasting and extreme weight loss ruins metabolism and that may actually work very strongly against the person ever becoming healthy.

I think to make this work you have to lose very slowly without ruining your metabolism, which may mean over many years.

 

[Collden]

I think in order to work long-term, fat loss has to be a function of a sustainable life style and sustainable relationship with food that remains stable even after you lose the weight. But, fat loss is always a result of creating a calorie deficit and burning your excess fat. I have never seen any evidence to the contrary here or elsewhere that a person can "safely" lose their excess fat by some totally different process of "detoxification and excretion" of excess fat. Do you know anyone who has gone from obese to lean while eating maintenance calories of a low-fat low-PUFA diet?

Another example of extreme yet sustainable weight loss is Jon Gabriel. He changed his environmental stressors a lot which no doubt played a big role in his long-term success, but in the end he lost his weight quite rapidly by creating a tremendous caloric deficit. I doubt that glucoronidation played a big part in his fat loss.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I am sure that all these fast weight loss regimes are very unhealthy. Perhaps they are healthy compared to dying. That was what Penn Gillette says in his book. He would have died had he not gone on the potato diet.

But for most people they will be much better off losing slowly. As far as how perhaps a caloric deficit is needed, it depends upon metabolic rate.

The metabolism increase via uncoupling can make someone burn much more calories than they are simply by reducing caloric intake.

I think all sugar and low/no starch may be helpful for many because it seems to raise metabolic rates by increasing uncoupling and futile cycling.

 

[Collden]

I think a lot of people here have tried the frequent feeding all sugar/zero-fat diet and it hasn't produced any magical weight loss results that we've heard about. For one because it does nothing to create sustainable habits, no one is going to stick to that kind of diet for life.

My point was not really to promote the healthiness of long-term fasting, although I'm not sure its any worse than any other method of weight loss. Rather the point was that to sustainably attain and keep your optimal weight you have to create habits that allow you to eat just the right amount of food over time without going overboard, as it seems that repeatedly and continuously going overboard gradually throws your metabolic control out of whack. From what I've observed, in most people, creating this kind of balance seems to either require a high level of physical activity, or regular meal skipping (ie short fasting periods).

This means that you will have periods of high insulin in which you are mainly burning glucose, balanced by... gasp! - periods of low insulin in which you are burning mainly fat. Striving to constantly remain in a high-insulin glucose-burning state I think will throw most people out of balance over time and certainly doesn't seem to lead to weight loss.

 

[Vinny]

But, fat loss is always a result of creating a calorie deficit and burning your excess fat.

Another example of extreme yet sustainable weight loss is Jon Gabriel.
.... but in the end he lost his weight quite rapidly by creating a tremendous caloric deficit.

From Gabriel`s website:

"I learned that losing weight sustainably isn’t about counting calories....

Over a two-and-half-year period I lost 220 pounds, without dieting. I’ve been the same weight now for over 14 years and I still don’t diet. I eat whatever I want, whenever I want.

I learned through my research that my body was chronically starved for certain key nutrients, such as omega-3 fatty acids, live foods and high-quality proteins. I made sure I gave myself as much really high-quality nutrients as possible. If I wanted junk foods like candy, chips or pizza, I would eat them whenever I wanted, without hesitation."


He mentions nowhere calorie restriction, man...

 

[Collden]

From Gabriel`s website:

"I learned that losing weight sustainably isn’t about counting calories....

Over a two-and-half-year period I lost 220 pounds, without dieting. I’ve been the same weight now for over 14 years and I still don’t diet. I eat whatever I want, whenever I want.

I learned through my research that my body was chronically starved for certain key nutrients, such as omega-3 fatty acids, live foods and high-quality proteins. I made sure I gave myself as much really high-quality nutrients as possible. If I wanted junk foods like candy, chips or pizza, I would eat them whenever I wanted, without hesitation."


He mentions nowhere calorie restriction, man...

He mentions in his book that as a result of his method he started eating less and exercising more, although it wasn't forced, and this coincided with his weight loss.

 

[Vinny]

He mentions in his book that as a result of his method he started eating less and exercising more, although it wasn't forced, and this coincided with his weight loss.

Ok, but how do we know if he REALLY started to eat less? And, how much is "less"? And, "less" from what amount initially?
I`d be really interested to go through his book if it can be downloaded for free.

 

[redsun]

I think in order to work long-term, fat loss has to be a function of a sustainable life style and sustainable relationship with food that remains stable even after you lose the weight. But, fat loss is always a result of creating a calorie deficit and burning your excess fat. I have never seen any evidence to the contrary here or elsewhere that a person can "safely" lose their excess fat by some totally different process of "detoxification and excretion" of excess fat. Do you know anyone who has gone from obese to lean while eating maintenance calories of a low-fat low-PUFA diet?

Another example of extreme yet sustainable weight loss is Jon Gabriel. He changed his environmental stressors a lot which no doubt played a big role in his long-term success, but in the end he lost his weight quite rapidly by creating a tremendous caloric deficit. I doubt that glucoronidation played a big part in his fat loss.

View attachment 15286

Yes and yet it is so common even here for many that somehow it is possible to lose actual body fat without some sort of significant change of the metabolic rate(muscle gain, exercise) or change of food intake or both. Pounding down food will results in weight gain, less food means weight loss. I am not talking about inflammation induced weight gain, water weight, etc. Actual body fat has to be burned one way or another.

I think a lot of people here have tried the frequent feeding all sugar/zero-fat diet and it hasn't produced any magical weight loss results that we've heard about. For one because it does nothing to create sustainable habits, no one is going to stick to that kind of diet for life.

My point was not really to promote the healthiness of long-term fasting, although I'm not sure its any worse than any other method of weight loss. Rather the point was that to sustainably attain and keep your optimal weight you have to create habits that allow you to eat just the right amount of food over time without going overboard, as it seems that repeatedly and continuously going overboard gradually throws your metabolic control out of whack. From what I've observed, in most people, creating this kind of balance seems to either require a high level of physical activity, or regular meal skipping (ie short fasting periods).

This means that you will have periods of high insulin in which you are mainly burning glucose, balanced by... gasp! - periods of low insulin in which you are burning mainly fat. Striving to constantly remain in a high-insulin glucose-burning state I think will throw most people out of balance over time and certainly doesn't seem to lead to weight loss.

Problem is physical activity or fasting periods don't get to the core of the issue but I would argue that exercise does have other effects that can translate to weight loss either directly or indirectly. High calorie malnutrition is to blame for weight gain in the modern world.

Depletion of vital nutrients caused be eating lots and lots of empty or subpar calories day in and day out is a common theme even here. Lots of well-meaning and yet clueless people wanting to drop weight and yet are curious why they can never really do it when their diet is woefully inadequate(from their cronometers and food choices that display here).

Raging appetites cannot be quenched by anything other than nutrient density. For example, If you are a slightly active male who burns 3000 calories a day and you have eaten about 2500 calories that day and you still have to eat a bit more by the end of the day to be neutral and you still feel like you are STARVING when you should only be mildly hungry when you are near your calorie requirements, that's a clear problem of an inadequate diet.

I remember in my trashy eating days where I felt like my stomach was a black hole that was never satisfied. I was pounding down tons of calorie dense, tasty, fatty, sugar junk food and was still starving. Unending appetite for anything and everything. Only when I killed my junk food intake and reintroduced copious amounts of meats(proteins) and other animal foods and clean starches(aka all real food) did this obsessive need for nourishment go away.

Only when I dialed in and got serious about eating as nutritously as possible did this ravenous hunger die. Without a doubt for the overweight and obese, if they were to eat more nutritious foods from all food groups that actually feed the body and not just satisfy the tongue they would find it much easier to drop weight because they would be feeding what the body needs to maintain itself.

I learned through my research that my body was chronically starved for certain key nutrients, such as omega-3 fatty acids, live foods and high-quality proteins. I made sure I gave myself as much really high-quality nutrients as possible. If I wanted junk foods like candy, chips or pizza, I would eat them whenever I wanted, without hesitation."


He mentions nowhere calorie restriction, man...

Countless times I recommend people with low or barely adequate protein intake to increase it substantially. Sometimes they give it a shot, sometimes they disregard it as if it is some bizarre otherworldly advice. Vinny my man, look at the part of the quote you did not bold. Key word here is high quality proteins and high quality nutrients. You'll naturally eat less and end up with more energy(to exercise or do anything really) if you improve diet quality and feed the body what it needs. I have no doubt this guy can get away with eating junk from time to time and still lose weight because his nutrition is beyond covered by correct foods.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Fasting depletes the body of lean mass. Dr. Peat discusses it in the interview I cited earlier. More lean mass is lost and for many older people they may never get that back. Thymus gland, muscles, heart, liver, even the brain loses lean mass. Really an incredibly stupid thing for someone to do who may be older and already unhealthy.

 

[Blossom]

Fasting depletes the body of lean mass. Dr. Peat discusses it in the interview I cited earlier. More lean mass is lost and for many older people they may never get that back. Thymus gland, muscles, heart, liver, even the brain loses lean mass. Really an incredibly stupid thing for someone to do who may be older and already unhealthy.

I tend to agree with this and wish I had focused more on protein 5 years ago. I recently started eating more protein and it has helped restore musculature and improved my body composition without any formal exercise. I think this is very important for people who have been through periods of under eating that led to muscle wasting.

 

[ExCarniv]

High calorie malnutrition is to blame for weight gain in the modern world.

This is key.

Only when I killed my junk food intake and reintroduced copious amounts of meats(proteins) and other animal foods and clean starches(aka all real food) did this obsessive need for nourishment go away.

Same for me, I did lost 25kilos eating lots of meat, eggs, fish and liver, almost complete Nutrition and did lost without counting calories. This brought some other issues, but now I'm aware of it and balancing those nutritious nourishing foods with proper carbohydrates and aminoacids and recovering very well after losing excessive weight.

 

[Vinny]

Countless times I recommend people with low or barely adequate protein intake to increase it substantially. Sometimes they give it a shot, sometimes they disregard it as if it is some bizarre otherworldly advice. Vinny my man, look at the part of the quote you did not bold. Key word here is high quality proteins and high quality nutrients. You'll naturally eat less and end up with more energy(to exercise or do anything really) if you improve diet quality and feed the body what it needs. I have no doubt this guy can get away with eating junk from time to time and still lose weight because his nutrition is beyond covered by correct foods.

You may not believe it, but when I read your post (was already in bed btw) went str8 to the kitchen and chomped down a good portion of beef.
Never took your advices as bizarre. Im not here for BS passing the time. I came to listen what other more knowledgeable and experienced can tell me, so that I can eventually get my health back. And, fortunately, those kind of people exist!

 

[Kelj]

From Dr. Gaudiani's book entitled Sick Enough, which I have read and who's ideas about recovery closely align with Olwyn's and any ideas I have expressed on this forum. Some quotes from this book to begin. Others will follow:

"Patients and theirfamilies would tell me about their frustrations with the healthcare system during their years of illness: medical professionals who would miss physical signs of starvation and praise patients for weight loss, unwittingly reinforce
patients’ beliefs that they were “fine” and thus delay admission into needed higher levels of care, or focus narrowly on weight as a marker of
health. This occurs in part because medical professionals receive almost
no training in eating disorders. I, for instance, received zero hours of
education on the topic."

"If you have even one of the medical
issues detailed in the book, you are sick enough. If you have never had an
eating disorder, but you have a disordered relationship with food and your body, you are at risk for the medical problems I describe."

"I have lectured nationally and internationally about the medical complications of eating disorders, speaking most often to rooms of dedicated therapists and dietitians who are often put in the position of having to educate their patients’
doctors."

"When I say starvation, I mean any
situation in which not enough calories are consumed, over some period of
time, to fulfil the body’s needs. Starvation can occur in people of any body shape and size. It doesn’t just happen in people with lower body weight, although society and the medical profession may not understand this fact."

"Low energy intake can occur during an eating disorder or disordered eating, but it can also happen when someone goes on a diet or participates in a fast or a “cleanse.”

"In my clinical experience, many individuals with atypical anorexia
nervosa don’t believe they have an eating disorder because they aren’t
stereotypically emaciated. This is only reinforced by society and by medical
providers who not only miss the eating disorder but praise such patients for their weight loss and presumed “health” when, in fact, the behaviors
being used are the opposite of healthy."

"When a person consumes too few calories, the cave person brain
decreases their metabolic rate so that fewer calories are burned. As I will
detail in Chapter 2, it does this by slowing down our heart rate, lowering
our blood pressure, slowing our digestion, reducing blood flow to our
hands and feet, and decreasing our feeling of energy to get things done,
in order to make us hold still and conserve energy. This increases the likelihood that the person will survive until food is again available."

"We use up far more calories to maintain a consistent temperature than we do going to the gym."

"when my patients manifest few medical issues and a stable
body weight despite eating disorder behaviors, I first validate that the
behaviors themselves are worthy of care and treatment. I identify they must come from “survivor” genetic stock; their cave person brains are remarkably effective at defending their bodies from the effects of starvation. For others who develop medical problems early on in their eating disorder, I note they are genetically “sensitive.”

"the malnourished person is constantly scanning the world for threats. That mental activity makes them much more rigid, resistant to change, and truly fearful much of the time.....It’s their starved brain."

"When our nutritional gas tank is empty, multiple organ systems run out of the energy they need to function normally. The most deadly example of this is hypoglycemia, meaning low blood sugar. Our bone marrow typically makes blood cells, but it stops doing so when malnourished. Our liver, which serves multiple purposes in our bodies, can malfunction. Our skin and hair can suffer immensely from starvation, making patients look far older than they are, with thin, brittle hair and fragile skin that easily bruises or tears and heals more slowly.....
The good news is that nutritional rehabilitation will resolve all of these problems."

"Those examples inform my strong recommendation that individuals swiftly begin taking in adequate calories and, when under weight, fully restore weight during the recovery process. Failing to fully renourish the brain and body bears the risk of trapping the patient in a purgatory of starved brain perceptions."

"The nausea, fullness and bloating of gastroparesis creates a two-fold trigger. One the person feels uncomfortably full, and two, the belly looks distended."

"For the first few months of recovery, patients have to resist their intuitions about what their body needs, nutritionally, until they are well into nutritional rehabilitation. Following the intuitions of a starved body keeps people malnourished, keeping the symptoms worse and the recovery that much harder."

 

[mbachiu]

From Dr. Gaudiani's book entitled Sick Enough, which I have read and who's ideas about recovery closely align with Olwyn's and any ideas I have expressed on this forum. Some quotes from this book to begin. Others will follow:

"Patients and theirfamilies would tell me about their frustrations with the healthcare system during their years of illness: medical professionals who would miss physical signs of starvation and praise patients for weight loss, unwittingly reinforce
patients’ beliefs that they were “fine” and thus delay admission into needed higher levels of care, or focus narrowly on weight as a marker of
health. This occurs in part because medical professionals receive almost
no training in eating disorders. I, for instance, received zero hours of
education on the topic."

"If you have even one of the medical
issues detailed in the book, you are sick enough. If you have never had an
eating disorder, but you have a disordered relationship with food and your body, you are at risk for the medical problems I describe."

"I have lectured nationally and internationally about the medical complications of eating disorders, speaking most often to rooms of dedicated therapists and dietitians who are often put in the position of having to educate their patients’
doctors."

"When I say starvation, I mean any
situation in which not enough calories are consumed, over some period of
time, to fulfil the body’s needs. Starvation can occur in people of any body shape and size. It doesn’t just happen in people with lower body weight, although society and the medical profession may not understand this fact."

"Low energy intake can occur during an eating disorder or disordered eating, but it can also happen when someone goes on a diet or participates in a fast or a “cleanse.”

"In my clinical experience, many individuals with atypical anorexia
nervosa don’t believe they have an eating disorder because they aren’t
stereotypically emaciated. This is only reinforced by society and by medical
providers who not only miss the eating disorder but praise such patients for their weight loss and presumed “health” when, in fact, the behaviors
being used are the opposite of healthy."

"When a person consumes too few calories, the cave person brain
decreases their metabolic rate so that fewer calories are burned. As I will
detail in Chapter 2, it does this by slowing down our heart rate, lowering
our blood pressure, slowing our digestion, reducing blood flow to our
hands and feet, and decreasing our feeling of energy to get things done,
in order to make us hold still and conserve energy. This increases the likelihood that the person will survive until food is again available."

"We use up far more calories to maintain a consistent temperature than we do going to the gym."

"when my patients manifest few medical issues and a stable
body weight despite eating disorder behaviors, I first validate that the
behaviors themselves are worthy of care and treatment. I identify they must come from “survivor” genetic stock; their cave person brains are remarkably effective at defending their bodies from the effects of starvation. For others who develop medical problems early on in their eating disorder, I note they are genetically “sensitive.”

"the malnourished person is constantly scanning the world for threats. That mental activity makes them much more rigid, resistant to change, and truly fearful much of the time.....It’s their starved brain."

"When our nutritional gas tank is empty, multiple organ systems run out of the energy they need to function normally. The most deadly example of this is hypoglycemia, meaning low blood sugar. Our bone marrow typically makes blood cells, but it stops doing so when malnourished. Our liver, which serves multiple purposes in our bodies, can malfunction. Our skin and hair can suffer immensely from starvation, making patients look far older than they are, with thin, brittle hair and fragile skin that easily bruises or tears and heals more slowly.....
The good news is that nutritional rehabilitation will resolve all of these problems."

"Those examples inform my strong recommendation that individuals swiftly begin taking in adequate calories and, when under weight, fully restore weight during the recovery process. Failing to fully renourish the brain and body bears the risk of trapping the patient in a purgatory of starved brain perceptions."

"The nausea, fullness and bloating of gastroparesis creates a two-fold trigger. One the person feels uncomfortably full, and two, the belly looks distended."

"For the first few months of recovery, patients have to resist their intuitions about what their body needs, nutritionally, until they are well into nutritional rehabilitation. Following the intuitions of a starved body keeps people malnourished, keeping the symptoms worse and the recovery that much harder."

I ordered this book yesterday and look forward to reading it. Thanks for sharing some of these quotations with us.

 

[sunraiser]

I have to reinforce my experience here - ignoring my appetite intuition was the worst thing I ever did for my health.

I used to buy into the 'calorie deficit' idea, but in my experience the body simply shuts down unnecessary functions (like sociability and happiness hormones/thyroid) when a person can't metabolise enough calories and / or nutrients.

When the challenge passes (be it stress or immune or whatever) then appetite will naturally increase.

I have actively watched very healthy friends when spending time with them. They do not eat 3000 calories each day.

 

[mbachiu]

I have to reinforce my experience here - ignoring my appetite intuition was the worst thing I ever did for my health.

I used to buy into the 'calorie deficit' idea, but in my experience the body simply shuts down unnecessary functions (like sociability and happiness hormones/thyroid) when a person can't metabolise enough calories and / or nutrients.

When the challenge passes (be it stress or immune or whatever) then appetite will naturally increase.

I have actively watched very healthy friends when spending time with them. They do not eat 3000 calories each day.

Meaning they eat more or less than 3000 calories a day?

 

[sunraiser]

Meaning they eat more or less than 3000 calories a day?

Less than 3000. There exist situations in which 3000 calories are comfortable and necessary, I'm sure. I just think a calorie 'target' can only become neurotic and unhealthy.

It's like reverse annorexia. It definitely messed with my head for a good while, anyway.

Contrary to most of the forum, I think whole grains provide excellent and steady energy in a very different way to refined wheat - so I definitely don't believe all calories are equal from a physiological perspective.

I'm not saying not to eat food you enjoy, I just think calorie 'targets' are unlikely to move a person towards health or healthy views about eating.

 

[mbachiu]

Less than 3000. There exist situations in which 3000 calories are comfortable and necessary, I'm sure. I just think a calorie 'target' can only become neurotic and unhealthy.

It's like reverse annorexia. It definitely messed with my head for a good while, anyway.

Contrary to most of the forum, I think whole grains provide excellent and steady energy in a very different way to refined wheat - so I definitely don't believe all calories are equal from a physiological perspective.

I'm not saying not to eat food you enjoy, I just think calorie 'targets' are unlikely to move a person towards health or healthy views about eating.

Have these people dieted in the past? Or, they’ve just happily & normally consumed enough food throughout their lives?