Vitamin C

[cyclops]

15 mg picolinate, I honestly feel it’s improved my cognition too.

That's whats up. I'm going to try this too. I can't stomach these nasty canned oysters from polluted waters anymore.

 

[Frankdee20]

I feel it helps with social anxiety, it specifically makes me want to be a man and talk to people without anxiety

 

[DaveFoster]

All I know is I supplement with vitamins A,B,D,E & K. C always feels left out and wants to join the party. I'm stern though; I say no evil vitamin you are not welcome here!

 

[Amazoniac]

Why do you suppose the more you take the less it would effect someone?

I didn't say that. I said that after a certain point it should stop affecting trace minerals in a negative way.
It can still make the bowels move if you're at the imminence of intolerance.

Even though you completely ignored my comment (not unusual on this forum full of men)

Can you be a model and reply these then?

Why people that produce or sell fresh acerolas don't eat more of them to reach at least 3g? There's no excuse because they're practically devoid of other known nutrients in relation to vit C.

You reach very high intakes of vit C from those foods before having enough antinutrients from them. Same for Camu-Camu.

As far as I know Albert Szent-Györgyi used bell peppers some times to extract vit C. He ingested 1g, not 3g or more, of vit C a day and 8-9g only when sick. I believe this information was taken from his biography by Ralph Moss written with his conszent, not sure. There are reports of him taking 4-5g later on, but I suppose it was when he was getting sicker.

No comment on this as well, why he would stop at 1g most of the time?

Why do you think Max Gerson gave most patients only 400mg of vit C a day (in spread doses of 100mg!)? So why not 8g since it was supplemental anyway?

Do you think it's possible that there are vit C supplements on the market providing part of their product as dummy rounds and therefore needing higher dosages to reach the desired effect?

If you give supplemental vit C to a congested person, a little excess worsens the person's congestion. If supplemental vit C always comes without negatives, how would you explain this characteristic worsening of stasis? Things should move on the right direction right away, no?

And just to recapitulate, I'm not against higher doses of vit C for therapeutic reasons, but not everyone needs those. I'm talking about unnecessary supplementation. I'm guessing most people need around 500-1000mg. Assuming that everyone needs at least 3g a day based on monkeys is delirium for the simple fact that it's not obtainable through foods, so the first thought that comes to mind is: some adaptation must have occurred along the way that allowed ourselves to deal with the inability to make our own. It's only in sickness that we probably fall short of it.

How many supercentenarians consume at least 3g? You can't reach that age living suboptimally. Examples of people living long supplementing vit C don't prove that everyone needs more of it since there are plenty of examples of people that never touched a C supplement living way more.

If supplements are likely contaminated and most people can get enough through foods, why bother supplementing if you were to maintain health?
Frank mentioned his reasons: to reduce costs and probably convenience. But if fruits were cheap and available, what he would choose?
And he uses food-based in reasonable amounts.

Calcirol - Liquid Supplement With Vitamin D3
By the way, that's the exact article that I left as comment in Nathan's article.

 

[Mito]

How many supercentenarians consume at least 3g? You can't reach that age living suboptimally.

I wonder if supercentenarians all have superior detoxification and and antioxidant defense systems (i.e. no polymorphisms that reduce detox enzyme activity). This would significantly reduce their needed for antioxidants like vitamin C.

 

[Amazoniac]

I wonder if supercentenarians all have superior detoxification and and antioxidant defense systems (i.e. no polymorphisms that reduce detox enzyme activity). This would significantly reduce their needed for antioxidants like vitamin C.

Their Mito.. chondria runs with more efficiency, right?
They're able to maintain it throughout life and shows you that if you're in good health, things will be in balance and not much is needed.

Something from our endocrinator:

Herb Doctors: Field Biology

ascorbic acid functions primarily, I think, in the cell as an oxidant maintaining cell structure and regulating synthetic processes, largely by its oxidative form, dehydroascorbic acid. And we don’t want an excess of the reduced form.

everything you can do to lower the stress hormones, aspirin, for example, is a good anti-inflammatory anti-stress agent, vitamin E is another protective, ascorbic acid in ordinary foods provides abundant amounts of ascorbic acid, so I don't recommend that as a supplement in general.

ANDREW MURRAY: This is why you’re so big on orange juice.

RAY PEAT: Yeah. And meat, eggs, milk, everything. Vegetables of all sorts contain ascorbic acid, but meat contains it in the dehydroascorbate form where people measuring the reduced form overlook it.

Herb Doctors: The Ten Most Toxic Things In Our Foodnew

In 1953, when I worked in the woods the word went around that you could cure poison oak with ascorbic acid. And I tried it myself. And in just two or three days, I completely recovered from a horrible case of poison oak and never caught it again. At that time, it was very expensive to make. And the pills on sale were only 50 mg. Several years later they developed new ways of manufacturing it. One of the processes Linus Pauling described as the lead room for making sulfuric acid which is then – the sulfuric acid is slightly contaminated with lead and other heavy metals. Then the cornstarch is processed, oxidized with this industrial sulfuric acid and ends up as ascorbic acid containing quite a bit of heavy metal. And with these new methods, I found that when people were taking 500 or 1,000 mg, they would often develop cold symptoms when they took it rather than when they didn't take it. And it apparently is irritating enough to the intestines that it causes endotoxin absorption and inflammation of the nose and throat and chest membrane. And citric acid is manufactured by very similar methods to ascorbic acid. And they really shouldn't be considered to have anything to do with the natural ascorbic acid or citric acid. The person who can get very sick on 2 mg of synthetic ascorbic acid can eat 4,000 mg of natural ascorbic acid with no reaction at all.

 

[InChristAlone]

I didn't say that. I said that after a certain point it should stop affecting trace minerals in a negative way.
It can still make the bowels move if you're at the imminence of intolerance.


Can you be a model and reply these then?


You reach very high intakes of vit C from those foods before having enough antinutrients from them. Same for Camu-Camu.


No comment on this as well, why he would stop at 1g most of the time?






If you give supplemental vit C to a congested person, a little excess worsens the person's congestion. If supplemental vit C always comes without negatives, how would you explain this characteristic worsening of stasis? Things should move on the right direction right away, no?

And just to recapitulate, I'm not against higher doses of vit C for therapeutic reasons, but not everyone needs those. I'm talking about unnecessary supplementation. I'm guessing most people need around 500-1000mg. Assuming that everyone needs at least 3g a day based on monkeys is delirium for the simple fact that it's not obtainable through foods, so the first thought that comes to mind is: some adaptation must have occurred along the way that allowed ourselves to deal with the inability to make our own. It's only in sickness that we probably fall short of it.

How many supercentenarians consume at least 3g? You can't reach that age living suboptimally. Examples of people living long supplementing vit C don't prove that everyone needs more of it since there are plenty of examples of people that never touched a C supplement living way more.

If supplements are likely contaminated and most people can get enough through foods, why bother supplementing if you were to maintain health?
Frank mentioned his reasons: to reduce costs and probably convenience. But if fruits were cheap and available, what he would choose?
And he uses food-based in reasonable amounts.

Calcirol - Liquid Supplement With Vitamin D3
By the way, that's the exact article that I left as comment in Nathan's article.

But why would it stop effecting trace minerals after a while? And like I said before sometimes removal of minerals is necessary. I got a HTMA a couple yrs ago and all my toxic heavy metals were very low. That most likely means very poor eliminator. Also my calcium and mag were high. Slow oxidizer. Maybe those supercentenarians have no issue with elimination of toxic metals. Maybe they were able to fast. Like that Gbolduev guy said vit C will absolutely help a slow oxidizer but fasting would be faster.

I'm fine with people not taking it if they are of the healthy type, but just because you are living to old age doesn't mean healthy. We don't know what makes someone's heart beat for so long. I often bring it up because it amazes me that my Grandpa is 95, he doesn't do anything special, he even had heart problems many yrs ago and went on drugs. Had he went on vitamin C maybe he wouldn't need those drugs and his quality of life would be better. Although it's pretty dang good for 95. My Grandma died a slow death of emphysema, it sucked seeing her so ill for so long. Had Drs used ascorbic acid therapy she'd have had a better quality of life.

How many people out there are truly healthy? Even in this group at such young ages with serious life altering issues.

Are you the healthy type? Maybe that is why you are gung ho about debating the C requirement.

I would love to have access to high quality fruit yr round. But I don't. Plus I want less fruit in winter.

That recycling of vit C why did that not happen with sailors? Plus Peat says meat has a form that's better the DHA form, I'm sure the sailors were eating meat. Such a terrible death prevented by some lemon juice!I really believe I had subclinical scurvy despite pasteurized OJ, milk, meat, some fruit. I had bleeding gums, fatigue, shortness of breath, coated tongue, emotional disturbance, etc.

Many vit C proponents are of the opinion that smaller doses don't do much and maybe it's true that the process it's manufactured damages it in such a way more is needed. But the negatives may be from that? I am not sure. I only get congested if I don't practice good habits in the winter.

So yes that comment

Also anyone here would be interested in this study http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.629.6095&rep=rep1&type=pdf where they conclude that in sepsis oral ascorbate decreases endotoxin translocation from the gut to the blood.

That refutes Peat's claim that oral ascorbate increases endotoxin absorption. I sometimes wonder if Peat is suffering from paranoia. I can relate. But I'm not that way anymore. I do things that resonate with me, no matter what any expert says.

 

[InChristAlone]

Here is the COA I received with my first batch of vitamin C. Katie, the lady who gets it from China will not sell anything she won't give her children. She did get sick from I believe it was bulk supplements? Can't remember, but now I don't trust any other C.

 

[Amazoniac]

Because in excess it can be a localized oxidant before absorption, and so it would be difficult to measure it based on blood markers. Removal of minerals is good as long as you can replenish them, but it's much easier to find good sources of vit C than it's to find for trace minerals, even more so if you need specific ones. Also the body has more control over water-soluble vitamins than minerals: if you take one of them to the point of affecting minerals it can't be good. It's also easy to supplement an excess of needs without realizing because it's very convenient.

Most places import decent fruits, but if you really don't have access to them, a food-based supplement might be safer.

How many people out there are truly healthy? Even in this group at such young ages with serious life altering issues.

And how many of them will be asking for a lab analysis of their supplement? If it can deplete minerals and introduce contaminants, it can poison the person despite not having any immediate effect.
Many people here struggle in getting enough zinc, copper, molybdenum, selenium, etc.

Are you the healthy type? Maybe that is why you are gung ho about debating the C requirement.

I have no idea how much I get, it's probably around 1.5g. But I don't use myself as reference for what other should be taking.

That recycling of vit C why did that not happen with sailors? Plus Peat says meat has a form that's better the DHA form, I'm sure the sailors were eating meat. Such a terrible death prevented by some lemon juice!I really believe I had subclinical scurvy despite pasteurized OJ, milk, meat, some fruit. I had bleeding gums, fatigue, shortness of breath, coated tongue, emotional disturbance, etc.

It's a way of conserving it, it doesn't mean that you don't need it anymore. It's just a way to decrease our needs.

I think Rayzord is hypersensitive and we should always be paying attention to hypersensitives have to say, EMF is a good example.

Also I'm sure the body will adapt to unusual intakes if you insist on doing it. If I'm not wrong, Abram Hoffer used to supplement 600mcg of selenium a day.

Some of the questions remain unanswered.
But anyway, what do you consider to be the minimum required for good health?

 

[Amazoniac]

@Travisord - In your opinion, what is a reasonable range of intake for healthy gurus?

 

[Travis]

@Travisord - In your opinion, what is a reasonable range of intake for healthy gurus?

What do you think should be used to determine this?

Linus Pauling had taken enzymatic rates and body weights of other species to estimate something on the order of ten grams or so, but a few million years ago our DNA has apparently decided that we could get enough from food and had completely abrogated its prior ability to synthesize it. You cannot get ten grams of ascorbate per day from food. So, I would set the tRDA round two or three grams—certainly not impossible from eating mostly fruit and raw plants. If people take powder, than they are usually taking an unnatural bolus dose; consuming a day's worth of ascorbate at once may not be as good as spacing it out.

'Levels of functional mRNA for procollagen, measured in a cell-free translation assay, are specifically increased in the presence of ascorbic acid. Thus, ascorbic acid appears to control the expression of three different procollagen genes, each of which is located on a separate chromosome. It is proposed that intracellularly accumulated procollagen in ascorbate deficiency may lead to a translational repression of procollagen synthesis. Ascorbic acid may relieve this block by promoting hydroxyproline formation and, consequently, secretion of procollagen from the cell.' ―Pinnel​

My recommendation is simply to eat raw foods. When people try this, they usually discover quickly that raw eggs are not particularly enjoyable and raw potatoes are somewhat plain. A person eating this way will naturally tend towards raw fruit and vegetables: basically what all the other non‐captive primates eat.

'After prolonged exposure to ascorbate, collagen synthesis in cultured human skin fibroblasts increased approximately 8-fold with no significant change in synthesis of noncollagen protein.' ―Murad​

If a person continues to destroy most dietary vitamin C with heat, then taking two grams should suffice for near‐maximum collagen synthesis; this would certainly help to prevent cardiovascular disease, broken bones, and cataracts. Gelatin squares mixed with diced pineapple, blueberries, and Tanqueray—and eaten with chopstix or course—would not only be good, but a veritable recipe for collagen synthesis.

Pinnell, Sheldon R. "Induction of collagen synthesis by ascorbic acid: a possible mechanism." Archives of dermatology (1987)
Murad, S. "Regulation of collagen synthesis by ascorbic acid." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (1981)​

 

[InChristAlone]

If we evolved from primates then that would explain the lack of ability to produce it as monkeys get all they need from the pounds of fruit they eat (gorillas develop heart disease in captivity, saw it at my local zoo, they said he was on a 'special diet' lol). I hope we could all eat like a monkey, but I just can't do that (and most people won't either) so supp it is!

Hypersensitives show dysregulation in their nervous system, which is why Peat knows so much of how the parasympathetic lowers blood glucose and things like that. He developed a way to deal with his dysregulation through drugs, hormones and diet. I am slowly getting back to autonomic regulation and hope to not need all this support.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I stopped supplementing C when I got into Peat's ideas. But I've started again. I'm using Quali-C made in the UK I think. I don't use heaps of it. I drink a lot of orange juice. I think the C is helpful. I wonder if Dr. Peat's ideas on C are a result of an old process for making it. OTOH he is just about always right in my experience so there is that...

 

[InChristAlone]

Because in excess it can be a localized oxidant before absorption, and so it would be difficult to measure it based on blood markers. Removal of minerals is good as long as you can replenish them, but it's much easier to find good sources of vit C than it's to find for trace minerals, even more so if you need specific ones. Also the body has more control over water-soluble vitamins than minerals: if you take one of them to the point of affecting minerals it can't be good. It's also easy to supplement an excess of needs without realizing because it's very convenient.

Most places import decent fruits, but if you really don't have access to them, a food-based supplement might be safer.


And how many of them will be asking for a lab analysis of their supplement? If it can deplete minerals and introduce contaminants, it can poison the person despite not having any immediate effect.
Many people here struggle in getting enough zinc, copper, molybdenum, selenium, etc.


I have no idea how much I get, it's probably around 1.5g. But I don't use myself as reference for what other should be taking.


It's a way of conserving it, it doesn't mean that you don't need it anymore. It's just a way to decrease our needs.

I think Rayzord is hypersensitive and we should always be paying attention to hypersensitives have to say, EMF is a good example.

Also I'm sure the body will adapt to unusual intakes if you insist on doing it. If I'm not wrong, Abram Hoffer used to supplement 600mcg of selenium a day.

Some of the questions remain unanswered.
But anyway, what do you consider to be the minimum required for good health?

Do you know Dr Garrett Smith? He has been doing HTMA for yrs now, he says on good days he gets 8-10 grams ascorbic acid a day. he recommends it for a lot of people. If he saw minerals going down because of it for sure he'd change it up. He's big on reducing iron too. But he also thinks Peat's high sugar diet is ridiculous.

Yes we get imported fruit of course, at the local grocery stores it's hard to find them ripe in the winter (besides bananas of course!). When I was pregnant and craving watermelon like mad I had to buy the pre cut because then I knew the quality, but even then it was hard up until around April-May. Whole foods might be a better source, but also way past my budget.

So I'd say people should supp to at least 2grams a day.

Yes copper has been difficult for me, but I probably meet my quota with liver. I was using zinc to ward off the flu going around in my family and it tastes really bad to me, which says something. Apparently zinc will have no flavor if you need it, I always had a strong bad taste from the challenge test. Selenium I actually get plenty of from wheat, which might be hard for Peatarians if they don't eat oysters or wheat. Molybdenum I tried recently and maybe caused some kind of detox reaction I didn't like it. Minerals are hard to balance through supplements. Do you have any proof ascorbic acid messes with minerals?

 

[Amazoniac]

Do you have any proof ascorbic acid messes with minerals?

I'm pretty sure if it affects iron, it affects all other minerals, including the hard-to-get ones, indirectly or not.

I thought about searching for the vit C intakes if people had an abundant bouqueI mean, buffet available as an experiment, but the majority would select foods based on habits. The reason why I always use farmers as examples is because they're a group of people that usually have ample access to a variety of foods since birth (family business). From knowing quite a few of them and their family, I would guess they consume around 500-1000mg, sometimes a bit more or less. And they have acerolas, guavas, camu-camu, available in insane amounts if they wanted to. They usually eat a moderate amount of fruit and the majority of calories come from starch.

 

[InChristAlone]

I'm pretty sure if it affects iron, it affects all other minerals, including the hard-to-get ones, indirectly or not.

I thought about searching for the vit C intakes if people had an abundant bouqueI mean, buffet available as an experiment, but the majority would select foods based on habits. The reason why I always use farmers as examples is because they're a group of people that usually have ample access to a variety of foods since birth (family business). From knowing quite a few of them and their family, I would guess they consume around 500-1000mg, sometimes a bit more or less. And they have acerolas, guavas, camu-camu, available in insane amounts if they wanted to. They usually eat a moderate amount of fruit and the majority of calories come from starch.

I've never seen anywhere that says it affects all minerals. I know it helps absorb non heme iron. But the more iron in the system the more antioxidant support you need. Some say it lowers ceruloplasmin but some say that is a good thing. Like I said I want to see proof that it would affect any mineral negatively. I think the top things that most negatively effects minerals is caffeine and refined sugar. And those are widely promoted here. (I still consume plenty of sugar but try to do more meals instead of sugary milk and OJ, if I do juice it's always with cheese)

If I'm doing mega doses of C I just make sure to stay hydrated and get enough potassium. Speaking of potassium it was really great... 4.2, it was bottom of range 6 yrs ago. BUN/creatinine is the lowest it's been at 16, when I was feeling pretty yucky and this was an hr after coffee it was highest 28. Range 8-20. so that was good news I'm not seriously dehydrated anymore off all caffeine. Everything else was in range except my liver enzymes are a tiny bit elevated from the cypro for a yr.

 

[Mito]

If a person continues to destroy most dietary vitamin C with heat, then taking two grams should suffice for near‐maximum collagen synthesis; this would certainly help to prevent cardiovascular disease, broken bones, and cataracts.

Urinary organic acid tests measure asorbic acid and use it to indicate nutritional status of Vitamin C. Do you think this test is a meaningful measure of Vitamin C status considering the urine is collected after an overnight fast? I average 1 to 2 grams of vitamin c (according to MyFitnessPal) most days. But my urinary asorbic acid was flagged low. Low means more than two standard deviations below the median (of all males over age 13 that have ever taken the test).

 

[noordinary]

Here is the COA I received with my first batch of vitamin C. Katie, the lady who gets it from China will not sell anything she won't give her children. She did get sick from I believe it was bulk supplements? Can't remember, but now I don't trust any other C.

Lets say that they miss typed in certificate of analyses: mercury pmm, and meant ppm, because idk what pmm is. Correct me if someone knows what is pmm.
Mercury < 2 ppm is broad to say the least.
Something more adequate would be if analysis stated mercury < 0.10 ppm (which is about how it is in smaller tuna, you wouldn't eat as much ascorbic acid as you could tuna though)
Lets take worse case scenario:
1.9 ppm * 1 gramm (vitamin C dose) = 1.9 micrograms of mercury
I wonder why the assey for mecrury is not at least up to one tenth... is it that they dont have the appropriate equipment or they have and it’s 1.99 ppm
I would take tree/fruit filtration system over chinese analyses any day!

 

[InChristAlone]

Lets say that they miss typed in certificate of analyses: mercury pmm, and meant ppm, because idk what pmm is. Correct me if someone knows what is pmm.
Mercury < 2 ppm is broad to say the least.
Something more adequate would be if analysis stated mercury < 0.10 ppm (which is about how it is in smaller tuna, you wouldn't eat as much ascorbic acid as you could tuna though)
Lets take worse case scenario:
1.9 ppm * 1 gramm (vitamin C dose) = 1.9 micrograms of mercury
I wonder why the assey for mecrury is not at least up to one tenth... is it that they dont have the appropriate equipment or they have and it’s 1.99 ppm
I would take tree/fruit filtration system over chinese analyses any day!

I agree they need to figure out the number and not just give a range.

 

[InChristAlone]

Urinary organic acid tests measure asorbic acid and use it to indicate nutritional status of Vitamin C. Do you think this test is a meaningful measure of Vitamin C status considering the urine is collected after an overnight fast? I average 1 to 2 grams of vitamin c (according to MyFitnessPal) most days. But my urinary asorbic acid was flagged low. Low means more than two standard deviations below the median (of all males over age 13 that have ever taken the test).

Now that is interesting.