What if Jorge released a high-gamma version of TocoVit?

[Amazoniac]

- γ-Tocopherol, the major form of vitamin E in the US diet, deserves more attention
- The Potential Physiological Role of γ-Tocopherol in Human Health: A Qualitative Review

- Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki "gamma"

 

[yerrag]

Good thread.

I'm surprised this thread wasn't commented on.

There were many comments on Barry Tan's "best" vitamin - tocotrienol thread, yet there were no valid studies backing Tan's claim about tocotrienols.

Yet hardly an iota of interest on gamma-tocopherol, which has proven benefits and which Ray Peat endorses along with alpha-tocopherol.

Don't let the lack of interest discourage you @Amazoniac . Maybe people are still dealing with COVID and with Ukraine.

And having to do some long focused reading in these times, I admit, is hard to do.

 

[haidut]

- γ-Tocopherol, the major form of vitamin E in the US diet, deserves more attention
- The Potential Physiological Role of γ-Tocopherol in Human Health: A Qualitative Review

- Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki "gamma"

I don't think soybean oil, which is the most common source of high-gamma tocopherol mix, has much policosanol. So, if we extract it with CO2 from soybean oil, just as we do with the wheat germ oil for TocoVit, it would probably be just a high-gamma tocopherol mix that is quite common on the market and adds nothing unique. Also, since we released TocoVit a few years ago we have only had maybe 2-3 inquiries about a high-gamma version so I am not sure there would be much interest in such a product anyways.
@yerrag

 

[Amazoniac]

I don't think soybean oil, which is the most common source of high-gamma tocopherol mix, has much policosanol. So, if we extract it with CO2 from soybean oil, just as we do with the wheat germ oil for TocoVit, it would probably be just a high-gamma tocopherol mix that is quite common on the market and adds nothing unique. Also, since we released TocoVit a few years ago we have only had maybe 2-3 inquiries about a high-gamma version so I am not sure there would be much interest in such a product anyways.
@yerrag

I see what you did there.

Various of your products would offer nothing 'unique' when thought in terms of main ingredients (there's plenty of similar products on the market), but you've managed to differentiate them somehow, through quality of the raw materials, better processing, excipients used/avoided, and so on.

A while ago I had doubts about which mk-4 product is best. After a lot of experimentation, I realized that yours is superior. I can use higher doses of the others or alternate the route in attempt to compensate for an inefficiency, but it's not sufficient. Kuinone produces a clearer effect in spite of them all being mk-4.​

If you insist that the policosanols are what makes a product special, there are other gamma-tocopherol sources that might contain them in desirable quantities ($?), you'd have to investigate their yolk-like embryos, not the residue in the refined oil.

- Gamma-Tocopherol – An Underestimated Vitamin? (according to Table 2, corn and flaxseed are proportionally richer in gamma-tocopherol than soybead oil)
- Nuts and seeds as sources of alpha and gamma tocopherols
- Policosanols: Chemistry, Occurrence, and Health Effects​

You already have one "vitamin" E product, but the same applied to Poisonil, when you decided to diversify. In a community that refers to PUFA elimination as 'detoxification', two versions of an antidote is not too many. Fair enough if there's little request, like yerrag, I'm surprised at people's disinterest.

 

[haidut]

I see what you did there.

Various of your products would offer nothing 'unique' when thought in terms of main ingredients (there's plenty of similar products on the market), but you've managed to differentiate them somehow, through quality of the raw materials, better processing, excipients used/avoided, and so on.

A while ago I had doubts about which mk-4 product is best. After a lot of experimentation, I realized that yours is superior. I can use higher doses of the others or alternate the route in attempt to compensate for an inefficiency, but it's not sufficient. Kuinone produces a clearer effect in spite of them all being mk-4.​

If you insist that the policosanols are what makes a product special, there are other gamma-tocopherol sources that might contain them in desirable quantities ($?), you'd have to investigate their yolk-like embryos, not the residue in the refined oil.

- Gamma-Tocopherol – An Underestimated Vitamin? (according to Table 2, corn and flaxseed are proportionally richer in gamma-tocopherol than soybead oil)​

- Nuts and seeds as sources of alpha and gamma tocopherols​

- Policosanols: Chemistry, Occurrence, and Health Effects​

You already have one "vitamin" E product, but the same applied to Poisonil, when you decided to diversify. In a community that refers to PUFA elimination as 'detoxification', two versions of an antidote is not too many. Fair enough if there's little request, like yerrag, I'm surprised at people's disinterest.

Maybe we can do a poll on the forum? If say at least 30 people say they are interested in a high-gamma version, but not interested in the high-alpha one then it may be worth it.

 

[Lollipop2]

Maybe we can do a poll on the forum? If say at least 30 people say they are interested in a high-gamma version, but not interested in the high-alpha one then it may be worth it.

I vote for both - don’t either or unless financially it is too expensive to keep both versions. In that case, stick with current version. I love it.

 

[yerrag]

@haidut thanks for eliciting ideas from us on the makeup of your vitamin E product. I appreciate that you've already improved it from the initial version with input from no less than the namesake of this forum.

Since both alpha and gamma tocopherol are both beneficial, and even the beta and delta isomers have some benefit (though as yet unquantified and given much study) as part of mixed tocopherols, could you give us an idea of what mix of alpha and gamma isomers would be like, in a high gamma version of the product? In a practical (cost wise and production and sourcing wise sense as well as theoretically optimally beneficial sense)?

Then maybe we can thresh out the pros and cons of each version to see if there is much differentiation in the net benefit one can derive from changing the existing formula?

If it would help haidut from the onus of research and having to make a case for a high(er) gamma version, @Amazoniac what do you think of us making a short form writeup on the merit of the gamma isomer over the alpha isomer, and vice versa, with particular emphasis on what disease/condition warrants a higher delta version and the same for a higher gamma version. it may not even be a disease, but towards preventing a disease.

As Ray has said, it is hard to keep up with the changes in the makeup of vitamin E in the market. He had said that it has/had become so bad that he has/had stopped taking vitamin E supplements. A lot of it has to do though with sellers mixing PUFA oils with vitamin E in capsules. But I should add that various forms of vitamin E are in the market, many of which do squat. Such as the dl-alpha, succinate, tocotrienol versions. These make Vitamin E selection as supplements a confusing process.

Studies by the medical establishment intentionally make this process even more arduous. A lot of misdirection going on to keep the consumer from enjoying the benefits of honest to goodness vitamin E.

 

[Makrosky]

I cannot comment much because I am still learning how to use Vitamin E. Thanks @yerrag for your advice about this in previous threads. What I can say so far is this:

- Tocovit is, as always with idealabs products, very potent. However, it causes some aggressiveness mood kind of. Even with 2-3 drops. This has been reported by other users also.

- High gamma E from health natura, works good as well, the subjective effects are much less pronounced but I am sure it is good quality as well. Doesn't produce that aggressive mood. So I am favoring it instead of tocovit for now.

Need to experiment more. For sure if haidut releases a high gamma one at some point I would buy buy it. Another very good thing about idealabs is that the ordering, shipment and other things I don't want to say here is super convenient.

 

[Makrosky]

And thanks Amazoniac and yerrag for always bringing such high quality discussions on the forum!!

 

[yerrag]

And thanks Amazoniac and yerrag for always bringing such high quality discussions on the forum!!

Thanks for the compliments.

I cannot comment much because I am still learning how to use Vitamin E. Thanks @yerrag for your advice about this in previous threads. What I can say so far is this:

- Tocovit is, as always with idealabs products, very potent. However, it causes some aggressiveness mood kind of. Even with 2-3 drops. This has been reported by other users also.

- High gamma E from health natura, works good as well, the subjective effects are much less pronounced but I am sure it is good quality as well. Doesn't produce that aggressive mood. So I am favoring it instead of tocovit for now.

Need to experiment more. For sure if haidut releases a high gamma one at some point I would buy buy it. Another very good thing about idealabs is that the ordering, shipment and other things I don't want to say here is super convenient.

I wish I were as perceptive as you on these things.

Since reductive stress is the subject of a recent thread by haidut,

"Reductive" stress harms cells, mitochondria protect by increasing metabolism

in which too high GSH/GSSG could lead to increased reductive stress, I wonder if too much alpha-tocopherol intake could lead to increase recycling of GSSG to GSH


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN-i2Ik45Ow


and thus lead to an increase in reductive stress.

However, as to whether an increase in reductive stress leads to a change in mood, towards aggressiveness is another subject to ponder on.

My hypothesis is that since, based on the contents of the first thread I linked, reductive stress could lead to aerobic glycolysis, it would lead to a lowering in the quality of metabolism, meaning from fully oxidative towards glycolytic metabolism, and this would lead to slower usage of blood sugar, which would lead to sub-optimal blood sugar regulation, and in the case of resulting hypoglycemia (due to a strong insulin response to high blood sugar leading to hypoglycemia), and in the lack of glycogen to backfill for low blood sugar thru adrenalin, cortisol would be produced to convert protein to blood sugar. The production of stress hormones adrenalin and cortisol could be causing you to feel aggressive.

 

[yerrag]

I'm reposting this comparison of a few prominent brands of vitamin E as far as their isomer content goes:

 

[LeeLemonoil]

I‘m using a highish Gamma-mix
(But with a good portion of alpha)policosanol powder, a few nuts, olive oil, coconut oil and iodine for pufa-protection.

 

[Amazoniac]

@haidut thanks for eliciting ideas from us on the makeup of your vitamin E product. I appreciate that you've already improved it from the initial version with input from no less than the namesake of this forum.

Since both alpha and gamma tocopherol are both beneficial, and even the beta and delta isomers have some benefit (though as yet unquantified and given much study) as part of mixed tocopherols, could you give us an idea of what mix of alpha and gamma isomers would be like, in a high gamma version of the product? In a practical (cost wise and production and sourcing wise sense as well as theoretically optimally beneficial sense)?

Then maybe we can thresh out the pros and cons of each version to see if there is much differentiation in the net benefit one can derive from changing the existing formula?

If it would help haidut from the onus of research and having to make a case for a high(er) gamma version, @Amazoniac what do you think of us making a short form writeup on the merit of the gamma isomer over the alpha isomer, and vice versa, with particular emphasis on what disease/condition warrants a higher delta version and the same for a higher gamma version. it may not even be a disease, but towards preventing a disease.

As Ray has said, it is hard to keep up with the changes in the makeup of vitamin E in the market. He had said that it has/had become so bad that he has/had stopped taking vitamin E supplements. A lot of it has to do though with sellers mixing PUFA oils with vitamin E in capsules. But I should add that various forms of vitamin E are in the market, many of which do squat. Such as the dl-alpha, succinate, tocotrienol versions. These make Vitamin E selection as supplements a confusing process.

Studies by the medical establishment intentionally make this process even more arduous. A lot of misdirection going on to keep the consumer from enjoying the benefits of honest to goodness vitamin E.

Research on gamma-tocopherol is incentivized by the seed oil industry, there's an abundance of articles promoting it. However, I think that what's holding Jorge back is the low demand, which is why this poll thread was created.

If you want to dig up the topic, for context, it's worth looking into the fundamental level when these toxins are synthesized in plants. Alpha-tocopherol is derived from gamma-tocopherol, the difference between them is a methyl group that's transferred by gamma-tocopherol methyltransferase. The regulation of this limiting enzyme's expression and activity receives attention because they try to manipulate it to increase the conversion/diokineness. Unfortunately, not the same attention is given to the significance of the native tocopherol composition, at times leaving the impression of a mere enzymatic impairment when the part of a plant is rich in gamma-tocopherol. The publications below are on hold, there's relevant information in them, but (of course) ANY anesthesiology book should contain everything detailed on chapter 'Coagulation and antioxidation in desensitization' , all there)))

- Elevating the Vitamin E Content of Plants Through Metabolic Engineering
- Vitamin E Biosynthesis and Its Regulation in Plants
- Recent Advances in our Understanding of Tocopherol Biosynthesis in Plants: An Overview of Key Genes, Functions, and Breeding of Vitamin E Improved Crops
- Tocopherol content and isomers’ composition in selected plant species
- Deciphering the genetic basis for vitamin E accumulation in leaves and grains of different barley accessions
- Genetic variation of γ-tocopherol methyltransferase gene contributes to elevated α-tocopherol content in soybean seeds
- Characterization of an Arabidopsis mutant deficient in γ-tocopherol methyltransferase
- Specific Roles of α- and γ-Tocopherol in Abiotic Stress Responses of Transgenic Tobacco (@LLight)
- Role of Tocopherol (Vitamin E) in Plants: Abiotic Stress Tolerance and Beyond
- Tocochromanol functions in plants: antioxidation and beyond
- Functional diversity of tocochromanols in plants

Out of curiosity:
- Phytol from Degradation of Chlorophyll Feeds Biosynthesis of Tocopherols
- Accumulation of α-Tocopherol in Senescing Organs as Related to Chlorophyll Degradation

I'm reposting this comparison of a few prominent brands of vitamin E as far as their isomer content goes:

View attachment 34574

 

[Amazoniac]

- A combination of aspirin and gamma-tocopherol is better than that of aspirin and alpha-tocopherol in anti-inflammatory action and attenuating aspirin-caused adverse effects (@DaveFoster)

Spoiler

"Male Wistar rats (250–330g) (Charles River, CA, USA) were caged singly and routinely fed ad libitum with 2018 Teklad Global 18% Protein Rodent Maintenance Diet (Harlan Teklad, IN) with free access to the tap water. An air pouch was created by a subcutaneous injection of 12mL sterile air into the intrascapular area of the rat’s back. Thirty hours later, 2mL of 0.6% carrageenan or phosphate-buffered saline (PBS) (as non-inflamed controls) was injected into the air pouch. αT and γT was first dissolved in tocopherol-stripped corn oil (Dyets Inc., Bethlehem, PA, USA), and then aspirin was added. Prior to each feeding, the mixtures with aspirin were vigorously mixed. Animals were fed with aspirin (150mg/kg bw), aspirin plus γT (33 mg/kg) or αT (33 mg/kg) continuously for 3 days by gavage using 0.5mL tocopherol-stripped corn oil as the vehicle. Control animals received the same volume of tocopherol-stripped corn oil. Immediately after the third gavage, carrageenan was injected in the pouch to initiate inflammation. Six or eighteen hours later, rats were sacrificed and pouch fluid was collected by lavage with Hanks-buffered saline solution (HBSS) containing 0.004% heparin but no Ca2+/Mg2+. After a brief centrifugation, the supernatant was collected and frozen immediately for the measurement of PGE2, LTB4, and TNF-α etc. Total cells were counted by a hemocytometer."

"At eighteen hours after the initiation of inflammation, PGE2 levels at the inflammation site remained elevated, whereas LTB4 and TNFα in the pouch dropped to the basal level of non-inflamed controls (data not shown). Compared with corn-oil treated rats, animals fed the combination of aspirin and γT, but not aspirin alone or aspirin and αT, had 40% (P < 0.07) reduced PGE2 (Figure 2A) and 15% decreased (P < 0.05) exudate volume (Figure 2B). None of the treatment affected immune cell infiltration (Figure 2C). Inflammation-associated tissue damage was assayed by increased release of cytosol lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), a marker of cytotoxicity and tissue damage (23). The combination of aspirin and γT showed a tendency in decreasing (~30%, P = 0.07) LDH in the exudate fluid (Figure 2D)."

"Consistently with reduced food intake, three-day administration of aspirin caused lesions in the stomach as indicated by macroscopic examination which showed gastric ulcers. The combination of aspirin and γT non-significantly alleviated aspirin-induced lesions (Figure 4B). In contrast, the combination of aspirin and αT showed more severe lesions compared with aspirin alone (P < 0.05) or the combination of aspirin and γT (P < 0.01) (Figure 4B)."

"To explain the beneficial effect of γT on aspirin-induced food reduction and seemingly protection of stomach injury, we examined the drug effect on gastric PGE2, which is generated by COX-1-catalyzed reaction and is believed to provide mucosal cytoprotection (6, 7). Eighteen hours after the last dosing, rats fed aspirin and aspirin plus αT had more than 4-fold (P < 0.05) and 3-fold (P < 0.05) reduced PGE2, respectively, in the mucus of stomach (Figure 5A). In contrast, the combination of aspirin and γT partially attenuated aspirin-caused reduction of gastric PGE2. Because oxidative stress may play a role in aspirin-caused stomach injury (8, 10), we measured 8-isoprostane, a lipid peroxidation marker. Compared with corn-oil controls, treatment with aspirin or aspirin plus γT led to almost three-fold reduction of 8-isoprostane (P < 0.05) in the stomach mucus, whereas aspirin plus αT did not significantly affect 8-isoprostane (Figure 5B). We also measured gastric LTB4 which is also believed to contribute to gastric injury (27). The results indicated that LTB4 was not affected by aspirin or the combinations compared with corn-oil controls (data not shown)."

I don't know how much of each isomer is desirable, but based on votes so far, it seems that the majority of victims would use both products. It's better to opt for a variation that's very rich in gamma-tocopherol for the ease of modification of the profile when they're combined.

I thought that Raj in the options could help Bulgaria buy another mansion, yet it wasn't enough to deter the rebels. At least he's avoiding future rude customers.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Differential gene regulation and tumor inhibitory activities of alpha-, delta- and gamma-tocopherols in estrogen-mediated mammary carcinogenesis

Spoiler

"Female ACI rats were purchased from Harlan Laboratories (Indianapolis, IN) at 6-7 weeks of age. After two weeks of acclimatization, the rats were subcutaneously implanted with silastic tubing filled with 9 mg of 17β-estradiol (E2) (Sigma-Aldrich, St. Louis, MO) or sham implants, following a previously described method (29). Rats receiving sham implants were fed with control diet. E2 implanted rats were fed with control diet or diets containing 0.2% α-, δ-, γ-T or γ-TmT." "Natural γ-TmT [..] contained 56.1% γ-T, 22.3% δ-T, 11.5% α-T and 1.2% β-T." "Diets were administered from the day of E2 implantation. Rats were sacrificed at 30 weeks post treatment. Each treatment group included 27 animals."