Impact Of A High-sucrose Diet Vs A High-starch And A High-fat Diet

Giraffe

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Replacement of dietary fat by sucrose or starch: effects on 14 d ad libitum energy intake, energy expenditure and body weight in formerly obese and never-obese subjects.

OBJECTIVE:
To investigate the impact of a high-sucrose diet vs a high-starch and a high-fat diet on 14 d ad libitum energy intake, body weight, energy expenditure and sympathoadrenal activity.

MEASUREMENTS:
Food intake; body weight and composition (bioelectrical impedance); 24 h energy expenditure, substrate oxidation rates, spontaneous physical activity, heart rate and appetite sensations in a respiration chamber (VAS scores); plasma catecholamine concentration and blood pressure.

SUBJECTS:
Twenty normal-weight, healthy women, 9 post-obese (body mass index (BMI): 22.9 +/- 0.7 kg/m2) and 11 closely matched controls (BMI: 22.6 +/- 0.4 kg/m2).

RESULTS:
Average 14 d ad libitum energy intake was 13% and 12% lower on the starch diet compared with the sucrose and fat diets, respectively (P < 0.05). In both post-obese and normal-weight subjects, body weight and fat mass decreased significantly on the starch diet (by 0.7 +/- 0.2 kg and 0.4 +/- 0.1 kg, respectively, P < 0.05). No changes were observed on the fat or sucrose diets. After 14 d on the sucrose diet, 24 h energy expenditure as well as postprandial plasma adrenaline and noradrenaline concentrations, were significantly increased compared with the other two diets. Overall satisfy and palatability ratings were also highest on the sucrose diet.

CONCLUSION:
Intake of a 14-d ad libitum high-starch diet decreased energy intake and body weight compared with a high-fat or high-sucrose diet. The increased energy expenditure observed on the sucrose-rich diet can probably be explained both by the increased intake of energy and fructose (mainly from sucrose) on this diet.
 

hmac

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Giraffe said:
post 99734 24 h energy expenditure as well as postprandial plasma adrenaline and noradrenaline concentrations, were significantly increased compared with the other two diets.

What do you make of the bit about adrenaline and noradrenaline?
 
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Giraffe

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kaybb said:
post 110199 So this is saying eat a starch diet to lose weight?
Energy intake was lower compared with a high-fat or high-sucrose diet. I guess that the high-starch diet was little appealing, probably similar to the one promoted here (high starch / low fat).

The abstract says that all women were healthy and normal weight (BMI 22.9). They all were allowed to eat ad libitum, and all but the ones in the high-starch group kept their weight.

So this is saying in order to lose weight you need to eat less than you expend, but this is not a function of energy intake alone: The women on the high-sucrose diet (= high in fructose) were the ones that ate most, expended most and were happiest with their food.

This might also be saying eat an appealing diet to avoid under-eating.
 
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kaybb

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Giraffe said:
post 110208
kaybb said:
post 110199 So this is saying eat a starch diet to lose weight?
Energy intake was lower compared with a high-fat or high-sucrose diet. I guess that the high-starch diet was little appealing, probably similar to the one promoted here (high starch / low fat).

The abstract says that all women were healthy and normal weight (BMI 22.9). They all were allowed to eat ad libitum, and all but the ones in the high-starch group kept their weight.

So this is saying in order to lose weight you need to eat less than you expend, but this is not a function of energy intake alone: The women on the high-sucrose diet (= high in fructose) were the ones that ate most, expended most and were happiest with their food.

This might also be saying eat an appealing diet to avoid under-eating.
Ok..Thank you !
 
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I'm interested as well and from my personnal experiment, sugar before bed tends to keep me awake with a pounding heart...

Ray emphasizes sugar WITH protein. Otherwise, only protein will cause a surge in insulin followed by hypoglycemia that is stemmed by cortisol. But the converse is, just sugar WITHOUT protein could cause an insulin surge also, and without the protein or starch even to follow it and maintain insulin for awhile, the insulin falls and cortisol/adrenalin kicks in. Are you eating the sugar WITH protein before bed? Maybe that would solve this problem.

And to a comment on the study, there are other studies, such as a "Siamese Twin" study, that had young fit men paired and doing the same activities each day, one man of the pair on high carb, the other on high fat, both eating high calories and so expected to gain weight.

The caloric intake and activity levels were the same due to the pairing of the guys and having them do similar workouts, etc.

They found that the high carb men secreted about 30% of their caloric input through their feces, and that they GAINED lean muscle mass while the high fat group gained fat but did not gain lean muscle.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil..._young_men/links/0fcfd505730ae9a463000000.pdf
 

Lightbringer

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I'm interested as well and from my personnal experiment, sugar before bed tends to keep me awake with a pounding heart...
By sugar before bed, do you mean plain sugar or some food with sugar ? I think the same confusion exists with the study above. When they say high-sucrose, I wonder what % that translates to and what the rest of the diet was. Irrespective, the increase in adrenaline on 'high' sucrose is interesting.
 
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By sugar before bed, do you mean plain sugar or some food with sugar ? I think the same confusion exists with the study above. When they say high-sucrose, I wonder what % that translates to and what the rest of the diet was. Irrespective, the increase in adrenaline on 'high' sucrose is interesting.

i think it can easily happen by leaving you hypoglycemic after quick absorption of the sugar triggers insulin and then there's nothing to chase it with...
 

Lightbringer

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i think it can easily happen by leaving you hypoglycemic after quick absorption of the sugar triggers insulin and then there's nothing to chase it with...
I guess what i was trying to say was that folks on the study above would have also eaten protein, fat, vitamins and minerals. Not just plain sucrose.
 

tara

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I'm interested as well and from my personnal experiment, sugar before bed tends to keep me awake with a pounding heart...
I don't think you should persist for long with something that causes heart-pounding at night, if you can figure out how to avoid it.

I wonder if this has to do with what your blood sugar levels and other components are like at night, which varies from person to person, and according to what we eat.
I think you may be able to get stressy heart-pounding with either too high or too low blood sugars.

Some people's systems tend to go hypoglycemic easily, which triggers adrenaline, which can make the heart pound. Eg. from either reactive hypoglycemia as described above, or by running out of glycogen because the liver hasn't stored enough (whether from under-eating or difficulty with storage).

But also, I think hyperglycemia, and maybe high ammonia and other things, esp. with insufficient water, may cause increased blood viscosity, which requires the heart to work harder to keep it moving, and can also result in pounding. There's often a tendency to reduced blood volume during the night, which could promote this problem for some people. Also, for some people, cortisol or other factors can increase blood sugars through the night.

I think I've experienced stress from both too little and too much sugar before bed, and from both too much and too little water. The better I listen to my appetite and thirst before bed, the better it works, and the more I make time to eat enough earlier in the day, the less I get conflicting signals about it in the evening. Lately, I seldom need a big sugar boost before bed (though I sometimes indulge anyway, which doesn't seem to serve me well), and I seldom wake up needing a snack to get back to sleep. But ignoring or overriding a hunger/sugar craving before bed doesn't serve me either - that's when I can wake up from hunger. I do usually have something sweet for supper, and lately a drink of water before sleep. I hardly ever have to get up to pee in the night, but if I did I'd take it as a sign of drinking too much water. I don't think someone could copy me and have it work for them - I think it takes paying attention and tuning to our own current and changeable needs.

Some of these thoughts are inspired by Peat, some from Reams.
 

Peatit

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Thanks people for all your great comments :blush:, I forgot to mention that I was combining sugar with protein, for example by eating skimmed sweetened condensed milk (without any additive).

But also, I think hyperglycemia, and maybe high ammonia and other things, esp. with insufficient water, may cause increased blood viscosity, which requires the heart to work harder to keep it moving, and can also result in pounding. There's often a tendency to reduced blood volume during the night, which could promote this problem for some people.
This sounds very plausible insofar my protein intake is quite high (sometimes up to 200g/day), maybe I'll try to drastically lower it to test this hypothesis.

cortisol or other factors can increase blood sugars through the night.
Which ones?

Oh and who is Reams?
 

jyb

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Ray emphasizes sugar WITH protein. Otherwise, only protein will cause a surge in insulin followed by hypoglycemia that is stemmed by cortisol.

I saw this many times but was always skeptical. In fact I've tested on myself with glucose test strips and never saw any blood sugar problems on experiments with protein only food (which is not a usual meal for me). Even for the proteins supposed to stimulate insulin more. It really is quite difficult to go into hypoglycemia on a decent diet, in my own experience. If eating an egg triggers something so stressful as hypoglycemia, there may be other causes elsewhere I would think.
 

tara

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This sounds very plausible insofar my protein intake is quite high (sometimes up to 200g/day), maybe I'll try to drastically lower it to test this hypothesis.
You may be fine with that amount of protein - varies. But sounds like it could be worth the test to lower it for week or so and see what you notice.

Oh and who is Reams?
https://www.raypeatforum.com/community/threads/rbti-reams-mineral-deficiency.4433/

Another couple of thoughts.
Having adequate levels of all the co-factors - vitamins and minerals - to help use the sugar might be important. Are you getting B-vits and minerals and other co-factors to help make use of the sugar?
How's your breathing? Hyperventilation could contribute to the pounding heart at night too?
 
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I saw this many times but was always skeptical. In fact I've tested on myself with glucose test strips and never saw any blood sugar problems on experiments with protein only food (which is not a usual meal for me). Even for the proteins supposed to stimulate insulin more. It really is quite difficult to go into hypoglycemia on a decent diet, in my own experience. If eating an egg triggers something so stressful as hypoglycemia, there may be other causes elsewhere I would think.
Is it possible that hypoglycemia doesn't kick in because glucocorticoids take effect so quickly inversely to insulin levels?

It is supposed to be very hard to be hypoglycemic.
 

tara

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Is it possible that hypoglycemia doesn't kick in because glucocorticoids take effect so quickly inversely to insulin levels?
That was my thought too. Most people would probably have to take their blood sample at the right second to catch the low.
It is supposed to be very hard to be hypoglycemic.
For most people it's probably hard to stay hypoglycemic for long. But some people seem to get so depleted that it happens more easily. Didn't Barnes write about 'Help for hypoglycemia'?
 

Peatit

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Having adequate levels of all the co-factors - vitamins and minerals - to help use the sugar might be important. Are you getting B-vits and minerals and other co-factors to help make use of the sugar?
How's your breathing? Hyperventilation could contribute to the pounding heart at night too?
I think my diet is pretty good but I am not sure about my vit B so I take a multi B supp as I am not aware of good dietary sources of it. I also take niacinamide.
My day breathing is normal, or even on the low side of breaths/minute but at night i am unable to sleep mouth closed.
Thank you Tara
 
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you don't GET hypoglycemic, it is cut off with cortisol before it can happen. That's why Ray says to take sugare wit
I think my diet is pretty good but I am not sure about my vit B so I take a multi B supp as I am not aware of good dietary sources of it. I also take niacinamide.
My day breathing is normal, or even on the low side of breaths/minute but at night i am unable to sleep mouth closed.
Thank you Tara

Why? What happens when you try to sleep with your mouth closed? Are you taping your mouth closed at night?
 
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