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What's Better - Real Bone Broth Gelatin Or Powdered/Instant

Discussion in 'Diet, Recipes' started by DMF, Jan 12, 2018.

  1. DMF

    DMF Member

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    How would a cup or so of "real" homemade gelatin compare to "quick" instant offered by the various well-known brands often mentioned here - sodium content/nutrition content etc. I feel dramatic effects from batches I make at home whereas instant doesn't. Homemade causes me to sleep deeper, instant gives me sluggishness
     
  2. noordinary

    noordinary Member

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    I had the same experience as you did, more so collagen hydrolysate (by Great Lakes Gelatin company) made me feel worse. I did not get any reactions to it like upset stomach, but overtime my hairs lost some shine and i did not see all the good things i experienced with bone broth, more so i felt kind of more tired with it.
    I can't say much about their gelatin, because i use it only in marshmallows and alike once a week no more.
    I dropped collagen hydrolysate after 4-5 months and got back to making bone broth, and i see (hairs,nails) and feel the difference.
    It also tastes amazing and is so nourishing especially during winter months.
     
  3. raypeatclips

    raypeatclips Member

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    Food sources are always more complete and beneficial. Peat has said before "coffee is more than just caffeine" and he has said "liver is more than just vitamin a" I believe. In the same regard I think, following the trend, and I don't mean to speak for Peat, he might say "bone broths are more than just gelatin"
     
  4. Dave Clark

    Dave Clark Member

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    Yes, perhaps the chondroitins, etc. that were spoken about in another thread.
     
  5. ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

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    i've had great success with collagen and so have people I've recommended it to.
     
  6. noordinary

    noordinary Member

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    Here is Great Lakes Beef Gelatin vs Beef Collagen Hydrolysate
    comparison - mine, data from Great Lakes
    http://greatlakesgelatin.com/business/GelatinSpecs_As_of_March2017.pdf
    http://greatlakesgelatin.com/business/GelatinSpecs_Hydro_as_of_2014.pdf
    Screen Shot 2018-01-13 at 10.33.11 AM.png
    It's weird they skipped Heavy metals total for hydrolysate, or is it to high to display? Because Heavy metals for Gelatin are pretty high.
    Fluoride concentration is disturbing as well.
    Protein for Collagen Hydrolysate:
    Screen Shot 2018-01-13 at 9.53.58 AM.png
    Protein content for beef bone broth
    from Bone Broth Micro nutrient Panels
    Beef_Panel_large.png
    How is that: 2 tbsp dry 12 g protein vs 8 ounces watery broth 8 g?
    My broth looks like that (petty thick):
    IMG_9322.jpg
    And a while ago i found a thread
    Collagen Hydrolysate Vs. Gelatin
    Hey @Travis is it really the case? Or that other Travis is spreading misinformation? :)
    And do you think hydrolization process may introduce extra heavy metals and what not to the final product?
     
  7. Kunder

    Kunder Member

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    Holy crap, only 8 grams of protein in 227 grams of broth, that is shockingly low. Admitedly it has a high water content for sure, but one would expect more of the good stuff.

    By the way, that broth you're showing looks preety murky and greasy, almost like coconut oil. Broth should be almost translucent, and have minimum fat.
     
  8. Travis

    Travis Member

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    This seems to be a more‐or‐less accurate statement, but the part about peptides absorbing faster than free amino acids is a bit surprising. I don't know if that is true, but I can see it happening because free amino acids will have a larger charge to mass ratio; this could make them more polar and keep them more in the water phase or ionically attracted to other food components.

    When the peptide bond is broken, by either an enzyme of a strong acid, one H₂O molecule is added: a OH⁻ group must go on the C‐end of the amino acid, and a H⁺ or two on the N‐end. The term 'hydrolyzed' is often used by chemists, but other words can also rightly be used and can be more intuitive (i.e. cleaved). Proteolysis is sometimes used as a verb to describe this event, and different enzymes prefferentially cleave peptide bonds at different amino acids ⟶ leading to different fragments.

    We'd have to look into the extent of hydrolysis to get an idea of the peptide length. You'd almost think the length would follow a normal distribution (curve), centered around ~ten‐peptide fragments. But since the length of hydrolysis determines the length of the peptides, you'd be certain that it would be highly variable between product types—and perhaps even between manufacturers of the same product.

    Since all that are needed are enzymes, you wouldn't expect heavy metals. However! as mentioned previously, strong acids also hydrolyze proteins and could theoretically be used for hydrolysis. If so, you could perhaps anticipate metal contamination if metal reaction vessels are used. Of course in laboratory settings all vessels would all be glass, but large‐scale industrial processes sometimes use metallic vats.
     
  9. noordinary

    noordinary Member

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    R u serious? 8 g of protein in 1 cup of liquid is low? It’s like milk at 1g per oz. And it’s pretty good considering the amino acids profine of such protein. I would say 12g of protein per dry mass (less than 10% moister) is not that high actually.
     
  10. Kunder

    Kunder Member

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    Yes except milk is liquid and this is a solid mass. And milk is exactly 3.5 grams of protein per 100 grams, which would make total milk protein content identical to this broth. And that is quite low for a solid food.

    By the way i dont understand how you can function mixing the antiquated ounces with grams in one sentence.
     
  11. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Guru, thanks for collecting those!

    It contains quite a lot of lead and other contaminants indeed.
    The calculation can be simplified:
    1ppm = 10^(-6). However! :ss To convert grams to mcg you have to multiply by.. 10^6. So you can just take their suggested serving 12g and multiply by the respective proportion of the contaminant and you end up with the mcg value.
    Ex. 12*1.5 (lead) = 18mcg
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1475014/pdf/envhper00496-0066.pdf#page=4
     
  12. noordinary

    noordinary Member

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    You probably are not from US.
    1 cup = 8 oz fluid it may be any amount of grams, depending on the substance.
    Amagine a tea cup: fill it up with sugar, fill another with OJ, fill another with cream, fill another with mercury (just kidding, do not do it) and so on, they all will be 1 cup (tea cup) but different by weight in grams (the one with the mercury will be the heaviest about 1 lb per 8 oz)
    Broth looks solid and is solid in the fridge, because of the amino acids quilities it contains, at room temperature its mostly liquid, warmed up its liquid like sipping tea.
     
  13. noordinary

    noordinary Member

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    Thank you, as always.
    Any hints on why flouride increases several fold after hydrolysis?
     
  14. noordinary

    noordinary Member

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    Yet to see a guy who complains about antique ounces ordering a pint of beer in places all over the world.
    I guess context is everything indeed LOL
     
  15. noordinary

    noordinary Member

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    You can spot a person who never made bone broth himself at first sight.
    The broth pictured would be considered pretty translucent for the broth, it also has almost zero fat.
    Here is how (specially for you @Kunder cause you obviously have no idea):
    IMG_9316.jpg
    after broth is cooled in the fridge all the fat is on top
    IMG_9317.jpg
    you can remove it using a spoon
    IMG_9318.jpg
    and wipe with paper towel at the end to get rid of any fat left
    IMG_9319.jpg
    the little white sediment on top is not fat it's some kind of mineral sediment
    The fat in this particular batch is semi solid (after cooling) because it was made out of beef feet cut alongside the bones
    IMG_9327.jpg
    and probably contained more mono-unsaturted fats from the bone marrow.
     
  16. Travis

    Travis Member

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    If it can be found in collagen, I think you would have to assume that this comes from the cow bones.

    Although flourine gas (F₂) is highly reactive, the fluoride ion (F⁻) is much less so. However! we all know the fluoride ion (F⁻) is still dangerous and should be kept out of food. I wonder if this could add to a protein somehow, perhaps on hydroxyl groups.. .

    [​IMG]Fluorotyrosine: a fluoridated amino acid!

    I wonder if any of these funky fluorinated amino acids can be found in hydrolyzed gelatin. The fluoride ion (F⁻) can also ionically bind the amino
    groups (–NH₃⁺) of amino acids, so any fluoride released from cow bones during acid hydrolysis could be expected to bind to the peptides in two ways. Although phosphate, calcium, and hydroxide make up the majority of bone, I don't think any of these would bind proteins as strongly as F⁻ (with the exception being O‐phosphorylated tyrosine, serine, and threonine) and would be safe even if they had.

    Since fluoride is found in hydrolyzed collagen, I'm getting the impression that acids are used to separate connective tissue from cow bones during routine production; I am also getting the impression that any residual F⁻ was one time fluoroapatite crystals of cow bone.
     
  17. Travis

    Travis Member

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    I find the matter-of-fact tone of this article's title somewhat amusing:

    Evans, Robert John. "Fluorine storage in cattle bones." Journal of Dairy Science (1938)
     
  18. noordinary

    noordinary Member

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    It was the first thing that came to mind, but:
    Collagen hydrolysante is made out of gelatin, not directly from the hides (but even if it was the raw material are the beef hides). And gelatin is made out of hides, not bones, and hides are separated manually at the slaughter facilities.
    Do you have any other thoughts?
     
  19. noordinary

    noordinary Member

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  20. Travis

    Travis Member

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    David Baziwane as late as 2003 indicates the provenance of commercial gelatin to be:

    'Gelatin is usually derived from sources of collagen that are available both in quantity and at a reasonable price for the manufacturer. Commercially viable sources include mainly demineralized cattle bone (ossein) and bovine and pig skin.' ―Baziwane

    Which is hydrolyzed either by an acid or an alkaline solution:

    'Commonly used temperatures are 55°C, 60°C, 70°C, and 80–90°C from the first to the final extractions, respectively. There are basically two processes by which collagen is hydrolyzed into gelatin:

    i. The acid process, as described in detail by Reich et al. (1992), is mainly used with pigskin, marine fish skin, and sometimes bone raw materials. Here, collagen is acidified to about pH 4 and then heated stepwise from 50°C to boiling point to denature and solubilize the collagen into type A gelatin.

    ii. The alkali process is mainly used on bovine hide (Cole and Roberts, 1996). Before extraction, collagen is subjected to a caustic soda or liming process, which quickly hydrolyzes the asparagines and glutamine side chains to glutamic and aspartic acid (Veis, 1964), with the result that gelatin has a traditional isoionic point between four and five.

    Step 2: The extracted gelatin solution is then filtered through diatomaceous earth to remove suspended insolubles such as lipids or unhydrolyzed collagen fibers. The gelatin is then further purified through ion exchange or ultrafiltration columns, which remove inorganic salts and also adjusts the pH to a range of 5.0–5.8 that is suitable for sale.

    Step 3: The final stage is dehydration (mainly through spray drying), sterilization, and drying. These three unit processes are performed as quickly as possible to minimize the loss of physical–chemical properties of the resultant gelatin. The obtained product is then subjected to qualitative analysis tests, namely, bloom strength, viscosity, composition, and microbiological tests.' ―Baziwane

    Of course acid hydrolysis of bone would lead to most fluoride and toxic metals: the F⁻ of course coming from the bone and perhaps some metal ions from the tank. I think it would be more economical to hydrolzye the gelatin further at this point; commercial 'hydrolyzed' gelatin simply being allowed to react further, perhaps even with an additional enzymatic step. I think we'd have to look at patents to get a better idea . . . unless you've heard anything directly from the producer?

    Baziwane, David. "Gelatin: the paramount food additive." Food Reviews International (2003)
     
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