When Dietary Fat Intake Falls Below 10% Of Total Daily Calories, You’ll Still Gain Fat

[Jessie]

@Hgreen56 I agree, but I think the best way to improve insulin sensitivity is to lower FAO. So this would naturally rule out low carb diets as a effective tool for controlling insulin resistance. People who eat low carb ketogenic diets are losing weight because of increased FAO, not because they're improving insulin resistance. In fact, their insulin insensitivity actually gets worse. Burning fat for fuel shuts down the oxidative metabolism, you're losing weight because of high stress hormones. There's been a few studies (a couple on this forum I believe) showing low carb diets increase the chance of diabetes, heart disease, and cancer despite subjects losing weight on the diet. This is due to the deterioration caused by cortisol.

 

[Hgreen56]

Kreeese reported eating at least 200g of carbs a day. Clash, closer to 300-350. There is no way you can spin either intake as "Low Carb."

ok, you have a point there. but they eat high fat + sugar foods = both prevention of insulin spikes
Thats the whole point you want to do when you someone has a low insulin sensitivity. keep insulin low.

@Hgreen56 I agree, but I think the best way to improve insulin sensitivity is to lower FAO. So this would naturally rule out low carb diets as a effective tool for controlling insulin resistance. People who eat low carb ketogenic diets are losing weight because of increased FAO, not because they're improving insulin resistance. In fact, their insulin insensitivity actually gets worse. Burning fat for fuel shuts down the oxidative metabolism, you're losing weight because of high stress hormones. There's been a few studies (a couple on this forum I believe) showing low carb diets increase the chance of diabetes, heart disease, and cancer despite subjects losing weight on the diet. This is due to the deterioration caused by cortisol.

i agree with you, but when you have low insulin sensitivity and you jumping straight on a high carb low fat wagon, you have a hard time following this diet.
Also you do your health more harm than good this way be-cease you body is freaking out all day long and release tons of stress hormones.
And this makes people fat and develop more health problems.
And what i noticed here is, when people got these health problems, they try to solve this problems with all kinds of vitamins, herbs and other weird supps to fight the symptoms. (which they usually fail as well )

On the other hand, low carb high fat for long time is also not the answer and it makes insulin sensitivity worse.
But that is exactly what most people do, staying way to long on this type of diets and not knowing whats happening under the hood until they suddenly become ill and have all sorts of health issues. than they go searching on the web for answers, getting to know peat who tells them that dietary fat is the cause of all there problems, so people jump straight on the low fat wagon and BAM! problems getting worse and worse becease the body cant handle all the carbs in ones.

The best approach in my view is,
First find out how insulin sensitivity you are.
Is it very low, and so you feeling very good on high fat, low carb diet style (you have steady and stable energy levels and not feeling fatigue)
Than start there, and eat some less kcal than your maintenance levels.
This way you burn way more body fat than ignore your insulin sensitivity level and jumping on a low fat wagon (as that study states above)
This way you not only losing body fat but also automatically increasing you're insulin sensitivity. (be-cease you lose body fat, not because you eat lot of fat)
When you lose body fat, and so your insulin sensitivity rise, you can slowly increase your carbs and reduce your fat intake.
This speeding up insulin sensitivity again, and also increasing your metabolic rate more.
And so you go further and further and further to a point you can handle high carbs meals fine without any trouble. (you have steady and stable energy levels and not feeling fatigue like you did on a low carb, high fat diet. This because you are now insulin sensitive again)

Btw Keep an eye on your body weight because the more it drops, the less kcal you need. With other words, you need to decrease your kcal intake once in a while to stay under your maintenance level for burning more bodyfat)

This way the body can slowly adapting to use carbs as primary fuel source.
This way less stressful than jumping in a low fat diet in ones.

i know my English is a little crappy but i hope this makes some sense.

 

[Recoen]

GLUT4 is the only known insulin dependent transporter. Most transport is achieved by K influx (and Na efflux). This goes back to Dr Gilbert Ling’s work on the cytoplasm structure. So fixing the cytoplasm structure is important.
Of course the Randle effect comes into play and other things that inhibit glucose metabolism.

 

[Jessie]

ok, you have a point there. but they eat high fat + sugar foods = both prevention of insulin spikes
Thats the whole point you want to do when you someone has a low insulin sensitivity. keep insulin low.



i agree with you, but when you have low insulin sensitivity and you jumping straight on a high carb low fat wagon, you have a hard time following this diet.
Also you do your health more harm than good this way be-cease you body is freaking out all day long and release tons of stress hormones.
And this makes people fat and develop more health problems.
And what i noticed here is, when people got these health problems, they try to solve this problems with all kinds of vitamins, herbs and other weird supps to fight the symptoms. (which they usually fail as well )

On the other hand, low carb high fat for long time is also not the answer and it makes insulin sensitivity worse.
But that is exactly what most people do, staying way to long on this type of diets and not knowing whats happening under the hood until they suddenly become ill and have all sorts of health issues. than they go searching on the web for answers, getting to know peat who tells them that dietary fat is the cause of all there problems, so people jump straight on the low fat wagon and BAM! problems getting worse and worse becease the body cant handle all the carbs in ones.

The best approach in my view is,
First find out how insulin sensitivity you are.
Is it very low, and so you feeling very good on high fat, low carb diet style (you have steady and stable energy levels and not feeling fatigue)
Than start there, and eat some less kcal than your maintenance levels.
This way you burn way more body fat than ignore your insulin sensitivity level and jumping on a low fat wagon (as that study states above)
This way you not only losing body fat but also automatically increasing you're insulin sensitivity. (be-cease you lose body fat, not because you eat lot of fat)
When you lose body fat, and so your insulin sensitivity rise, you can slowly increase your carbs and reduce your fat intake.
This speeding up insulin sensitivity again, and also increasing your metabolic rate more.
And so you go further and further and further to a point you can handle high carbs meals fine without any trouble. (you have steady and stable energy levels and not feeling fatigue like you did on a low carb, high fat diet. This because you are now insulin sensitive again)

Btw Keep an eye on your body weight because the more it drops, the less kcal you need. With other words, you need to decrease your kcal intake once in a while to stay under your maintenance level for burning more bodyfat)

This way the body can slowly adapting to use carbs as primary fuel source.
This way less stressful than jumping in a low fat diet in ones.

i know my English is a little crappy but i hope this makes some sense.

Yeah I agree, it can help some people if they ease into higher sugar diets. Slowly increasing sugar will give the body time to adapt while also inhibiting the hypercortisolnemia, which is likely playing a huge factor in their insulin resistance. It can also have the added benefit of slowly adapting one's own palate to a different diet.

For me, dietary fat is incredibly addicting. I didn't realize how much until I left low carb. In fact I think it's worse then sugar. I craved all sorts of steaks, eggs, and butter when going high carb.

And I can't ever remember a time when I craved sugar like that. Long time ago when I was a SAD eater I would crave candy, like Reese and stuff. But that's not really sugar either. It's a mixture of sugar, starch, and fat.

 

[Vinny]

GLUT4 is the only known insulin dependent transporter. Most transport is achieved by K influx (and Na efflux). This goes back to Dr Gilbert Ling’s work on the cytoplasm structure. So fixing the cytoplasm structure is important.
Of course the Randle effect comes into play and other things that inhibit glucose metabolism.

And how do we fix the cytoplasm structure?
Thanks

 

[Recoen]

And how do we fix the cytoplasm structure?
Thanks

Ling says the cardinal adsorbents include ATP, Ca+2, etc. Proteins then react with the cardinal adsorbents. He emphasizes ATP because it’s so ubiquitous. And says ATP is the cardinal adsorbent that controls water polarization. So the volume and shape of the cell depends on ATP.
He also says Mg+2 probably works as a synergistic CA with ATP for water polarization.
“ATP as a cardinal adsorbent keeps neighboring anionic sites at a c-value favoring K+ adsorption”
I highly recommend his book, “In Search of the Physical Basis of Life”.

 

[opson123]

ok, you have a point there. but they eat high fat + sugar foods = both prevention of insulin spikes
Thats the whole point you want to do when you someone has a low insulin sensitivity. keep insulin low.



i agree with you, but when you have low insulin sensitivity and you jumping straight on a high carb low fat wagon, you have a hard time following this diet.
Also you do your health more harm than good this way be-cease you body is freaking out all day long and release tons of stress hormones.
And this makes people fat and develop more health problems.
And what i noticed here is, when people got these health problems, they try to solve this problems with all kinds of vitamins, herbs and other weird supps to fight the symptoms. (which they usually fail as well )

On the other hand, low carb high fat for long time is also not the answer and it makes insulin sensitivity worse.
But that is exactly what most people do, staying way to long on this type of diets and not knowing whats happening under the hood until they suddenly become ill and have all sorts of health issues. than they go searching on the web for answers, getting to know peat who tells them that dietary fat is the cause of all there problems, so people jump straight on the low fat wagon and BAM! problems getting worse and worse becease the body cant handle all the carbs in ones.

The best approach in my view is,
First find out how insulin sensitivity you are.
Is it very low, and so you feeling very good on high fat, low carb diet style (you have steady and stable energy levels and not feeling fatigue)
Than start there, and eat some less kcal than your maintenance levels.
This way you burn way more body fat than ignore your insulin sensitivity level and jumping on a low fat wagon (as that study states above)
This way you not only losing body fat but also automatically increasing you're insulin sensitivity. (be-cease you lose body fat, not because you eat lot of fat)
When you lose body fat, and so your insulin sensitivity rise, you can slowly increase your carbs and reduce your fat intake.
This speeding up insulin sensitivity again, and also increasing your metabolic rate more.
And so you go further and further and further to a point you can handle high carbs meals fine without any trouble. (you have steady and stable energy levels and not feeling fatigue like you did on a low carb, high fat diet. This because you are now insulin sensitive again)

Btw Keep an eye on your body weight because the more it drops, the less kcal you need. With other words, you need to decrease your kcal intake once in a while to stay under your maintenance level for burning more bodyfat)

This way the body can slowly adapting to use carbs as primary fuel source.
This way less stressful than jumping in a low fat diet in ones.

i know my English is a little crappy but i hope this makes some sense.

What would be your approach for someone who is lean, but has poor insulin sensitivity? In this case you can't really improve your insulin sensitivity by losing fat as there is almost nothing to lose. Is it the same as with overweight people, slowly decrease dietary fat and increase carbs, but just with maintenance calories?

 

[Hgreen56]

What would be your approach for someone who is lean, but has poor insulin sensitivity? In this case you can't really improve your insulin sensitivity by losing fat as there is almost nothing to lose. Is it the same as with overweight people, slowly decrease dietary fat and increase carbs, but just with maintenance calories?

Short answer: Yes because you don't really have other options anymore.

Long answer:
Study's proof dat high fat intake make insulin sensitivity worse so decreasing this slowly would be my first approach, whether i was fat or lean.
Of someone is already lean than burning more body-fat to on healthy body fat levels makes no sense.
So yess if someone still eating a high fat diet but is already lean, then slowly replace fats for carbs and eat at maintenance calories. (or a little more if you want a good recovery from sports, heavy labor work or from other stressful situations)

Exercising or doing something physical every day is also great thing to improve it.
I guess if a person is lean but still have a bad insulin sensitivity than big change his activity level is low and he is sitting all day behind a desk or something.

Just try and see what happens.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I think tracking micronutrients can be very helpful. A B1 (and other micro) deficiency is directly tied to anorexia and a decreased desire to eat.
Prevalence of thiamin deficiency in anorexia nervosa - PubMed

Thiamine deficiency induces anorexia by inhibiting hypothalamic AMPK - PubMed
You need to have enough micros to get glucose all the way through glycolysis, TCA, and ETC to recover the most ATP. If you don’t you end up eating organic acids in the urine. This is also assuming you’re actually absorbing all the macros and micros you take in.

For fat loss, in a recent podcast Georgi recommended fixing your hormonal environment to what it was (or should have been) during puberty/ early teenage years. He suggested pregnenolone 100mg/d with 5-10mg DHEA for a cycle then drop to 30mg and 5mg.
Also using 100mg progesterone for 1-2mos if you have any fibrotic conditions.

I think there is a lot to the idea of "recreating the youth hormonal environment" that Haidut mentions. I mentioned a study cited by Lyle MacDonald in another thread-

The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men - PubMed

Anabolic Steroids and Muscle Growth

The interesting point of the study is that the men getting testosterone built more muscle (6.6 pounds) in 10 weeks than the men doing weight training (4.4 pounds). Training + Test gave results a bit higher than the gains of the other protocols added together (13 pounds).

In goes a long way in supporting Haidut's point.

Personally, I have been experimenting with PROG + DHEA in doses that Haidut said his bodybuilder friend recommended. After 4 weeks, I have noticed my biceps have bulked back up to the size they were when I did regular weight training, although I have done zero training the past few weeks.

 

[Recoen]

I think there is a lot to the idea of "recreating the youth hormonal environment" that Haidut mentions. I mentioned a study cited by Lyle MacDonald in another thread-

The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men - PubMed

Anabolic Steroids and Muscle Growth

The interesting point of the study is that the men getting testosterone built more muscle (6.6 pounds) in 10 weeks than the men doing weight training (4.4 pounds). Training + Test gave results a bit higher than the gains of the other protocols added together (13 pounds).

In goes a long way in supporting Haidut's point.

Personally, I have been experimenting with PROG + DHEA in doses that Haidut said his bodybuilder friend recommended. After 4 weeks, I have noticed my biceps have bulked back up to the size they were when I did regular weight training, although I have done zero training the past few weeks.

Have you noticed any fat loss too?

 

[tankasnowgod]

Have you noticed any fat loss too?

Not yet, but weight hasn't changed, so maybe there is "recomp" going on. Or maybe it takes more time. I was planning this experiment for at least 10 weeks, and with no negatives so far, will at least go that far, then reevaluate.

 

[Hgreen56]

I think there is a lot to the idea of "recreating the youth hormonal environment" that Haidut mentions. I mentioned a study cited by Lyle MacDonald in another thread-

The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men - PubMed

Anabolic Steroids and Muscle Growth

The interesting point of the study is that the men getting testosterone built more muscle (6.6 pounds) in 10 weeks than the men doing weight training (4.4 pounds). Training + Test gave results a bit higher than the gains of the other protocols added together (13 pounds).

In goes a long way in supporting Haidut's point.

Personally, I have been experimenting with PROG + DHEA in doses that Haidut said his bodybuilder friend recommended. After 4 weeks, I have noticed my biceps have bulked back up to the size they were when I did regular weight training, although I have done zero training the past few weeks.

i have read here and there that some people take progesterone, and ray recommend it sometimes.
But i don't understand why becease its a female hormone for regulation of ovulation and menstruation.
why do men want this drug?

 

[tankasnowgod]

i have read here and there that some people take progesterone, and ray recommend it sometimes.
But i don't understand why becease its a female hormone for regulation of ovulation and menstruation.
why do men want this drug?

This has been discussed many times on the forum, if really interested search the forum for Progesterone. "Progesterone Anti-Catabolic" is a good one.

 

[Fidelio]

@Hgreen56 I agree, but I think the best way to improve insulin sensitivity is to lower FAO. So this would naturally rule out low carb diets as a effective tool for controlling insulin resistance. People who eat low carb ketogenic diets are losing weight because of increased FAO, not because they're improving insulin resistance. In fact, their insulin insensitivity actually gets worse. Burning fat for fuel shuts down the oxidative metabolism, you're losing weight because of high stress hormones. There's been a few studies (a couple on this forum I believe) showing low carb diets increase the chance of diabetes, heart disease, and cancer despite subjects losing weight on the diet. This is due to the deterioration caused by cortisol.

The best way to improve insulin sensitivity is to loose excess fat and gain muscle. The best method to achieve that is whichever one is sustainable. Low carb, high fat diets temporarily impair insulin sensitivity but if that’s a sustainable weight loss method for the user that’s a fine method to use. Insulin sensitivity is quickly restored after gradually re-introducing carbs.

 

[Recoen]

Not yet, but weight hasn't changed, so maybe there is "recomp" going on. Or maybe it takes more time. I was planning this experiment for at least 10 weeks, and with no negatives so far, will at least go that far, then reevaluate.

Are you using idealabs stressnon and pansterone? If yes, are you using them on your navel like @haidut has discussed? Or by mouth? If the navel route are you taking slightly less than the doses I listed above?

I hope your experiment goes well!

 

[baccheion]

Vitamin B5 is associated with fat burning and decreased insulin sensitivity. Another way to increase sensitivity may be to lessen B5 and increase B1 + B3.

 

[Fidelio]

Vitamin B5 is associated with fat burning and decreased insulin sensitivity. Another way to increase sensitivity may be to lessen B5 and increase B1 + B3.

This is the problem with raypeatforum. You lose the forest for a spec of dirt.
The people with the best insulin sensitivity are those who are lean, muscular and physically active.
Not the people who are obsessing about b5 to b1 ratios.

 

[Recoen]

This is the problem with raypeatforum. You lose the forest for a spec of dirt.
The people with the best insulin sensitivity are those who are lean, muscular and physically active.
Not the people who are obsessing about b5 to b1 ratios.

Add the hyper-focus on insulin vs K/Na.

 

[Cloudhands]

This is the problem with raypeatforum. You lose the forest for a spec of dirt.
The people with the best insulin sensitivity are those who are lean, muscular and physically active.
Not the people who are obsessing about b5 to b1 ratios.

"For a spec of dirt" made me giggle lmao, b5/b1 ratios lmaoooo

 

[PaRa]

I think there is a lot to the idea of "recreating the youth hormonal environment" that Haidut mentions. I mentioned a study cited by Lyle MacDonald in another thread-

The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men - PubMed

Anabolic Steroids and Muscle Growth

The interesting point of the study is that the men getting testosterone built more muscle (6.6 pounds) in 10 weeks than the men doing weight training (4.4 pounds). Training + Test gave results a bit higher than the gains of the other protocols added together (13 pounds).

In goes a long way in supporting Haidut's point.

Personally, I have been experimenting with PROG + DHEA in doses that Haidut said his bodybuilder friend recommended. After 4 weeks, I have noticed my biceps have bulked back up to the size they were when I did regular weight training, although I have done zero training the past few weeks.

Just more glycogen lmao