What's Better - Real Bone Broth Gelatin Or Powdered/Instant

[noordinary]

David Baziwane as late as 2003 indicates the provenance of commercial gelatin to be:

'Gelatin is usually derived from sources of collagen that are available both in quantity and at a reasonable price for the manufacturer. Commercially viable sources include mainly demineralized cattle bone (ossein) and bovine and pig skin.' ―Baziwane​

Which is hydrolyzed either by an acid or an alkaline solution:

'Commonly used temperatures are 55°C, 60°C, 70°C, and 80–90°C from the first to the final extractions, respectively. There are basically two processes by which collagen is hydrolyzed into gelatin:

i. The acid process, as described in detail by Reich et al. (1992), is mainly used with pigskin, marine fish skin, and sometimes bone raw materials. Here, collagen is acidified to about pH 4 and then heated stepwise from 50°C to boiling point to denature and solubilize the collagen into type A gelatin.

ii. The alkali process is mainly used on bovine hide (Cole and Roberts, 1996). Before extraction, collagen is subjected to a caustic soda or liming process, which quickly hydrolyzes the asparagines and glutamine side chains to glutamic and aspartic acid (Veis, 1964), with the result that gelatin has a traditional isoionic point between four and five.

Step 2: The extracted gelatin solution is then filtered through diatomaceous earth to remove suspended insolubles such as lipids or unhydrolyzed collagen fibers. The gelatin is then further purified through ion exchange or ultrafiltration columns, which remove inorganic salts and also adjusts the pH to a range of 5.0–5.8 that is suitable for sale.

Step 3: The final stage is dehydration (mainly through spray drying), sterilization, and drying. These three unit processes are performed as quickly as possible to minimize the loss of physical–chemical properties of the resultant gelatin. The obtained product is then subjected to qualitative analysis tests, namely, bloom strength, viscosity, composition, and microbiological tests.' ―Baziwane​

Of course acid hydrolysis of bone would lead to most fluoride and toxic metals: the F⁻ of course coming from the bone and perhaps some metal ions from the tank. I think it would be more economical to hydrolzye the gelatin further at this point; commercial 'hydrolyzed' gelatin simply being allowed to react further, perhaps even with an additional enzymatic step. I think we'd have to look at patents to get a better idea . . . unless you've heard anything directly from the producer?

Baziwane, David. "Gelatin: the paramount food additive." Food Reviews International (2003)​

On the certificates of analyses from Great Lakes Gelatin company it is stated that both their gelatin and collagen hydrolysate are made out of beef hides.
I suspect contamination either at enzematic hydrolysis step because commercial enzymes are bacterial sourced (and maybe contaminated with heavy metals when produced from bacteria) or at sterilization step (how do they sterilize? high temperatures? chemicals?)

 

[jyb]

I see that average intake of lead is 100mcg/day. With a dozen mcg per serving of Great Lakes gelatin, that could result in above average consumption of lead if you take more than a serving per day. Not great...

RP wrote about heavy metal contamination from the bones. However as mentioned above, Great Lakes beef is made out of beed hides.

CoA for a L-Glycine powder: https://www.bulkpowders.co.uk/assets/coa/L-Glycine14122016.pdf
At lead 3ppm, that's double the Great Lakes gelatin.

 

[Travis]

Perhaps Great Lakes Gelatin uses fluoridated water? I know that Michigan was one of the first states to fluoridate, and that Milwaukee is heavily fluoridated (I did live there for a year).

When they say it's made from 'beef hides,' do they mean beef hides exclusively? Those people from Chicago like to play semantic games, I do know this (lol; Italians!).

But I did find this, taken from a book called Gelatine Handbook: Theory and Industrial Practice. Certainly no Pulitzer Prize‐winning find here, but it has pictures and gives the impression that the gelatine hydrolysate could be made directly after the gelatine itself—perhaps blurring the lines in‐between steps. It also indicates which enzymes are often used, where our the amazing bromelain and papain make an appearance:

And we have a stainless steel tank, of course (I can almost taste the nickel from here.. .)

Great Lakes Collagen is from Chicago, with an address in a commercial district. The address given by their website does not appear to be the production facility—probably a low‐ to mid‐rise office building.

But I see no indication of elevated fluoride levels by their data sheets alone, which only tells me that it's 'less than 50·ppm.' Why they chose this as a cut‐off point I don't know (perhaps an FDA upper‐limit), but I have yet to find the F⁻ concentration.

I can see some enrichment over the tapwater concentration, but I think you could only expect a two‐ to three‐fold enrichment. The F⁻ is highly polar and would stick to proteins, but the hide minerals would counteract this to a degree and the waste proteins (i.e. keratins) would have their own fluoride‐sponging effect.

[Fluorosorption does not appear once after a Google search. I am claiming this word; this is my frickin' word. Now if anyone ever Googles this word they will find this.]

 

[noordinary]

But I see no indication of elevated fluoride levels by their data sheets alone, which only tells me that it's 'less than 50·ppm.' Why they chose this as a cut‐off point I don't know (perhaps an FDA upper‐limit), but I have yet to find the F⁻ concentration.

from FDA web site https://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodborneIllnessContaminants/Metals/ucm557424.htm
100 ppb = 0.1 ppm and it is <1.5 ppm in certificate of analysis from Great Lakes Gelatin
It is stated on the packaging that they produce gelatin according with US Pharmacopeia standards.
Here are the standards
http://www.usp.org/sites/default/files/usp/document/harmonization/excipients/gelatin.pdf
from Gelatin | USP
Acceptance criteria:
Irone 30 ppm
Chromium 10 ppm
Zink 30 ppm
and that is it as far as metals.
Collagen Hydrolysate will not fit those criteria, only Gelatin will.
I did not find USP standard for Collagen Hydrolysate, it probably do not exist.

 

[omnivoracious]

I'm a big fan of using all three. I buy bone broth, gelatin, and collagen hydrolysate. I make jello, oxtail broth and chicken feet broth. I also add collagen hydrolysate to my broth when consuming.

 

[Travis]

View attachment 7991
from FDA web site https://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodborneIllnessContaminants/Metals/ucm557424.htm
100 ppb = 0.1 ppm and it is <1.5 ppm in certificate of analysis from Great Lakes Gelatin
It is stated on the packaging that they produce gelatin according with US Pharmacopeia standards.
Here are the standards
http://www.usp.org/sites/default/files/usp/document/harmonization/excipients/gelatin.pdf
from Gelatin | USP
Acceptance criteria:
Irone 30 ppm
Chromium 10 ppm
Zink 30 ppm
and that is it as far as metals.
Collagen Hydrolysate will not fit those criteria, only Gelatin will.
I did not find USP standard for Collagen Hydrolysate, it probably do not exist.

It is weird that it doesn't exactly seem to match the USP upper limits, and I don't know what to make of it. A concentration of <50·ppm could of course mean anything from 0 to 49.999999·ppm. The data sheet on the collagen has fluoride equal to 1.4 – 3.7·ppm, which is about a twofold enrichment over Chicago tapwater. I think this seems realistic for hide‐collagen created in the presence of fluoridated tapwater. If most F⁻ ions are ionically bound to amino groups they could probably be removed with water. If hydrolyzed gelatin doesn't gel, then you might think a person could reduce the F⁻ levels through soaking–draining.

 

[Koveras]

This seems to be a more‐or‐less accurate statement, but the part about peptides absorbing faster than free amino acids is a bit surprising. I don't know if that is true, but I can see it happening because free amino acids will have a larger charge to mass ratio; this could make them more polar and keep them more in the water phase or ionically attracted to other food components.

Peptide transporter 1

"SLC15A1 is localized to the brush border membrane of the intestinal epithelium and mediates the uptake of di- and tripeptides from the lumen into the enterocytes. This protein plays an important role in the uptake and digestion of dietary proteins."

 

[Travis]

Peptide transporter 1

"SLC15A1 is localized to the brush border membrane of the intestinal epithelium and mediates the uptake of di- and tripeptides from the lumen into the enterocytes. This protein plays an important role in the uptake and digestion of dietary proteins."

Could depend on the free amino acid and the tripeptide. I wonder if histidine would be more absorbable than triglutamate! ―a very polar peptide.

The blood–brain barrier seems to admit nonpolar amino acids more effectively. Deamidation of glutamine–proline regions in grain proteins lessens their antigenicity, and its tempting to think this has something to do with solubility. The most immunogenic proteins, the prolamins, are found in the alcohol fraction. Perhaps it's the low water solubility of these proteins which allow absorption before they are broken down, or keeps them in the lipid phase away from the soluble enymes?

Sure the proline bonds matter the most, but the glutamine does seems to play in important role in gluten antigenicity somehow.. . (solubility?)

 

[Travis]

Someone can read a bit about peptide solubility here. After synthesizing a few different ocatapeptides, it was found that they have different absorption kinetics—as you might expect. The more lipophillic ones seem to be preferentially absorbed in the liver; this is intuitive since the liver is known for its tryptophan, tyrosine, and leucine metabolism. Also, the more lipophillic saturated fatty acids partition a bit more towards the liver while the unsaturated ones tend to be packed more into chylomicrons (lymph). This could actually be the only reason why saturated fatty acids slightly 'raise cholesterol,' it could simply do this by going through the liver. I don't think anyone hypothesizes that saturated fatty acids actually increase cholesterol synthesis (but leucine and zinc can), so there seems to be a need for a more physical explanation.

 

[Glassy]

Try making jello out of fresh pineapple juice and gelatine powder. It doesn’t set properly. I’m assuming it’s the bromelain (protease) breaking down the gelatine structure. I’ve not tried with high concentrations of gelatine yet but I’m interested to try. I’ve been making some very rubbery lollies from gelatine and blackcurrent cordial.

 

[cyclops]

Try making jello out of fresh pineapple juice and gelatine powder. It doesn’t set properly. I’m assuming it’s the bromelain (protease) breaking down the gelatine structure. I’ve not tried with high concentrations of gelatine yet but I’m interested to try. I’ve been making some very rubbery lollies from gelatine and blackcurrent cordial.

I've made gelatin with 100% pineapple juice from the store but it is pasteurized and it worked fine. Fresh juice must be very different.

 

[Travis]

Bromelain does have confirmed collegenase activity, and it's even used in dermatology to debride skin. I think it could be bromelain which leads to 'pineapple sores' in the mouth.

But pasteurization can certainly denature enzymes. If I recall correctly, bromelain has internal disulfide bonds which are even sensive to redox balance.

I think you could expect fresh pineapple to dissolve even fully‐set gelatin after a few days.

 

[DMF]

Homemade bone broth gelatin helped me to sleep very heavily, and my digestion improved greatly - overall a boon to my health/well-being, whereas I'm still not experiencing any of that with hydrolysate.

 

[omnivoracious]

Homemade bone broth gelatin helped me to sleep very heavily, and my digestion improved greatly - overall a boon to my health/well-being, whereas I'm still not experiencing any of that with hydrolysate.

That's interesting. After watching the Chris Masterjohn video podcast on Glycine I tried both Glycine on its own and Hydolysate as it contains Glycine. The hydorlysate works better for me so I take some in my evening shake before going to bed. It's been working really nicely. Perhaps your bone broth simply has more Glycine and that is the reason it's working so well for you.

 

[DMF]

As I stated in another post, powdered gelatins seem to contain an astounding amount of sodium. It'd be interesting to know, an analysis of the amino acid/nutirent/etc. content the gelatin I make from beef bones.
What's likely to be present in higher/smaller amount compared to powdered.
My guess is sodium, for instance, is much lower in home "brew".

 

[Glassy]

I’ve been adding powdered gelatine to my coffees when I remember to and been adding the powdered Gelatin to pretty much any savoury dish that has a sauce. I’ve found that it adds a “richness” I would normally only get by adding in homemade stock/broth. I’ve also been making jelly lollies by hydrating 100g of powdered gelatine in blackcurrent cordial and then heating in/over a pot of simmering water before setting.

I’ve been eating roughly 300g of gelatine per week for the last 4 weeks and noticed a slight improvement in my creaky knees almost straight away but it was only a slight improvement at first and may be completely unrelated to the gelatine. I was experiencing twinging pain while squatting on the way down (my knees have limited my squat weight for a while) and had to change my squat technique because of this. My knees have been creaking and twinging while moving around the world too recently. I’ve eased off lifting the last couple of weeks and was putting off my squat session for the last 4 days. I did them today and absolutely smashed them with no pain at all. I’ve only been peating for about 6 weeks now and supplementing gelatine for about 4 of those weeks but this has been a really nice sign that things are going well. I’ve just received an order for 4lbs of collagen hydrosolate because I find the disolving and consuming of straight gelatine powder difficult and like it as a source of protein. I’ll still be adding gelatine powder while cooking but will probably stop adding it to my coffee.

I’ve been making bone broth for years but I often struggle to get a good set when cooled (probably because I cook it too long and denature the gelatine a bit). I will probaby make another batch shortly and dissolve additional gelatine powder to help it set (this really helps to preserve the stock in the fridge).

 

[Amazoniac]

Here is Great Lakes Beef Gelatin vs Beef Collagen Hydrolysate
comparison - mine, data from Great Lakes
http://greatlakesgelatin.com/business/GelatinSpecs_As_of_March2017.pdf
http://greatlakesgelatin.com/business/GelatinSpecs_Hydro_as_of_2014.pdf
View attachment 7972
It's weird they skipped Heavy metals total for hydrolysate, or is it to high to display? Because Heavy metals for Gelatin are pretty high.
Fluoride concentration is disturbing as well.
Protein for Collagen Hydrolysate:
View attachment 7973
Protein content for beef bone broth
from Bone Broth Micro nutrient Panels
View attachment 7974
How is that: 2 tbsp dry 12 g protein vs 8 ounces watery broth 8 g?
My broth looks like that (petty thick):
View attachment 7975
And a while ago i found a thread
Collagen Hydrolysate Vs. Gelatin

Hey @Travis is it really the case? Or that other Travis is spreading misinformation? :)
And do you think hydrolization process may introduce extra heavy metals and what not to the final product?

Jasmined,
I was using your post to make an origami bird out of my oblivion and release it.
The fluoride content of their collagen can be scary indeed. Up to 600mcg per serving would leave the thyroid begging for mercy. It's not a lab reading limitation because their gelatin contains much less. Thank you for pointing out.
The total heavy metal count can be including nutrients such as copper, iron, etc.

 

[noordinary]

Jasmined,
I was using your post to make an origami bird out of my oblivion and release it.
The fluoride content of their collagen can be scary indeed. Up to 600mcg per serving would leave the thyroid begging for mercy. It's not a lab reading limitation because their gelatin contains much less. Thank you for pointing out.
The total heavy metal count can be including nutrients such as copper, iron, etc.

Looks like processing introduces chemicals to many products even old school traditional ones. Probably new processing methods arise to cut expenses in production.

 

[Amazoniac]

Looks like processing introduces chemicals to many products even old school traditional ones. Probably new processing methods arise to cut expenses in production.

Guru, I just realized something: the wasser that you use to prepare your homemade broth cannot be fluoridated.
"The standard dose of this poison in your water is 1 part per million, 1 ppm; but according to law your water can contain up to 4 ppm, with no violation."
It would punch your thyroid harder than Great Lakes' collagen, giving you 1-4mg for each liter used.

 

[paymanz]

In my opinion broth is better if it be from soft connective tissue, it tastes better and needs shorter cooking time.

Beef feet(with skin on)are best in my opinion , i remove bones and much as possible, and after cooking it remove fats from broth.

Cooking it in pressure cooker for 2h is enough.

Its really rich gelatinous food , try it if you can find it where you live.

-------

Otherwise gelatin pwoder is good option too.