Vitamin C

[Amazoniac]

Influence of Ascorbic Acid, Zinc, Iron, Sucrose and Fructose on Copper Status

"Adverse effects of high intakes of AA on Cu utilization are recognized in several species: rats (Van Campen and Gross, 1968; Johnson, 1986; Johnson and Murphy, 1988a), chicks (Carlton and Henderson, 1964, 1965; Hill and Starcher, 1965), rabbits, (Hunt and Carlton, 1965; Hunt et al., 1970), guinea pigs (Milne and Omaye, 1980; Smith and Bidlack, 1980; Omaye et al., 1986), monkeys (Milne et al., 1981), and humans (Finley and Cerklewski, 1983, Jacob et al., 1987). This antagonism between' AA and Cu may be beneficial when Cu intakes are excessive. High intakes of AA decreased the toxicity of excess dietary Cu in young pigs (Gipp et al., 1974).

The effects of high intakes of AA have usually been studied during Cu deficiency. Laboratory animals fed Cu-deficient diets supplemented with 1-5% AA have higher mortality rates, increased cardiac and/or vascular abnormalities, lower body weights, and lower hematocrit and hemoglobin levels than control animals. Liver Cu levels were not consistently decreased in animals fed Cu-deficient diets supplemented with AA for several weeks (Johnson, 1986; Johnson and Murphy, 1988a; Hill and Starcher, 1965; Hunt et al., 1970; Van Campen and Gross; 1968). However, in short-term studies with orally administered radiolabeled Cu, AA decreased the absorption of Cu from ligated intestinal segments, and decreased the retention of Cu in the liver and whole body of rats (Hill and Starcher, 1965; Van Campen and Gross, 1968). Thus, it is hypothesized that AA impairs Cu utilization through decreased Cu absorption or through increased turnover of Cu.

Although it is widely accepted that AA influences Cu utilization in laboratory animals, there is little information on the influence of AA on Cu status in humans. Ingestion of 1500 mg AA/day for 52 days by young adult men significantly decreased serum ceruloplasmin activity by 26% and tended to lower serum Cu; serum Cu levels were significantly increased 20 days after the AA supplements were discontinued (Finley and Cerklewski, 1983). A small but non-significant decrease in plasma ceruloplasmin protein was observed after administration of 1000 mg of AA for 60 days to institutionalized elderly (Schorah et al., 1981). An intake of 605 mg AA/day for 3 weeks significantly decreased ceruloplasmin activity, but did not decrease immunoreactive ceruloplasmin, serum Cu or the percent absorption of Cu in adult men (Jacob et al., 1987).
It has been suggested that AA has a specific reducing effect on the redox center, Cu(II), of ceruloplasmin; this would explain why the level of ceruloplasmin activity, but not ceruloplasmin protein, is most affected during exposure to high levels of AA (Jacob et al., 1987). It is also possible that the effects of AA on Cu status are dose related and adverse effects are not evident in humans until the intake of AA is in the range of 1500 mg/day (Finley and Cerklewski, 1983)."

Vitamin C overdose/deficiency symptoms, benefits, side effects
https://www.researchgate.net/public...r_a_recommended_dietary_allowance?ev=auth_pub

 

[bennyha]

Been working with Dr. G for 3 years now. He’s helped me so much more than all the other alternative practitioner all stars that everyone on the net know of. He thinks outside the box and does tons of research. We are addressing my high iron with tons of potassium, sodium, and magnesium ascorbates and my results have been utterly amazing. I too have sky high calcium and magnesium and am also a very slow oxidizer

Do you know Dr Garrett Smith? He has been doing HTMA for yrs now, he says on good days he gets 8-10 grams ascorbic acid a day. he recommends it for a lot of people. If he saw minerals going down because of it for sure he'd change it up. He's big on reducing iron too. But he also thinks Peat's high sugar diet is ridiculous.

Yes we get imported fruit of course, at the local grocery stores it's hard to find them ripe in the winter (besides bananas of course!). When I was pregnant and craving watermelon like mad I had to buy the pre cut because then I knew the quality, but even then it was hard up until around April-May. Whole foods might be a better source, but also way past my budget.

So I'd say people should supp to at least 2grams a day.

Yes copper has been difficult for me, but I probably meet my quota with liver. I was using zinc to ward off the flu going around in my family and it tastes really bad to me, which says something. Apparently zinc will have no flavor if you need it, I always had a strong bad taste from the challenge test. Selenium I actually get plenty of from wheat, which might be hard for Peatarians if they don't eat oysters or wheat. Molybdenum I tried recently and maybe caused some kind of detox reaction I didn't like it. Minerals are hard to balance through supplements. Do you have any proof ascorbic acid messes with minerals?

 

[yerrag]

High dose ascorbic acids in the form of magnesium, potassium, and sodium ascorbates have literally been my life saver. I’ve been sick 8 years and NOTHING worked (and trust me I have tried everything) like this has. I gradually got worked up to 90 grams a day spread out over 4x a day before reaching bowell tolerance. Now I’m at 25 g and finally getting my life back. The research is there. Don’t skip this simple vitamin. It’s been a life saver for me

Glad you're sharing this.

I'm with @Janelle525 on the use of vitamin C and not just on low dosage but on large doses when the situation requires it.

I'm now using l-ascorbic acid of about 7 grams daily, drinking it dissolved in water spread over a day. I don't take it after a meal because it increases iron absorption, something I learned from Ray Peat and this forum. Since my problem has to do with a hypertensive condition that hasn't abated for fifteen years despite many tries at it with different natural protocols, I considered the use of both vitamin C and magnesium chloride, from the articles @burtlancast has shared on chelating lead (which is a major cause of my hypertension) and started it at the beginning of last month. Since then, my blood pressure has come down significantly, even though I'm not totally out of the woods yet.

I could probably now go for a better source, after what @noordinary has shared. Still, I'm thankful that I got started on l-ascorbic acid and magnesium chloride, and that I wasn't letting my desire for a low-contaminated vitamin C keep me from getting started. Now that I've started on my protocol and finding it works, I can move on to better sources such as Quali-C, which I learned of from the Vitamin C Foundation.

Incidentally, I also joined the Vitamin C Foundation forum to get more acquainted with the workings of Vitamin C. That forum has a lot of good resources and I could see a lot of constructive arguments being made among its small group of members. Each forum has its own culture and its own dogmas, no matter how hard attempts are made to be objective. This forum, for example, has a negative bias towards Vitamin C, which imho speaks to low dosages as good, and large dosages as evil somehow, in effect parroting the mainstream view on Vitamin C. The Vitamin C forum, on the other hand, speaks of sugar as being food for cancer, parroting the line of mainstream medicine.

I'm just amused myself, as I'm seeing myself becoming a hybrid of these two forums, and using sugar and vitamin C to my benefit. I can either get a double whammy or be twice-blessed.

Btw, these forums also have opposite views on omega-3 as well. Both mainstream and most of alternative medicine are pro-omega-3.

 

[bennyha]

I have iron overload and am taking it with meals and all my iron levels are lowering. Dr. G sent me many studies that contraindicated that. I and his many clients are proving this to not be true. I wouldnt worry about avoiding it with meals imo.


member: 3988"]Glad you're sharing this.

I'm with @Janelle525 on the use of vitamin C and not just on low dosage but on large doses when the situation requires it.

I'm now using l-ascorbic acid of about 7 grams daily, drinking it dissolved in water spread over a day. I don't take it after a meal because it increases iron absorption, something I learned from Ray Peat and this forum. Since my problem has to do with a hypertensive condition that hasn't abated for fifteen years despite many tries at it with different natural protocols, I considered the use of both vitamin C and magnesium chloride, from the articles @burtlancast has shared on chelating lead (which is a major cause of my hypertension) and started it at the beginning of last month. Since then, my blood pressure has come down significantly, even though I'm not totally out of the woods yet.

I could probably now go for a better source, after what @noordinary has shared. Still, I'm thankful that I got started on l-ascorbic acid and magnesium chloride, and that I wasn't letting my desire for a low-contaminated vitamin C keep me from getting started. Now that I've started on my protocol and finding it works, I can move on to better sources such as Quali-C, which I learned of from the Vitamin C Foundation.

Incidentally, I also joined the Vitamin C Foundation forum to get more acquainted with the workings of Vitamin C. That forum has a lot of good resources and I could see a lot of constructive arguments being made among its small group of members. Each forum has its own culture and its own dogmas, no matter how hard attempts are made to be objective. This forum, for example, has a negative bias towards Vitamin C, which imho speaks to low dosages as good, and large dosages as evil somehow, in effect parroting the mainstream view on Vitamin C. The Vitamin C forum, on the other hand, speaks of sugar as being food for cancer, parroting the line of mainstream medicine medicine.

I'm just amused myself, as I'm seeing myself becoming a hybrid of these two forums, and using sugar and vitamin C to my benefit. I can either get a double whammy or be twice-blessed.[/QUOTE]

 

[InChristAlone]

Because I'm a nerd and read about everything i can put my hands on on the topic that sparks an interest in me (as my grandma used to say, while trying to paint my nails, while i was trying to change pages, reading another book, when i was a kiddo: thanks god you are cute, it's no good for a girl to be that smart!" LOL)
But seriously, we are fckd up, but (our future) kids deserve a better chance especially considering the rate at which this world is disintegrating.
I don't think we can afford to be as naive and as stupid as out parents were, in this day and time.
You said her story was inspiring and said you are stay at home mom, so i thought the part about her having 4th baby and baby being so precocious inspired you.
Dr. Peat mentioned M. Diamond's work, so I got her two books, (you know how it happens, you start reading one book, when see a reference to another, and end up reading 5 books at the same time lol) Joseph Chilton Pearce is amazing (i don't agree with all he writes, but he've done some very interesting work) as did F. Renee Van Dr Car, now almost forgotten.
I'm a big fan of The Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff, her little book is one of my favorite of all books of all times! (and that a lot of books and a lot of times)
If you'll have a spare hour, watch her interview
Idk she and I have so much similar personalities in some way, her work speaks to me. Too bad she died in 2011 I have so many questions.
View attachment 7585

Oh ok! Yeah I read The Continuum Concept when I had my first, we are very well bonded, still cosleep, he's almost 9. But then I had a 2nd and everything went down the tubes, I still did attachment parenting type stuff but my first did not want a brother at all and couldn't handle it and we all suffered. Anyway, thanks for the recommendations!

 

[InChristAlone]

High dose ascorbic acids in the form of magnesium, potassium, and sodium ascorbates have literally been my life saver. I’ve been sick 8 years and NOTHING worked (and trust me I have tried everything) like this has. I gradually got worked up to 90 grams a day spread out over 4x a day before reaching bowell tolerance. Now I’m at 25 g and finally getting my life back. The research is there. Don’t skip this simple vitamin. It’s been a life saver for me

Thanks for sharing this! So it's not just placebo effect! It does more than just behave as an antioxidant. Mainstream says there is no benefit to going above what you absolutely need. I call BS. It is one of the safest vitamins to go above basic requirements. People here are using upwards of 2 grams of niacinamide, but then gawk at 4 grams ascorbic acid spread throughout the day. I do like using the least to effect positive change, but I've felt safe going high with vitamin C unlike anything else I've tried. So glad it is working for you.

 

[InChristAlone]

I'm talking about the trace minerals. They all interact with iron, and if iron is affected, their levels will vary. In the case of copper I believe it's directly though.

The difference between lowering trace minerals through caffeine and sugar is that you're actually consuming them, rather than just excreting.

Regarding contamination, I think noordinary's point is good. I was concerned about it regarding magnesium. You have to consider the amount of stuff that you're ingesting, not just how the analysis look. If you ingest a substance on the mcg range, it's different than ingesting grams of it.

Did you mean mercury? We don't know the exact number for mercury. And yeah I would quit using it right now if I knew it had 1.99ppm mercury. But I really doubt it does based on the success stories.

 

[InChristAlone]

Glad you're sharing this.

I'm with @Janelle525 on the use of vitamin C and not just on low dosage but on large doses when the situation requires it.

I'm now using l-ascorbic acid of about 7 grams daily, drinking it dissolved in water spread over a day. I don't take it after a meal because it increases iron absorption, something I learned from Ray Peat and this forum. Since my problem has to do with a hypertensive condition that hasn't abated for fifteen years despite many tries at it with different natural protocols, I considered the use of both vitamin C and magnesium chloride, from the articles @burtlancast has shared on chelating lead (which is a major cause of my hypertension) and started it at the beginning of last month. Since then, my blood pressure has come down significantly, even though I'm not totally out of the woods yet.

I could probably now go for a better source, after what @noordinary has shared. Still, I'm thankful that I got started on l-ascorbic acid and magnesium chloride, and that I wasn't letting my desire for a low-contaminated vitamin C keep me from getting started. Now that I've started on my protocol and finding it works, I can move on to better sources such as Quali-C, which I learned of from the Vitamin C Foundation.

Incidentally, I also joined the Vitamin C Foundation forum to get more acquainted with the workings of Vitamin C. That forum has a lot of good resources and I could see a lot of constructive arguments being made among its small group of members. Each forum has its own culture and its own dogmas, no matter how hard attempts are made to be objective. This forum, for example, has a negative bias towards Vitamin C, which imho speaks to low dosages as good, and large dosages as evil somehow, in effect parroting the mainstream view on Vitamin C. The Vitamin C forum, on the other hand, speaks of sugar as being food for cancer, parroting the line of mainstream medicine.

I'm just amused myself, as I'm seeing myself becoming a hybrid of these two forums, and using sugar and vitamin C to my benefit. I can either get a double whammy or be twice-blessed.

Btw, these forums also have opposite views on omega-3 as well. Both mainstream and most of alternative medicine are pro-omega-3.

Vitamin C is great for high blood pressure! And definitely magnesium. Thanks for sharing. Yeah every forum has their own dogmas. The vitamin C group on facebook says it coouldn't possibly do any harm and that all people should take it, but there are probably cases where its contraindicated.

 

[InChristAlone]

Influence of Ascorbic Acid, Zinc, Iron, Sucrose and Fructose on Copper Status

"Adverse effects of high intakes of AA on Cu utilization are recognized in several species: rats (Van Campen and Gross, 1968; Johnson, 1986; Johnson and Murphy, 1988a), chicks (Carlton and Henderson, 1964, 1965; Hill and Starcher, 1965), rabbits, (Hunt and Carlton, 1965; Hunt et al., 1970), guinea pigs (Milne and Omaye, 1980; Smith and Bidlack, 1980; Omaye et al., 1986), monkeys (Milne et al., 1981), and humans (Finley and Cerklewski, 1983, Jacob et al., 1987). This antagonism between' AA and Cu may be beneficial when Cu intakes are excessive. High intakes of AA decreased the toxicity of excess dietary Cu in young pigs (Gipp et al., 1974).

The effects of high intakes of AA have usually been studied during Cu deficiency. Laboratory animals fed Cu-deficient diets supplemented with 1-5% AA have higher mortality rates, increased cardiac and/or vascular abnormalities, lower body weights, and lower hematocrit and hemoglobin levels than control animals. Liver Cu levels were not consistently decreased in animals fed Cu-deficient diets supplemented with AA for several weeks (Johnson, 1986; Johnson and Murphy, 1988a; Hill and Starcher, 1965; Hunt et al., 1970; Van Campen and Gross; 1968). However, in short-term studies with orally administered radiolabeled Cu, AA decreased the absorption of Cu from ligated intestinal segments, and decreased the retention of Cu in the liver and whole body of rats (Hill and Starcher, 1965; Van Campen and Gross, 1968). Thus, it is hypothesized that AA impairs Cu utilization through decreased Cu absorption or through increased turnover of Cu.

Although it is widely accepted that AA influences Cu utilization in laboratory animals, there is little information on the influence of AA on Cu status in humans. Ingestion of 1500 mg AA/day for 52 days by young adult men significantly decreased serum ceruloplasmin activity by 26% and tended to lower serum Cu; serum Cu levels were significantly increased 20 days after the AA supplements were discontinued (Finley and Cerklewski, 1983). A small but non-significant decrease in plasma ceruloplasmin protein was observed after administration of 1000 mg of AA for 60 days to institutionalized elderly (Schorah et al., 1981). An intake of 605 mg AA/day for 3 weeks significantly decreased ceruloplasmin activity, but did not decrease immunoreactive ceruloplasmin, serum Cu or the percent absorption of Cu in adult men (Jacob et al., 1987).
It has been suggested that AA has a specific reducing effect on the redox center, Cu(II), of ceruloplasmin; this would explain why the level of ceruloplasmin activity, but not ceruloplasmin protein, is most affected during exposure to high levels of AA (Jacob et al., 1987). It is also possible that the effects of AA on Cu status are dose related and adverse effects are not evident in humans until the intake of AA is in the range of 1500 mg/day (Finley and Cerklewski, 1983)."

Vitamin C overdose/deficiency symptoms, benefits, side effects
https://www.researchgate.net/public...r_a_recommended_dietary_allowance?ev=auth_pub

I am going through the Accu cell article. I'm already having to shake my head. That website is so focused on how nutrients interact together that you may be scared of ever using any supplements even if the case warrants it!

Here are a few references to refute the claim that Vit C is contraindicated for hemochromatosis:
"Even high vitamin C intakes do not cause iron imbalance in healthy persons and probably in persons who are heterozygous for hemochromatosis." High-dose vitamin C: a risk for persons with high iron stores? - PubMed - NCBI

You might also like this article which includes a case study and ways of approaching iron overload and reasons why ascorbate is needed the more iron you have. www.health-science-spirit.com/haemochromatosis1.html

I could talk more about copper and C but I don't have the time today.

That article actually confirmed for me that I desperately needed more C than what meat and OJ and summer fruit was providing me. (High calcium intake, chocolate binges, I also get plenty plenty of manganese, oh and the biggest one: chronic stress)

 

[Amazoniac]

I am going through the Accu cell article. I'm already having to shake my head. That website is so focused on how nutrients interact together that you may be scared of ever using any supplements even if the case warrants it!

Here are a few references to refute the claim that Vit C is contraindicated for hemochromatosis:
"Even high vitamin C intakes do not cause iron imbalance in healthy persons and probably in persons who are heterozygous for hemochromatosis." High-dose vitamin C: a risk for persons with high iron stores? - PubMed - NCBI

You might also like this article which includes a case study and ways of approaching iron overload and reasons why ascorbate is needed the more iron you have. www.health-science-spirit.com/haemochromatosis1.html

I could talk more about copper and C but I don't have the time today.

That article actually confirmed for me that I desperately needed more C than what meat and OJ and summer fruit was providing me. (High calcium intake, chocolate binges, I also get plenty plenty of manganese, oh and the biggest one: chronic stress)View attachment 7588

I don't agree with everything there, but regarding iron accumulation, it's indeed expected to worsen if the supplement is taken with most meals. It's not good to take nutrients away from meals anyways.
These guys give supplements and test people to know how they affect them. I think their opinion is valuable even if you don't find studies proving a given interaction yet. You used your experience many times as refence but these guys have a lot of experiences to form these generalizations.

That article actually confirmed for me that I desperately needed more C than what meat and OJ and summer fruit was providing me. (High calcium intake

Well, that's how this topic came up in the first place: vit C insufficiency to counteract excess calcium from vit D supplementation.

In the case of copper, one thing if you argued that I wouldn't know what to say is the rising of copper in tissues tending to coincide with that of iron as protection. So the lowering of copper might be a decreased need for it. Yet I keep reading from "mineral analysts" about problems with trace minerals after prolonged supplementation of vit C in high doses, which just reinforce the other arguments in favor of lower doses from foods for the majority of people.

 

[InChristAlone]

I don't agree with everything there, but regarding iron accumulation, it's indeed expected to worsen if the supplement is taken with most meals. It's not good to take nutrients away from meals anyways.
These guys give supplements and test people to know how they affect them. I think their opinion is valuable even if you don't find studies proving a given interaction yet. You used your experience many times as refence but these guys have a lot of experiences to form these generalizations.


Well, that's how this topic came up in the first place: vit C insufficiency to counteract excess calcium from vit D supplementation.

In the case of copper, one thing if you argued that I wouldn't know what to say is the rising of copper in tissues tending to coincide with that of iron as protection. So the lowering of copper might be a decreased need for it. Yet I keep reading from "mineral analysts" about problems with trace minerals after prolonged supplementation of vit C in high doses, which just reinforce the other arguments in favor of lower doses from foods for the majority of people.

I have diligently tried to answer everything you post about, but you are disregarding most things I say. And I think it is due to that article you posted. So if you refuse to believe anything else then that is not my problem. Generalizations don't work. Context. I realize not to say everyone should high dose, my bad for ever suggesting, but I won't stop recommending people look into it for themselves and experiment with their own context regardless of what any study or website says. "Perceive, think, act"

(I just gave a case study of near fatal iron overload NOT getting worse with ascorbate)

 

[Amazoniac]

I have diligently tried to answer everything you post about, but you are disregarding most things I say. And I think it is due to that article you posted. So if you refuse to believe anything else then that is not my problem. Generalizations don't work. Context. I realize not to say everyone should high dose, my bad for ever suggesting, but I won't stop recommending people look into it for themselves and experiment with their own context regardless of what any study or website says. "Perceive, think, act"

(I just gave a case study of near fatal iron overload NOT getting worse with ascorbate)

I never disregarded anything you said. Those generalizations indicate a trend, whenever there's a trend, there's something to it that you can't owalook.

And regarding context, I just gave you the context in which it can make iron overload worse but you ignored. If you take it away from meals, it will work, but it doesn't mean that there aren't better/safer ways of doing it. I gave you Max Gerson's example of protocolling only 400mg for most patients and recovering them; and iron and toxic metal accumulation was likely present, by the way. But you ignored as well.

 

[InChristAlone]

I never disregarded anything you said. Those generalizations indicate a trend, whenever there's a trend, there's something to it that you can't owalook.

And regarding context, I just gave you the context in which it can make iron overload worse but you ignored. If you take it away from meals, it will work, but it doesn't mean that there aren't better/safer ways of doing it. I gave you Max Gerson's example of protocolling only 400mg for most patients and recovering them; and iron and toxic metal accumulation was likely present, by the way. But you ignored as well.

Why can't you take it away from a meal? Any proof vitamins won't work unless with a meal? Plus you don't have to have a meal perse, it could be a banana or juice. That is safe, no risk of iron overload.

The Gerson Therapy is not without it's flaws. Coffee enemas are a great tool and can assist in detoxification, some people have gotten well on that alone. Not to mention a largely plant based diet would show a huge reduction in dietary iron, plus the amount of vitamin C naturally on that diet would be more than most diets. I'm glad there are healing modalities that try to only use natural sources, but that way can also risk lives that would have been saved on non-natural therapies. Something I used to be pretty dogmatic about- trying to do things naturally. I most likely ignored it due to my coming full circle.... don't need to do things naturally especially if it's causing more stress.

I have a family to take care of. Ascorbic acid offered me hope that I could get better without spending gobs and gobs of money and all my time preparing and buying and food that would leave me even more exhausted. I don't necessarily believe in magic pills though. There is no magic about vitamin C. Or niacinamide, or magnesium., etc.

Anyway, this thread is now causing me more stress than it is worth. I put my time in to show it could help people.

 

[Amazoniac]

Why can't you take it away from a meal? Any proof vitamins won't work unless with a meal? Plus you don't have to have a meal perse, it could be a banana or juice. That is safe, no risk of iron overload.

The Gerson Therapy is not without it's flaws. Coffee enemas are a great tool and can assist in detoxification, some people have gotten well on that alone. Not to mention a largely plant based diet would show a huge reduction in dietary iron, plus the amount of vitamin C naturally on that diet would be more than most diets. I'm glad there are healing modalities that try to only use natural sources, but that way can also risk lives that would have been saved on non-natural therapies. Something I used to be pretty dogmatic about- trying to do things naturally. I most likely ignored it due to my coming full circle.... don't need to do things naturally especially if it's causing more stress.

I have a family to take care of. Ascorbic acid offered me hope that I could get better without spending gobs and gobs of money and all my time preparing and buying and food that would leave me even more exhausted. I don't necessarily believe in magic pills though. There is no magic about vitamin C. Or niacinamide, or magnesium., etc.

Anyway, this thread is now causing me more stress than it is worth. I put my time in to show it could help people.

Ok, no stress, I'll leave you with these words:

The hefty dose can still be stressful. And you can note that there were many buts so far and like the deadlifter mentioned, many possibilities for things going wrong. You already stated that the reason why you went for supplements is because you don't have those foods available as you wished. So this isn't a discussion about food versus supplements anymore, it's about higher or lower doses.
I don't know if you remember the forum member Edward, but he once commented (I believe) on Peata's zinc thread that whenever people take massive amounts of supplement they're usually masking something else or managing an unknown condition. This seems to be the case with prolonged use of vit C in excessive amounts.
The value in mentioning Max Gerson in terms of vit C is because his approach demonstrates that once you set the path on the right direction, not a lot is needed even in critical conditions.

Pauling Recommendation

Vitamin C supplements in high doses can help people in certain situations, but I believe the safest approach should be seeked with effort first. Does that sound good to you?

__
East West: Energy And Metabolism

Related and summarizes quite well:
"Vitamin E and vitamin C and uric acid, which is produced in our body is a major antioxidant. But the marketing of the idea of antioxidants has created a big confusion in that area. The antioxidants in our body have to fit together with uric acid which is naturally there and the enzymes which naturally breakdown free radicals, and if you put things in that don't fit and apparent antioxidant in a test tube can become a pro-oxidant in the body. Things have to fit together so that vitamin E and vitamin E lock together and vitamin E and vitamin C lock together, uric acid and vitamin C lock together and the glucose and other sugars have to be streaming through the systems of enzymes turning into carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide has to be flowing out of the cell properly. The whole antioxidant system is really one piece, and if you try to stuff in any super antioxidants like they are selling as health products you're likely to create more oxidation than you had without it. A recent publication saw that cataracts are twice as common in men over the age of 65 who took big supplements of vitamin E and vitamin C almost doubled their rate of cataracts."

Unrelated (IV):
"Hans Selye did experiments with poisoning animals with mercury and showed that a given dose would cause death of the kidneys and such, but then he gave them the same amount of mercury plus vitamin C and they had no toxic effects at all. The mercury in its reduced form isn't toxic, it’s just a metal but it's like iron. It depends on the exact state of reduction that makes it stick to things. And caffeine is associated with getting the heavy metals out of your tissues probably as a sort of key lighter but vitamin C from regular foods is an important defense against all of the heavy metals. But if you take these reducing agents in an unphysiological way, they can activate iron like I've mentioned in the liver, alcohol causes the reduction of iron by activating glutathione. Glutathione is the agent of making iron toxic. And so if you put glutathione or another reducing agent into the blood in an unphysiological way, it can increase the free radical damage."

 

[ddjd]

Zinc acting on 5ht1a

As a Serotonin antagonist?

 

[InChristAlone]

Ok, no stress, I'll leave you with these words:

The hefty dose can still be stressful. And you can note that there were many buts so far and like the deadlifter mentioned, many possibilities for things going wrong. You already stated that the reason why you went for supplements is because you don't have those foods available as you wished. So this isn't a discussion about food versus supplements anymore, it's about higher or lower doses.
I don't know if you remember the forum member Edward, but he once commented (I believe) on Peata's zinc thread that whenever people take massive amounts of supplement they're usually masking something else or managing an unknown condition. This seems to be the case with prolonged use of vit C in excessive amounts.
The value in mentioning Max Gerson in terms of vit C is because his approach demonstrates that once you set the path on the right direction, not a lot is needed even in critical conditions.

Pauling Recommendation

Vitamin C supplements in high doses can help people in certain situations, but I believe the safest approach should be seeked with effort first. Does that sound good to you?

__
East West: Energy And Metabolism

Related and summarizes quite well:
"Vitamin E and vitamin C and uric acid, which is produced in our body is a major antioxidant. But the marketing of the idea of antioxidants has created a big confusion in that area. The antioxidants in our body have to fit together with uric acid which is naturally there and the enzymes which naturally breakdown free radicals, and if you put things in that don't fit and apparent antioxidant in a test tube can become a pro-oxidant in the body. Things have to fit together so that vitamin E and vitamin E lock together and vitamin E and vitamin C lock together, uric acid and vitamin C lock together and the glucose and other sugars have to be streaming through the systems of enzymes turning into carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide has to be flowing out of the cell properly. The whole antioxidant system is really one piece, and if you try to stuff in any super antioxidants like they are selling as health products you're likely to create more oxidation than you had without it. A recent publication saw that cataracts are twice as common in men over the age of 65 who took big supplements of vitamin E and vitamin C almost doubled their rate of cataracts."

Unrelated (IV):
"Hans Selye did experiments with poisoning animals with mercury and showed that a given dose would cause death of the kidneys and such, but then he gave them the same amount of mercury plus vitamin C and they had no toxic effects at all. The mercury in its reduced form isn't toxic, it’s just a metal but it's like iron. It depends on the exact state of reduction that makes it stick to things. And caffeine is associated with getting the heavy metals out of your tissues probably as a sort of key lighter but vitamin C from regular foods is an important defense against all of the heavy metals. But if you take these reducing agents in an unphysiological way, they can activate iron like I've mentioned in the liver, alcohol causes the reduction of iron by activating glutathione. Glutathione is the agent of making iron toxic. And so if you put glutathione or another reducing agent into the blood in an unphysiological way, it can increase the free radical damage."

I agree most need high doses because of a condition. And then some are gung ho to stay on high doses til death, which would you blame them? It's not like it would kill someone, there are plenty of people on 12-50 grams for life, maybe they don't need so much to survive, but at least they aren't killing themselves slowly with alcohol, or drugs, or other therapies that they think help them. We got people on all kinds of non natural therapies in this group, I was offering a more safe alternative.

Are you saying Gerson therapy could be the cure for all disease? I would highly disagree. Some have gotten sick because of plant based diets. There are many many ways of healing. Vitamin C isn't a cureall, it hasn't been for me. I still have a skin problem I likely developed because of a mold situation. Plus my imbalanced system. But C gave me a quality of life I didn't have. I looked back at my logs and I had gone a long time on less than 200 mg C. Well not counting the DHAA of course. Did you read the Paul Jaminet's scurvy story? He needed mega doses to recover. He uses whole foods!!!! Yet he got scurvy!!!! I mean I can't believe no one has commented about that. That's why this thread is becoming stressful. We can get caught up in coulds and shoulds, but if you are showing any signs of subclinical scurvy please don't be afraid of ascorbic acid.

That quote about C protecting from Mercury poisoning is incredible and deserves more credit. I think reducing agents are not as scary as made out to be, I first started losing my health after a Mercury filling fell out then I had the rest drilled out. Had I known the power of C likely wouldn't have gone through such suffering. That is all.

 

[yerrag]

I agree most need high doses because of a condition. Which we know already. And then some are gung ho to stay that way til death, which would you blame them? We got people on all kinds of non natural therapies in this group, I was offering a more safe alternative.

Knowing what I know now, it would have helped my mom a lot survive the crisis that she didn't make through. I would turn to Vitamin C for the needed relief from stress, and you guys here know what stress is, in the most destructive sense of it, even use it as a crutch, while I diagnose the condition. Sometimes Vitamin C would be the solution, and if it isn't, it would serve as a very useful crutch. Many times, between life and death, there is a fine line we walk. Vitamin C helps us through that fine line.

Vitamin C is just too good to be true that I get the feeling it insults our senses. I would hear myself saying that it's too good to be true that it isn't. Then I do a google search and I confirm this bias, with the searches giving confirmation to this fear with tales of overdose, kidney stones, and then if that

isn't enough I would read of vitamin C not being needed in such amounts because nature doesn't provide us that much in practical quantities, and therefore I should stick by what nature gives and not ask for more. If you find the time to read Irwin Stone's book "The Healing Factor," then you would understand that other animals produce vitamin C in large quantities, but that we, along with primates and the guinea, don't have this ability, and therefore, we would need to take Vitamin C. But it's not only that. Animals that can, especially the goat, can produce so much Vitamin C to overcome a crisis, that it gets them thru the crisis. This might explain why the goat is so hardy. But Vitamin C has to be used at the right time and in the right quantity, in order to stave off the disease and keep the disease from destroying tissues to the point of no return. I've seen this with my kittens. Just recently, someone gave me a Himalayan kitten and I failed to act quickly enough by giving Vitamin C and other adjuncts. It died two days later after much wasted effort from being too little too late. It was feline distemper. I was on the watch for my other kitten, and as soon as I saw her lose appetite, I immediately began a protocol for her that involved vitamin C (with copper acetate as antibiotic and an expired homeopathic medicine). She came through after two days of steady intakes of the protocol.

I'm now convinced that not incorporating Vitamin C in your own personal toolkit is a lost opportunity for you. If you're willing to take thyroid, progesterone, cyproheptadine, and not be willing to consider Vitamin C, I personally feel you have a selection bias as a result of having Ray Peat as your guru. Ray Peat doesn't like that attitude himself. He says himself you shouldn't simply believe him.

Have you read any of the vitamin C books by Pauling, Stone, Levy, Cathcart, Humphries, et al, or their Youtube videos? It is well worth the time and gives you an added perspective.

That quote about C protecting from Mercury poisoning is incredible and deserves more credit. I think reducing agents are not as scary as made out to be, I first started losing my health after a Mercury filling fell out then I had the rest drilled out. Had I known the power of C likely wouldn't have gone through such suffering

I recently had a large cavity that would have given me so much pain. My biological dentist said other people would be in great pain, and attributed that to my state of health. I disagree. I just happened to be taking a large amount of vitamin C, at 7 grams a day.

 

[InChristAlone]

Knowing what I know now, it would have helped my mom a lot survive the crisis that she didn't make through. I would turn to Vitamin C for the needed relief from stress, and you guys here know what stress is, in the most destructive sense of it, even use it as a crutch, while I diagnose the condition. Sometimes Vitamin C would be the solution, and if it isn't, it would serve as a very useful crutch. Many times, between life and death, there is a fine line we walk. Vitamin C helps us through that fine line.

Vitamin C is just too good to be true that I get the feeling it insults our senses. I would hear myself saying that it's too good to be true that it isn't. Then I do a google search and I confirm this bias, with the searches giving confirmation to this fear with tales of overdose, kidney stones, and then if that

isn't enough I would read of vitamin C not being needed in such amounts because nature doesn't provide us that much in practical quantities, and therefore I should stick by what nature gives and not ask for more. If you find the time to read Irwin Stone's book "The Healing Factor," then you would understand that other animals produce vitamin C in large quantities, but that we, along with primates and the guinea, don't have this ability, and therefore, we would need to take Vitamin C. But it's not only that. Animals that can, especially the goat, can produce so much Vitamin C to overcome a crisis, that it gets them thru the crisis. This might explain why the goat is so hardy. But Vitamin C has to be used at the right time and in the right quantity, in order to stave off the disease and keep the disease from destroying tissues to the point of no return. I've seen this with my kittens. Just recently, someone gave me a Himalayan kitten and I failed to act quickly enough by giving Vitamin C and other adjuncts. It died two days later after much wasted effort from being too little too late. It was feline distemper. I was on the watch for my other kitten, and as soon as I saw her lose appetite, I immediately began a protocol for her that involved vitamin C (with copper acetate as antibiotic and an expired homeopathic medicine). She came through after two days of steady intakes of the protocol.

I'm now convinced that not incorporating Vitamin C in your own personal toolkit is a lost opportunity for you. If you're willing to take thyroid, progesterone, cyproheptadine, and not be willing to consider Vitamin C, I personally feel you have a selection bias as a result of having Ray Peat as your guru. Ray Peat doesn't like that attitude himself. He says himself you shouldn't simply believe him.

Have you read any of the vitamin C books by Pauling, Stone, Levy, Cathcart, Humphries, et al, or their Youtube videos? It is well worth the time and gives you an added perspective.

I recently had a large cavity that would have given me so much pain. My biological dentist said other people would be in great pain, and attributed that to my state of health. I disagree. I just happened to be taking a large amount of vitamin C, at 7 grams a day.

Yes I thought it was too good to be true as well. But I didn't have much to lose I was already housebound and C cannot be really overdosed on like a drug or hormone. I mean it would take more than you could give yourself because it just flushes out when reached intolerance. Very safe. You'd likely die of dehydration before the C ever became toxic.

That is great you recognized distemper and were able to turn it around! If my dog ever has an issue I will be giving him C. I've heard of other animals surviving thanks to C.

Yes I've also heard of the pain of dental issues being much reduced thanks to high dose C.

 

[yerrag]

Yes I thought it was too good to be true as well. But I didn't have much to lose I was already housebound and C cannot be really overdosed on like a drug or hormone. I mean it would take more than you could give yourself because it just flushes out when reached intolerance. Very safe. You'd likely die of dehydration before the C ever became toxic.

When we frame this in terms of risk and reward, the risk-reward ratio is so low it sounds like Bernie Madoff made it up lol

 

[lollipop]

Because I'm a nerd and read about everything i can put my hands on on the topic that sparks an interest in me (as my grandma used to say, while trying to paint my nails, while i was trying to change pages, reading another book, when i was a kiddo: thanks god you are cute, it's no good for a girl to be that smart!" LOL)
But seriously, we are fckd up, but (our future) kids deserve a better chance especially considering the rate at which this world is disintegrating.
I don't think we can afford to be as naive and as stupid as out parents were, in this day and time.
You said her story was inspiring and said you are stay at home mom, so i thought the part about her having 4th baby and baby being so precocious inspired you.
Dr. Peat mentioned M. Diamond's work, so I got her two books, (you know how it happens, you start reading one book, when see a reference to another, and end up reading 5 books at the same time lol) Joseph Chilton Pearce is amazing (i don't agree with all he writes, but he've done some very interesting work) as did F. Renee Van Dr Car, now almost forgotten.
I'm a big fan of The Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff, her little book is one of my favorite of all books of all times! (and that a lot of books and a lot of times)
If you'll have a spare hour, watch her interview
Idk she and I have so much similar personalities in some way, her work speaks to me. Too bad she died in 2011 I have so many questions.
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Amazing references. Thank you.